JesterPilgrim

That might have been an interesting argument, if Dawkins had been in the least bit interested in examining the actual evidence rather than simply interviewing whatever backwater crazies supplied support for his thesis.

Mostly through interviews I've heard on scientific podcasts, but there was also a survey of scientists done a few years ago in which the majority of respondents claimed he stretched evidence beyond the limits most scientists would consider within acceptable parameters, and all to serve his anti-strawman rhetoric. I don't have those studies to hand so can't cite them. All my university papers are archived somewhere in a cupboard.

My point about Dawkins is that the arguments he purports to make against Christianity is against a religion I don't recognise. It's a straw man. He's not even respected among evolutionary biologists. So your bafflement at my belief is mirrored by my bafflement at yours!

The topic was drifting all over the place anyway. Just wanted to pitch in to a conversation that had been going on about Christianity, as I seemed to be the only one who doesn't just go with the flow with popular and ill informed opinions about it.

Am I being divisive?

Is he? Examples, please. And in any case, we all know what "orthodox doctrine" has gifted us. Some of the worst and bloodiest conflicts ever to have disgraced the concept of "civilisation". Just another tool to divide us. I don't have a copy to hand, but basically - every page of the God Delusion and every reference he makes to what he thinks Christians believe. And I'm not going to justify disgraces of "civilisation", but I like how folk conveniently forget the success of civilisation which orthodox doctrine has actually gifted us with.

Take the adjective "Christian" out of that sentence, and it remains entirely true.

Ah, abuse wrapped in "truth" claimed as absolute and inarguable. The best kind of abuse. Pretty much the kind that leads to precisely what you're accusing me of being victim to, but don't worry about it, carry on.

So... no answer? Just abuse? That's fine, I can deal with that. Just wondered if there was anything of any actual substance in your response. Nope. Next.

Cool. So long as you know that the Christianity Dawkins so loves to castigate only actually exists among a handful of American hillbillies. That handful has 6 fingers. He is completely and utterly (and wilfully) misinformed on just about every single aspect of orthodox doctrine.

Yes. Reading Dawkins on theology is like reading A.A.Milne on zoology.

Errrr.... .. "God" needs a 2000 year old text to reveal what "he's" going to do? Bit late in the day, eh? You can't explain what "he's done", 'cos nobody did anything. It just happened. No pre-ordainment, no nothing. Else why bother trying to do anything - 'cos it won't make any difference? "He" is like what those who would control you want "him" to be... otherwise why go to the bother? "You" fit into the picture exactly where you need to fit to be able to be exploited. FFS wake up.... It's not too late. You have got a brain - use it. There is a god..... it lives between your ears. Oh wow, you're right. So persuasive. I'm being so controlled - how did you know? Since you have such a clear view of my life, perhaps you could tell me in what way I'm being controlled?

How? Much of the Bible is God revealing what he's going to do. Much of it is explanation of what he's done. However, all of it is revelation of who he is and what he's like, and where we fit into the picture - those are the primary purposes of it.

Err... have you met my wife? Ha! Well of course it's worth asking the question "What's the point of this conversation?" Other times, having a conversation is simply an indication that the relationship is alive, and needs no further justification.

By the way, this is a conversation that is far more fun over a beer.

I said neither of those things. Sometimes he does... and sometimes the point of the conversation is to have a conversation. Do you always ask yourself what the point of a conversation is with someone you love?

OK, I'll answer your second question first. Your assumption is that [the musicians thought] God had plans for the weather which they wanted changed. The logical corollary from that is: whatever happens is what God wants to happen, unless a Christian asks for something different. That is not Christian theology. The simple answer to your first question (about which many, many books have been written) is that prayer is conversation with God guided by God. It's not some kind of putting God's arm behind his back to force him to do what we want; it's a process whereby we discover what God himself wants.

Wait wait wait, I missed the religion bit of this thread! Just had a read back through things and would like to thank everybody for their permission for me to be what most here appear to consider a deluded and possibly even dangerous individual. I'm a worship pastor in my church (my Dad and his hippy friends prefer to just call me a "priest"). So I'm happy to pray for you all, even if your discussion on prayer completely and utterly misunderstood what prayer actually is (hint: it's not asking for God's plan to change because I have a better one). When I sat down to a fryup at Squires a couple of weeks back on my road trip, I was sat with a couple of random bikers I'd never met who asked me where I was going. I was going to a big event with the church movement I'm a part of. We had a very friendly chat and they decided to dub me "The Preacher". It's a nickname I'm quite comfortable with.

From Fife to Durham via Edinburgh & Jedburgh. Next day to Stafford for a weekend conference (that was the hardest, less pleasant day). Then up near Keswick where I camped overnight before heading back up through the western lowlands.

Thanks! It's Springtime!!!

You're probably right in all you say, but the reality is that I had an amazing time! I took my training in the ice and hail, so figured I had a good head start on bad weather riding - but this was the first long trip and so I'm just reviewing what I can/can't or should/shouldn't do.

Maybe. The wind on Friday was BRUTAL. I was holding on for dear life.

So I just got back from my first lengthy road trip. I have some observations, and a question at the end! 1. Some roads simply shouldn't be on a map. They're just tracks of wet mud between two fields. 2. The United Kingdom is beautiful. 3. Riding on motorways is awful. 4. Heated grips were an absolute Godsend. Earplugs too. 5. Next time, pack DAILY contact lenses. You never know where you might leave the bottle of fluid for the monthlys. Glasses get steamed up too easily. 6. With luggage strapped on the back of the seat, getting on and off is a bit of a merry dance and a hop. 7. Some bikers acknowledge you. Some don't. 8. Filtering is scary but so satisfying. 9. 50mph winds aren't fun but I've discovered I can stay rubber-side down in them. 10. After chatting about Jesus with some random bikers at Squires Cafe, my biker name is now apparently "The Preacher" A QUESTION - my left arm really hurts, all around my elbow. I noticed it hurting on the second day while operating the clutch. Any idea what's going on there? Anything I could change? I noticed that the clutch is in a position where I actually have to straighten my arm to operate it - do you think it would help if I raised it a bit further towards me so that my elbow stays bent?

Apparently there was a load of dirt mixed with grease underneath the throttle shaft. Knowing that I could have dealt with it myself, but I felt myself getting into a tangle with the throttle cable. Anyhoo, the shop sorted it out for free. Nice folk.

Taking it to the shop today.