thoughts new laws on middle lane driving and mobile use

[buggerit]

i just heard its all official now and if you get caught using the middle lane other than overtaking or mobile phone use you will get charged and fined up to £100.

Whilst something needs to be done i cant help feel once again it has a hidden agenda for some revenue. Equally Im not convinced on the speed awareness and other courses that go on. I got put on a course for not wearing a seatbelt and to be honest for me it opened my eyes to the dangers I can do to others in the car so it worked for me. But I work in an office where these courses take place all day and Ive seen some of the same people 2 and 3 times and they just laugh about it. pesonally I think short term penalties like fines and half day courses dont work alone. I think tempory bans would help like 3,6,9 and 12 month bans plus points would help, it would punish them every day whilst they get the bus to work or have to pay more for there insurance due to point increases.Maybe compulsary advanced lessons too, i think it needs to become so much of a pain in the arse they dont dare do it. Mr BMW m3 isnt worried about the £100 bill for using his phone it can come out of his petrol allowance or £60,000 wage.

[Stu]

The problem is if you give out bans left right and centre you will end up with more people on the dole and claiming off the government due to them needing a licence to work thus putting more pressure on the tax payers...... It's a catch 22

Ok it's their own fault for the ban but that's what the points system is for reach 12 points and your banned etc

They need to be tougher on some things but not others ie 80 on a motorway isn't the end of the world same as middle lane hogging

[buggerit]

I agree, i got 3 points for doing 80 ! maybe just take a finger off then every time they get caught using the phone

[buggerit]

maybe they get put on a limited cc so they all have to drive fiat pandas

[klingelton]

I'm all for these new powers afforded to the bobbies. However I'm more than a little worried about abuse of these powers.

scenario 1:

Jim is a motorcyclist riding his GSXR 750 in heavy traffic. On approach to a round about (about 500 yards away), the traffic slows, so Jim elects to filter toward the front. 2 cars from the round about, Jim pulls behind a car and takes the round about. Bobby pulls Jim over and issues him with a £100 fine and 3 points for changing lanes ahead of a round about.

Scenario 2:

Alan has a fireblade. at a set of traffic lights, he filters to the front of the queue positioning himself along side the lead vehicle. when the lights change, Alan accelerates away. Bobby pulls alan over for antisocial riding and issues 3 points and £100 fine.

They have said that you can contest the fines in court, but all it takes is one bobby to not fully understand the law he's applying and you have a whole lot of restless nights, cash spent clearing your name and license and days off work.

[techno]

Take the mobile phone out of it as its already a law and is just a fine increase.

Middle lane hogging tail gating etc just a new revenue generator, thats if there were enough traffic cops to enforce it anyway afterall that's why mobile phones are still a problem.

I'd rather see them now also truly allow undertaking.

[bex]

how about this then, get caught on the phone means you have phone confiscated. if you aint got mot/tax/insurance you car is taken. if you are going to loose your phone and all your contacts then you would think twice.

[TC1474]

So many people seem to be surprised about being booked for hogging the middle lane as if it is something new, but I was booking these inconsiderate morons years ago for Careless driving, or to be more specific, driving without reasonable consideration for other road users which is a sub section of careless driving.

There was an article on the news last night, and I was amazed at how many people said that they sit in the middle lane, even though lane 1 was empty

I was the guest speaker a few weeks ago and the subject was raised and I was asked for my opinion. I threw it back and asked them what they thought the Highway Code said, and the number that responded that it said Slow, fast and overtaking was astounding. 99% did not realise that lane 1 is the driving lane and lanes 2 and 3 were simply overtaking lanes, and then I pulled out a few pictures of Motorway crashes I have dealt with over the years which have occurred as a result of drivers hogging lane 2 and it made a few people take notice and a few cringe.

The same with hand held mobiles. The number of people I see with a phone glued to their ear, which is not only a giveaway, but also causes a physical reduction in the control of their vehicle, and yet for 5 or 6 quid they could get a Bluetooth, but they are quite happy to put themselves and others at risk by continuing to use a hand held, not to mention that it is usually these morons who are the first to moan when they get caught and fined!

Sorry, I will get off my soap box now, rant over

[TC1474]

Take the mobile phone out of it as its already a law and is just a fine increase.

Middle lane hogging tail gating etc just a new revenue generator, thats if there were enough traffic cops to enforce it anyway afterall that's why mobile phones are still a problem.

I'd rather see them now also truly allow undertaking.

 

On the first point re lane hogging and tail gating, sorry, disagree with that comment, long overdue, nothing to do with revenue per se (although it will bring in fines until the message gets through to these morons), but I do agree with regards numbers of traffic police, although with a caveat, properly trained traffic police, as it is not the professional department it once was (although I am biased and old school in that respect )

And in respect of undertaking? Well, I have covered this point on several occasions, it is not illegal.

[klingelton]

We should probably clarify as well, these are not new laws, just the way the BIB are able to deal with them has been changed from everything going through the court system (riddled in bureaucracy) to on the spot fines and points. This bit i agree with, but it does make we worry that we are not far from:

[techno]

Take the mobile phone out of it as its already a law and is just a fine increase.

Middle lane hogging tail gating etc just a new revenue generator, thats if there were enough traffic cops to enforce it anyway afterall that's why mobile phones are still a problem.

I'd rather see them now also truly allow undertaking.

 

On the first point re lane hogging and tail gating, sorry, disagree with that comment, long overdue, nothing to do with revenue per se (although it will bring in fines until the message gets through to these morons), but I do agree with regards numbers of traffic police, although with a caveat, properly trained traffic police, as it is not the professional department it once was (although I am biased and old school in that respect )

And in respect of undertaking? Well, I have covered this point on several occasions, it is not illegal.

No I know its not illegal what I meant but didn't come across is make it more well known its not illegal, still really not too bothered by middle lane hogging, however while not a problem on an empty motorway it did look ridiculous after an accident last week on m62 left it empty.

My wife sort of had a point recently I asked why she didn't move out of outside lane, her reply "nothings coming up behind if it does I will pull over"

I thought was a fair answer and tbh its the ones that don't pull over when faster drivers approach that are the problem.

[TC1474]

My wife sort of had a point recently I asked why she didn't move out of outside lane, her reply "nothings coming up behind if it does I will pull over"

I thought was a fair answer and tbh its the ones that don't pull over when faster drivers approach that are the problem.

 

Fine if you have someone driving who is half decent on their mirrors, but 99% hardly ever use them, but it still does not get away from the fact that in the UK we drive on the left, not on the right, and (without wishing to cause offence) it sort of confirms, given your wife's attitude (and the others) as most being lazy drivers, uneducated and with a complete disregard for the rules that exist on the Motorway.

Most of the uneducated issue lies with the DSA as in the UK, instructors are not allowed and therefore are unable to train drivers how to use Motorways as part of their training.

It is a shame that the majority of drivers cannot spend a day with the Police (well those that are left anyway) on the Motorway to see the sorts of problems are caused by tail gating and centre lane hogging.

But in the same vein, drink drivers or those that think drink driving is OK should be forced to attend a post mortem of someone killed by a drink driver.

[Tankbag]

All phone using drivers need

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa3/tankbag/drone.png

[techno]

My wife sort of had a point recently I asked why she didn't move out of outside lane, her reply "nothings coming up behind if it does I will pull over"

I thought was a fair answer and tbh its the ones that don't pull over when faster drivers approach that are the problem.

 

Fine if you have someone driving who is half decent on their mirrors, but 99% hardly ever use them, but it still does not get away from the fact that in the UK we drive on the left, not on the right, and (without wishing to cause offence) it sort of confirms, given your wife's attitude (and the others) as most being lazy drivers, uneducated and with a complete disregard for the rules that exist on the Motorway.

 

Lol no offence its why I asked her in this instance, I've long learned not to mention some of the things the wife does but overall she's a decent driver

[klingelton]

My father in law is a worrying driver. He admits he struggles with the reverse gear (tends to plough into most things) but thinks he's good driving forward.

- He rarely uses his indicators,

- he drives much too quickly

- his vehicle control isn't great

- his lane discipline is appauling

They live in the middle of nowhere and what worries me is that he will just simply have his license taken from him without recourse. I hope people are given the chance to improve their driving before they lose their license. IMHO, people need a little education as to what they're doing wrong (myself included in this).

The wifes only main problem is her tailgating, which she doesn't do deliberately. I've tried telling her a couple of times to back it up a little bit, but she sees nothing wrong with what she's doing. I'm not going to change her, I'm better off letting her re-arrange the front end of her car.

[TC1474]

My father in law is a worrying driver. He admits he struggles with the reverse gear (tends to plough into most things) but thinks he's good driving forward.

- He rarely uses his indicators,

- he drives much too quickly

- his vehicle control isn't great

- his lane discipline is appauling

They live in the middle of nowhere and what worries me is that he will just simply have his license taken from him without recourse. I hope people are given the chance to improve their driving before they lose their license. IMHO, people need a little education as to what they're doing wrong (myself included in this).

The wifes only main problem is her tailgating, which she doesn't do deliberately. I've tried telling her a couple of times to back it up a little bit, but she sees nothing wrong with what she's doing. I'm not going to change her, I'm better off letting her re-arrange the front end of her car.

 

What you have done though is highlight the problem that has been know in professional circles for years, and that is most people believe that they are a good driver (or rider for that matter) despite the fact that since passing their test the majority have never taken any further training or even picked up the Highway Code.

Many people believe that once they pass their test their is nothing more to learn, and refuse to accept that the learning process is an ongoing process and that experience will be sufficient, and that is worrying.

And then finally, look how many bar room experts there are out there. Give you an example, look at this forum when a legal question is asked and how many will offer "Expert" advice or opinion, but the answers and opinions are usually based on nothing more than what they heard a mate say down the pub

[YammyRider]

My wife sort of had a point recently I asked why she didn't move out of outside lane, her reply "nothings coming up behind if it does I will pull over"

I thought was a fair answer and tbh its the ones that don't pull over when faster drivers approach that are the problem.

 

Fine if you have someone driving who is half decent on their mirrors, but 99% hardly ever use them, but it still does not get away from the fact that in the UK we drive on the left, not on the right, and (without wishing to cause offence) it sort of confirms, given your wife's attitude (and the others) as most being lazy drivers, uneducated and with a complete disregard for the rules that exist on the Motorway.

 

Lol no offence its why I asked her in this instance, I've long learned not to mention some of the things the wife does but overall she's a decent driver

 

Just a thought on this, your supposed to return to the inside lane so your not cutting across 3 lanes to leave the motorway and it makes the road easier for drivers to read (what people are doing etc). Surely if your doing 70mph (the speed limit!) in the outside lane then no one should be up your arse or trying to overtake as they wouldn't be able to without speeding.

The faster drivers who are clearly breaking the law are just as much the problem.

[YammyRider]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the changes to the fines etc. It is a better deterrent/punishment.

The only things that worry me are the police officers application of "justice", the fact that IMHO, despite what anyone might ever say, I believe police officers/areas etc have targets to hit or a promotion/reward based system for how many fines and tickets are issued each month. And the greedy government obviously.

[TC1474]

Just a thought on this, your supposed to return to the inside lane so your not cutting across 3 lanes to leave the motorway and it makes the road easier for drivers to read (what people are doing etc). Surely if your doing 70mph (the speed limit!) in the outside lane then no one should be up your arse or trying to overtake as they wouldn't be able to without speeding.

The faster drivers who are clearly breaking the law are just as much the problem.

 

If the intention is to leave at the next exit, then drivers should be in lane 1 by the time they reach the half mile marker, (if in a strange or unfamiliar area, then the mile marker is the clue) and at latest by the 300 yard countdown marker.

You are right, many drivers (and riders) leave it until the last second before cutting across from lane 3 to lane 1 and that would be sufficient to prosecute for certainly careless, maybe even dangerous driving, especially if they have caused another road user to alter course or speed because of their actions. And this would be on top of any excess speed issues.

[TC1474]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the changes to the fines etc. It is a better deterrent/punishment.

The only things that worry me are the police officers application of "justice", the fact that IMHO, despite what anyone might ever say, I believe police officers/areas etc have targets to hit or a promotion/reward based system for how many fines and tickets are issued each month. And the greedy government obviously.

 

Well on the Motorway, only Traffic cops can report for offences, and by and large it is very rare for them to get it wrong (I am not saying they do not get it wrong from time to time) but you still have the option to dispute the facts and go to court and contest it.

There are no targets to hit. In this country, unlike many others we have what is called Policing by consent, in other word we are policed by fellow citizens and our peers, as opposed to a military based police service in many other countries. Yes you do get the power Nazi's, but then whatever career path you take, every barrel has its fair share of bad apples.

And if promotions and rewards were based on results, I would have retired as a Chief Constable living in a 6 bedroom luxury house with a econd home in the south of France

You do not get promoted unless you pass the exams (There are 3, Traffic, Crime and General Police Duties) and the overall pas mark has to be something like 80%

I always got about 90% on traffic, 10% on crime and about 1% on GPD and the only rewards are paid overtime.

So sorry, have to take issue with your comment, clearly you have no understanding of how the UK system of policing works

[techno]

My father in law is a worrying driver. He admits he struggles with the reverse gear (tends to plough into most things) but thinks he's good driving forward.

- He rarely uses his indicators,

- he drives much too quickly

- his vehicle control isn't great

- his lane discipline is appauling

They live in the middle of nowhere and what worries me is that he will just simply have his license taken from him without recourse. I hope people are given the chance to improve their driving before they lose their license. IMHO, people need a little education as to what they're doing wrong (myself included in this).

The wifes only main problem is her tailgating, which she doesn't do deliberately. I've tried telling her a couple of times to back it up a little bit, but she sees nothing wrong with what she's doing. I'm not going to change her, I'm better off letting her re-arrange the front end of her car.

 

What you have done though is highlight the problem that has been know in professional circles for years, and that is most people believe that they are a good driver (or rider for that matter) despite the fact that since passing their test the majority have never taken any further training or even picked up the Highway Code.

Many people believe that once they pass their test their is nothing more to learn, and refuse to accept that the learning process is an ongoing process and that experience will be sufficient, and that is worrying.

And then finally, look how many bar room experts there are out there. Give you an example, look at this forum when a legal question is asked and how many will offer "Expert" advice or opinion, but the answers and opinions are usually based on nothing more than what they heard a mate say down the pub

I can see your point however as most people would and it has been said on here many times putting in the miles is how you improve, its how we as humans improve in many areas through experience and muscle memory, reactions become simply second nature, now seeing how some drive obviously it would seem it doesn't work for some but no one on here would say regardless of other training they aren't a better rider or driver now than when passing a test and personally I would have to agree.

Its been said we learn from our mistakes and on the bike that's usually an off.

Just a side thought I wonder how many (and I'm not sure on the law on this) people now driving in the UK don't have or have never passed a UK test?

Could it have a bearing on declining driving standards or is it just a perception due to increased traffic volume?

[Tango]

My thoughts on it?........will probably not be enforced very rigorously......and most people will be oblivious to it anyway....or simply bloody minded enough to ignore it..... Is it likely to make any difference to my journeys?......No!!...

[TC]

What about people that don't use bus lanes when they are not in force ie, out of the hours stated.

I drive up the inside lane (bus lane) all the time. which means I end up undertaking all the traffic.

My question is i'm being forced to break the law by someone that doesn't know the law or decides to do their own thing.

[Matt Strange]

Re: undertaking, there is a difference between undertaking and passing on the left.

AFAIK undertaking is a potential offence, particular if it has been deemed to be the cause of an acident:

 

Highway code 163: only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so

stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, you may pass on the left

[Ali in Austria]

Well on the Motorway, only Traffic cops can report for offences, and by and large it is very rare for them to get it wrong (I am not saying they do not get it wrong from time to time) but you still have the option to dispute the facts and go to court and contest it.

There are no targets to hit. In this country, unlike many others we have what is called Policing by consent, in other word we are policed by fellow citizens and our peers, as opposed to a military based police service in many other countries. Yes you do get the power Nazi's, but then whatever career path you take, every barrel has its fair share of bad apples.

And if promotions and rewards were based on results, I would have retired as a Chief Constable living in a 6 bedroom luxury house with a econd home in the south of France

You do not get promoted unless you pass the exams (There are 3, Traffic, Crime and General Police Duties) and the overall pas mark has to be something like 80%

I always got about 90% on traffic, 10% on crime and about 1% on GPD and the only rewards are paid overtime.

So sorry, have to take issue with your comment, clearly you have no understanding of how the UK system of policing works

 

Have they changed the law since I retired 5 years ago and subsequently emigrated?

I spent 26 years doing immediate response and although I was motorway trained, I was not a Traffic Officer. I was regularly despatched to the motorway to deal with incidents and regularly dealt with offenders on the motorway.

My knowledge of Traffic, Crime & GPD was pretty good as it should be for my role. I wouldn't like to think anyone might waste their time and money challenging a ticket for an offence they think the officer isn't qualified to issue when actually he may well be.

Criticising someones driving standard always brought more protest and even abuse than dealing with a thieving scum bag. I really can't see the argument against issuing tickets for these offences. It is a means of streamlining the system and freeing up court time. If you want to challenge the ticket, opt for a court hearing which after all was the only option before they introduced this.

If you don't want a ticket, don't do it simples