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mind you, his copper was a bit bonkers and had them both overtaking everything in sight at well beyond the NSL - mine seemed a bit tamer - do they match cops with riders do you think? :lol: )

 

This is one of the issues I have with Bikesafe.


The whole concept was designed by my old buddy Phil Curtis (who is no longer with us RIP) and the intention was to introduce riders to the principles of advanced riding, give them a taster and encourage riders to take further training.


The trouble is that shortly after it was introduced, many forces either reduced or did away with their bike fleets and so there were less people obtaining the class 1 qualification, most having a class 3 or standard ticket which is only just above the basic DSA test standard.


However, there is a difference between being able to ride to a standard, and being able to ride to a standard and then assess, diagnose and then rectify the standards of others, and this is where the system falls down.


Firstly, I have heard many people say that they have an advanced qualification because they have done a Police advanced course which turns out to be Bikesafe. Bikesafe is not a course as such, just an introduction, and so it amazes me that insurers will offer discounts to someone who has done a few hours of introductory advanced riding, but those who have worked their butt off to attain the highest standard that they can are not recognised. I even had one insurer tell me that Bikesafe was a higher qualification than my Police class 1 or my examiner qualifications :shock: which goes to prove that many insurers do not have the first idea of the market they are in.


The second issue is the number of times I have heard someone say that their Bikesafe instructor encouraged breaking the national speed limits.


I have 2 problems with this. Firstly, as an instructor/assessor you are riding with someone whose ability is an unknown quantity. Therefore how can you assess someone properly when the emphasis is on making progress when they should be looking at how they position the bike, assess a corner, how they read the road and so on.


The first rule of any instruction is start slow, diagnose the key points and as the knowledge and ability develops speed develops naturally as a by product.


But most relevant is the speed issue. No one can authorise someone to exceed speed limits, and my point is that if someone had a crash with a copper behind them doing an above the speed limit ride, I bet a pound to a pinch of sh1t that the copper would turn round and say that the student was told to stay within limits (in other words drop the rider in the poo) or, on the ride home with your new found knowledge and pinching a few miles an hour the same copper would be stood there ready to write out a ticket.


What I am getting at is that there appears to be a culture of double standards by many coppers who are not much better qualified than some of those they are assessing.


I was talking to a Bikesafe copper a few weeks ago, and he was trying to encourage me to enroll and do a course. I asked him how it would benefit me and he made some comment that made my ears prick up (I cannot remember exactly what it was now) but he went on a ramble just digging a bigger and bigger hole for himself, but mainly bigging himself up.


Anyway the offshot was I asked him if he held a class 1 or 2 and the response was "I am a standard rider" (class 2) and they no longer have class 1 or 2 qualified riders :shock: But they were setting themselves up as the experts.


It was quite funny when he kept pushing me to enroll (given that I was not from this particular area anyway) and I replied thhat maybe I could teach him something based on what he had told me. I then told him my qualifications :wink: His face was a picture :D


The point is, the concept of Bikesafe is brilliant, as a PR exercise it can do so much good, but it is the application that lets it down with its double standards and I am sure that poor old Phil would be turning in his grave if he could see how his baby has developed.

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mind you, his copper was a bit bonkers and had them both overtaking everything in sight at well beyond the NSL - mine seemed a bit tamer - do they match cops with riders do you think? :lol: )

 

This is one of the issues I have with Bikesafe.


The whole concept was designed by my old buddy Phil Curtis (who is no longer with us RIP) and the intention was to introduce riders to the principles of advanced riding, give them a taster and encourage riders to take further training.


The trouble is that shortly after it was introduced, many forces either reduced or did away with their bike fleets and so there were less people obtaining the class 1 qualification, most having a class 3 or standard ticket which is only just above the basic DSA test standard.


However, there is a difference between being able to ride to a standard, and being able to ride to a standard and then assess, diagnose and then rectify the standards of others, and this is where the system falls down.


Firstly, I have heard many people say that they have an advanced qualification because they have done a Police advanced course which turns out to be Bikesafe. Bikesafe is not a course as such, just an introduction, and so it amazes me that insurers will offer discounts to someone who has done a few hours of introductory advanced riding, but those who have worked their butt off to attain the highest standard that they can are not recognised. I even had one insurer tell me that Bikesafe was a higher qualification than my Police class 1 or my examiner qualifications :shock: which goes to prove that many insurers do not have the first idea of the market they are in.


The second issue is the number of times I have heard someone say that their Bikesafe instructor encouraged breaking the national speed limits.


I have 2 problems with this. Firstly, as an instructor/assessor you are riding with someone whose ability is an unknown quantity. Therefore how can you assess someone properly when the emphasis is on making progress when they should be looking at how they position the bike, assess a corner, how they read the road and so on.


The first rule of any instruction is start slow, diagnose the key points and as the knowledge and ability develops speed develops naturally as a by product.


But most relevant is the speed issue. No one can authorise someone to exceed speed limits, and my point is that if someone had a crash with a copper behind them doing an above the speed limit ride, I bet a pound to a pinch of sh1t that the copper would turn round and say that the student was told to stay within limits (in other words drop the rider in the poo) or, on the ride home with your new found knowledge and pinching a few miles an hour the same copper would be stood there ready to write out a ticket.


What I am getting at is that there appears to be a culture of double standards by many coppers who are not much better qualified than some of those they are assessing.


I was talking to a Bikesafe copper a few weeks ago, and he was trying to encourage me to enroll and do a course. I asked him how it would benefit me and he made some comment that made my ears prick up (I cannot remember exactly what it was now) but he went on a ramble just digging a bigger and bigger hole for himself, but mainly bigging himself up.


Anyway the offshot was I asked him if he held a class 1 or 2 and the response was "I am a standard rider" (class 2) and they no longer have class 1 or 2 qualified riders :shock: But they were setting themselves up as the experts.


It was quite funny when he kept pushing me to enroll (given that I was not from this particular area anyway) and I replied thhat maybe I could teach him something based on what he had told me. I then told him my qualifications :wink: His face was a picture :D


The point is, the concept of Bikesafe is brilliant, as a PR exercise it can do so much good, but it is the application that lets it down with its double standards and I am sure that poor old Phil would be turning in his grave if he could see how his baby has developed.

 

But I found the dame problem with the IAM...all my so called "instructor" was interested in was speed through corners. He could go at speed through the routes he knew and expected me to do the same, then when I tried to explain he informed me that my job was to listen not to argue.

When I complained about the attitude of the instructor suddenly I was the one at fault and that included the IAM itself. I would never advise anyone round here to do their course as I feel many of their so called instructors are merely on an ego trip.

Never again. I know I can ride so who the hell cares if I do or do not have a certificate...whoopppee do...

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But I found the dame problem with the IAM...all my so called "instructor" was interested in was speed through corners. He could go at speed through the routes he knew and expected me to do the same, then when I tried to explain he informed me that my job was to listen not to argue.

 

That is a fair point you make and something I have heard myself in the past.


It also shows a level of arrogance on the part of the instructor, because it needs the student to understand and appreciate the points being made to the point that if it is qualified, then the likelihood is that you will take that information on board.


I have always encouraged students or candidates to ask questions, the aim being that they take on board the points being made so that they have an alternative view point.


Advanced riding is not cast in stone, it is about taking all the information on board and applying the parts that you feel are appropriate.


It is most definitely not about speed, it is about giving riders the tools that allows them to make progress should they wish wish and if circumstances are appropriate. Some of the best riders i have known have also been some of the "Slowest" riders (which I appreciate is subjective), but instructors should never be so arrogant as to think that their word is final.


You can have several different riders who all deal with the same hazard differently but safely. Who is to say who is right or wrong?


If it is done safely without a twitchy bum moment, then just because someone has dealt with it differently to say how I would deal with the hazard does not mean that person was wrong.


But unfortunately their are some instructors who are power junkies and make up for their lack of knowledge with arrogance.

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But I found the dame problem with the IAM...all my so called "instructor" was interested in was speed through corners. He could go at speed through the routes he knew and expected me to do the same, then when I tried to explain he informed me that my job was to listen not to argue.

When I complained about the attitude of the instructor suddenly I was the one at fault and that included the IAM itself. I would never advise anyone round here to do their course as I feel many of their so called instructors are merely on an ego trip.

Never again. I know I can ride so who the hell cares if I do or do not have a certificate...whoopppee do...

 

I've heard much the same about the Thames Valley IAM group that meet in Wokingham (please tell me you're not one of them TC before I slag them off :lol: ). Having a chat with an instructor at the school I did my licence test with he'd just dropped IAM. Chatting with another ex-student of the school about his going along for obvserved rides and he said they were basically telling him which limits he could ignore and they are very focussed on "making progress". When he asked what qualifications the observer had to approve his breaking the law it got fairly snippy apparently.

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I've heard much the same about the Thames Valley IAM group that meet in Wokingham (please tell me you're not one of them TC before I slag them off :lol: ). Having a chat with an instructor at the school I did my licence test with he'd just dropped IAM. Chatting with another ex-student of the school about his going along for obvserved rides and he said they were basically telling him which limits he could ignore and they are very focussed on "making progress". When he asked what qualifications the observer had to approve his breaking the law it got fairly snippy apparently.

 

Rest assured, I am not a member of TVAM, and I have had people tell me similar things to what you have mentioned. As you rightly say, what authorises the observer to decide which limits can be ignored :roll: But then for many years their slogan was something along the lines of "Its not how fast you ride but how you ride fast" :shock:


A few years ago I had to examine one of the chief poo bas. As part of the briefing I told him to ride normally and naturally and whilst I would allow a little bit of discretion on NSL roads if conditions were appropriate, I expected all posted restricted limits to be complied with.


Well, to cut a long story short, we (he) entered the first 30 at around 60, and the next 2 or 3 limits were identical. he did not even get the hint when I dropped off the pace and he went flying off into the distance (this was the day before radios were the norm).


Anyway, I terminated the test and failed him and he really threw his toys out of the pram questioning my ability to tell him what he was doing wrong and that at his level he should be able to pick and choose what limits he chose to comply with or ignore :shock:


Turned out that he was teaching students exactly the same, and this was from a senior observer/instructor.


Didn't like it when I asked him what would have happened had one of his students had a big off whilst under instruction and causation was down to excess speed because it had been instructed to do so, or if they had picked up a speeding ticket, bearing in mind that even though they are volunteers, they are deemed as instructors for the purpose of civil law and they have a legal duty of care.


Talk about throw his toys out of the pram, but I have come across this sort of attitude on a few occasions.


But, I would also add that there are some very very good instructors out there and there are some very very good groups. I have been fortunate to visit many when I am invited to attend as a guest speaker, and when I see the effort and commitment that many of these volunteers make, it makes me think that all in not wrong with the world :cheers:

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But, I would also add that there are some very very good instructors out there and there are some very very good groups. I have been fortunate to visit many when I am invited to attend as a guest speaker, and when I see the effort and commitment that many of these volunteers make, it makes me think that all in not wrong with the world :cheers:

 

TC - are there any groups in the East Midlands that you'd recommend?


I've been wanting to do an advanced course for a good while, now, but a lot of this talk has made me wary of choosing a bad instructor...

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But, I would also add that there are some very very good instructors out there and there are some very very good groups. I have been fortunate to visit many when I am invited to attend as a guest speaker, and when I see the effort and commitment that many of these volunteers make, it makes me think that all in not wrong with the world :cheers:

 

TC - are there any groups in the East Midlands that you'd recommend?


I've been wanting to do an advanced course for a good while, now, but a lot of this talk has made me wary of choosing a bad instructor...

 

Derby RoSPA advanced riders is a quite new group, and having met them, although only a small group at the moment, they have some good guys and they try to put over the message in the right way.


Their website is not up and running yet but their contact details are at http://www.roadar.org/groups/east-midla ... riders.htm


There is also a Nottingham advanced riders group which is IAM affiliated, but I don't know a great deal about them.


Hope this is of some help

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I wrote this a couple of years ago, and although it is a couple of years old, most of it is still relevant, so you may find it helpful in deciding who you will give your hard earnt cash to or who you will trust with in affect your life.


One of the most commonly asked questions I get, is how do I know if my instructor is suitably qualified or is going to teach me the right things, and some have had bad experiences because they have found out their instructor is not as good as they were led to believe the hard way. As a result, they have followed their instructors advice in the belief that "It is the advanced way" when in fact what they were taught not only goes against the grain of what we seek to achieve at advanced level, but is downright dangerous.


Now you as members of the public often have to take someone on face value, and if someone says that they can teach you to a higher level, who are you to question their ability? Well you would be right to question their qualifications in order to ensure that the training you will be given is from a suitably qualified or competent person. So what questions should you ask. Well here are a few to start with!


1 How long have you been riding? There are some instructors who only do 2 - 3K miles a year and struggle to keep up let alone instruct.


2. How long have you been instructing, and at what level. There are quite a few CBT and DAS instructors jumping on the advanced bandwagon and feel that because they are qualified to teach learners, they can also teach more experienced/advanced students.


3. What advanced riding qualifications do you have? You should get an answer along the lines of Police class 1, RoSPA diploma, IAM Observer, RoSPA gold, Btec level 3 or 4 qualified advanced instructor. Anything else like self taught advanced instructors or having no formal advanced qualification, or I spent 15 years as a courier so I am well qualified should be treated with suspicion.


4. What sort of courses do you run? Do they do assessments, full courses, do they run groups of three, four or more, do they specialise in smaller groups? If they say that they like to work with groups any larger than 4, find someone else.


5. Which advanced test do you recommend, and what sort of pass rate have you obtained? Bit of a silly question if you are joining an IAM or RoSPA group, but it is a worthwhile question if you are going to an independant trainer. If he/she favours RoSPA, how many of his students have attained Gold grade? If IAM how many have simply passed the test.


6. Can the trainer provide some references from students he /she has trained in the past. If he is a quality instructor and you have some doubts about their ability to do the job, then he should be quite happy to put you in touch with previous students where you can discuss the potential of the instructor you are considering.


If any of the above questions cannot be answered satisfactorily, then walk away and find someone else, there are plenty more properly qualified instructors out there.


In addition to the IAM pass, there is now the IAM Masters which is on a par with the RoSPA Gold grade (and which I have to say appears impressive)


But I hope this gives any of you considering enrolling with a group or instructor a few pointers, although the list is not exhaustive.

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Although I agree with many points made, and it is a very interesting read, and some of the stories seem like the instructors are right plonkers...there has to be an acknowledgement that most riders will at some time, especially given a clear NSL with good weather and visibility, stretch the speed limit slightly


I'm not saying the instructor should speed - and I never would under full test conditions - but if the pupil is allowed to do as they see fit, at their own risk and understanding the instructor does not have control over the students throttle, surely that is more of a real world type learning experience?


The school I learnt at did official courses (ROSPA/IAM) and their own in house 'masterclass' where they would tailor it to you, from slow speed to pillion carrying to motorways to higher speed country lane riding - all depends what the 'pupil' felt needed extra work.


All people complain about the car driving test, that is has very little bearing on how people really drive once they've passed. And to be fair I've said the same thing about the u turn on MOD 1...I think I've done 1 u turn since I passed and it was on a road twice the size of the test centre lines! So tbh if I did an IAM or other....I would want it to reflect the real world. Whats the point in me doing 50 behind a car on a NSL because I'm on IAM...I know what I'd do if I was on my own, and I'd rather an instructor give me advice based on what I actually do, not what I pretend to do.

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Although I agree with many points made, and it is a very interesting read, and some of the stories seem like the instructors are right plonkers...there has to be an acknowledgement that most riders will at some time, especially given a clear NSL with good weather and visibility, stretch the speed limit slightly


I'm not saying the instructor should speed - and I never would under full test conditions - but if the pupil is allowed to do as they see fit, at their own risk and understanding the instructor does not have control over the students throttle, surely that is more of a real world type learning experience?


The school I learnt at did official courses (ROSPA/IAM) and their own in house 'masterclass' where they would tailor it to you, from slow speed to pillion carrying to motorways to higher speed country lane riding - all depends what the 'pupil' felt needed extra work.


All people complain about the car driving test, that is has very little bearing on how people really drive once they've passed. And to be fair I've said the same thing about the u turn on MOD 1...I think I've done 1 u turn since I passed and it was on a road twice the size of the test centre lines! So tbh if I did an IAM or other....I would want it to reflect the real world. Whats the point in me doing 50 behind a car on a NSL because I'm on IAM...I know what I'd do if I was on my own, and I'd rather an instructor give me advice based on what I actually do, not what I pretend to do.

 

I have no issues with the points you have made. On NSL roads I will also allow riders to pinch a bit if circumstances allow, although I still enforce 30's, 40's and 50's.


However as I have tried to point out (probably not very clearly) is that when you have someone who you have never seen, you have no idea of whet their standards are, not only does it cause a potential problem if it goes pear shaped, but it is nigh on dammed near impossible to be able to provide a constructive critique or diagnosis of a persons ride when they are barreling off down the road at warp 5.


Any instruction has to start from a consistent base or platform so that the improvements can be measured. rattling down the road at 100MPH is not going to give that base to work from.


As I also mentioned, instruction should start slow, and then as they become more accurate with their positioning, forward observation, planning, observation links, confidence grows at a natural pace and thereby their speed increases naturally but at a controllable rate, thereby allowing the receiving student to appreciate the noticeable difference over a period of time.

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Just to jump back in here........my observer made it quite clear that he would enforce 30,40 & 50 limits.....there was no misunderstanding there.......but on NSL roads I could pinch a bit....... :wink:

These guys are bikers....they know the score.....they will not pretend that they don't know that most bikers will stretch the limit.....but the emphasis is on safety..... 8-)

I rode for a bit in front.....and I know that the observer was assessing my riding and looking for weak spots....when he then took over in the lead I was to follow and basically do what he did.....positioning, observation, etc....this was done at a reasonable speed....which in effect is "real world" speed.....but I'm sure the speed we rode at was what he had assessed I was capable and comfortable with....we're not talking silly speeds here..... 8-)

It was not about "making progress"...it was about riding safely.....using planning, positioning and observation to ride at a reasonable speed and do it safely.

The overtakes we did were again to demonstrate the best way to achieve it in the safest way possible.....and again using the planning, positioning and observation to execute the manouvre as safely as possible.... 8-)

I've been riding bikes for the better part of 40 years......and I think I came away from the Bikesafe course with some valuable skills......ones that could possibly save my life.

The guys made no illusion that Bikesafe is "bridging the gap" between your DSA test and further Advanced training.....it was not a substitute for taking IAM or RoSPA training.....but a stepping stone.

I'm really pleased that I did it.....and I think Mandy is too......so I would encourage anyone who has not done it to seriously think about it.......JMHO of course..... 8-)

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To carry on with the 'bridging the gap' comment - I had the same - my instructor was very keen to push us to do a full course.


Anyway, I still think it was well worth it (especially as mine was freeee!) and would reccomend it to anyone who has not already got advanced rider quals

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Just to jump back in here........my observer made it quite clear that he would enforce 30,40 & 50 limits.....there was no misunderstanding there.......but on NSL roads I could pinch a bit....... :wink:

These guys are bikers....they know the score.....they will not pretend that they don't know that most bikers will stretch the limit.....but the emphasis is on safety..... 8-)

I rode for a bit in front.....and I know that the observer was assessing my riding and looking for weak spots....when he then took over in the lead I was to follow and basically do what he did.....positioning, observation, etc....this was done at a reasonable speed....which in effect is "real world" speed.....but I'm sure the speed we rode at was what he had assessed I was capable and comfortable with....we're not talking silly speeds here..... 8-)

It was not about "making progress"...it was about riding safely.....using planning, positioning and observation to ride at a reasonable speed and do it safely.

The overtakes we did were again to demonstrate the best way to achieve it in the safest way possible.....and again using the planning, positioning and observation to execute the manouvre as safely as possible.... 8-)

I've been riding bikes for the better part of 40 years......and I think I came away from the Bikesafe course with some valuable skills......ones that could possibly save my life.

The guys made no illusion that Bikesafe is "bridging the gap" between your DSA test and further Advanced training.....it was not a substitute for taking IAM or RoSPA training.....but a stepping stone.

I'm really pleased that I did it.....and I think Mandy is too......so I would encourage anyone who has not done it to seriously think about it.......JMHO of course..... 8-)

 

If it has met your goals and expectations, then that is terrific and I am delighted for you, and I mean that sincerely.


As I have said there are good and bad out there, and I was not intending to tar everyone with the same brush, it is just unfortunate that I hear many of the shall we say "naughty" stories, and in cases where the "Student" has no previous or limited experience of what is required of advanced riding technique, it can be a scary or intimidating experience.


It still does not get away from the fact that many do the course and then think that because they have done the course they are qualified advanced riders, and which is not helped by the fact that insurers offer a discount for having attended the course.


And this was the point that I was trying to make (although badly) in the first place.

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I was just getting a little concerned that the "bad" experiences catalogued above were likely to put riders off taking the course.... :(

The cop who did the classroom bit is an accident investigator......he has a phone on his belt and said that when that phone goes off it is never good news......he is being called to investigate an accident where someone has lost their life or has received potentially life changing injuries......and as a keen biker he is often saddened to see the aftermath of an accident that could have been avoided if the rider had received even some fairly basic additional training.... :(

Bikesafe is a stepping stone.....but even with the knowledge gained from the Bikesafe training there are tecniques that could save someones life..... 8-)

I certainly didn't do it to reduce my bike insurance premiums.......they are low enough already......but if that alone encourages some riders to participate in Bikesafe, then I think that's a positive...... 8-)

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Sorry Bob, minor thread hijack :)


Definitely would be something I'm interested in doing. I've looked at advanced training all along which is when I got into the discussion about TVAM with my instructor. Let's face it, anyone who can teach me anything (and there are a LOT of people who are better than me :) ) is a good thing. Do I want to lower my insurance? Wouldn't mind but that's not why, I want to be able to enjoy the bike more.


Got a mate said that Derbyshire were offering reduced IAM skills for life courses off the back of the Bikesafe. Spoke to the guy who organises it and he didn't push the Bikesafe particularly but said they were just interested in safety and training and have all sorts of offers on other further training: they've got discounts on the ERS training thing and said they do discounts on the Derby IAM group if you say you've gone through him. Definitely something to look into I feel. How far's Derby for you Gaz?

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Hmm. Great info TC!


I echo what some people say here about IAM - I did the advanced driving course in Kent a good few years ago and found the instructors to be rather stuffy and rigid - I found it a chore going if I'm being honest but I was only 20ish at the time and needless to say I didn't keep it up.


A couple of years later I did another another driving course with my previous job, I thought I'd piss through it because I had IAM already but I found it much more challenging and rewarding. It really was about driving to my capabilities/conditions/other road users etc but within the confines of my license rather than "bottom of the tyres of the car infront" stuff.


I've often thought about doing an IAM rider or other bike course but I really wouldn't be interested unless it was FUN or if the instructor was less experienced or qualified than me. (Recommendations for Cambridge area anyone? ;-) )

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  • 2 weeks later...

OK.....I have literally just got in from doing the Bikesafe Course in Lincoln...I'm knackered after 3 hrs of riding and 1 hr classroom work...but very very happy...


I had a 1:1 with an ex Police high speed motorcyclist....He gave me excellent feedback starting with, after the first section...You are clearly an excellent rider we just need to get you into and out of corners better...and explanation followed of what he wanted me to do, then I followed him for a couple of miles and he let me passed and we then rode some extremely twisty roads in Lincolnshire with him once again observing me...


anyway I wont bore you with my ride as it was fantastic....possibly the best 3 hrs riding I have ever done...but


Following my experience with the IAM rthat I have described earlier my confidence was low...I never felt as if I was cornering well at all....turns out this wasnt true....so I clearly did learn a lot from the IAM ...


The point I am trying to get to is this course was well worth the money to me as it has given me the confidence to ride again to the level that I knew I could be...so if you get the opportunity do it..


I learnt a lot ...especially about tyres and adhesion to road surfaces..


Following on from this guys feedback I will be re joining the IAM and taking my test...which, according to him I should have no trouble passing at a high level...


sorry but Woohooo....there is nothing like being told you are doing something right...

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