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Emplyment question


Phooey
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Guys, do you know what the consequences of not working out the required notice period could be?


I am supposed to give 3 months notice if I leave my current job but I have just applied for a position that should I be successful I will be required to start at the end of April ... NOT allowing the required 3 months notice. My wife seems to think that they could stop any accrued holiday pay but that's it. Your thoughts? Obviously I don't want to be asking my employer these questions!


Paul

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Yeah basically you're going to forfeit everything they would have paid you - the notice period, outstanding wages, and owed holiday.


Depends on the job, some will let you just go early, especially if you were on gardening leave anyway and the new job isn't going to leave them open to you using sensitive information.

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They can't not pay you anything. It's unlawful to withhold any wages you are owed or holidays accrued. Basically all you would be sacrificing is a reference.


They may try to withhold wages, but you would win if you contested it. It's unlawful to not pay someone what they have already earned. Not only that, it's screwing over the tax man, as they would have to pay tax on the monies owed to you, by withholding money, not only are they not paying you, they are withholding money from the tax man. If you contacted HMRC if they did withhold it, they would get investigated, and if found guilty (which they would be) the tax office would nail their hats on. Most people would just accept not getting the money, but if you start to explain things like that they will shit themselves for want of a better term.


My dads Mrs is a company director who specialises in employment law she has to make sure the company abide by the law in any disciplinery proceedings to make sure they don't leave the company open to tribunals. I've had similar dealings in the past. Although I walked out of a job before I chinned someone. They tried to withhold my last wage and holiday pay owed which was about 19 days at £80 a day at the time.


I got the entire amount within 3 days of a meeting I had with a member of their HR team. I just used a load of stuff she'd written down for me in the meeting.

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they can't take holiday entitlement off you as its a legal requirement to give you it


I would speak to them and dont just drop it on them


that way they may just pay you what you are entitled to and not penalise you

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The concept of a 3 month notice period is a dodgy idea as it would be deemed to be an unfair contract clause imposed on you to get the job, as it makes it very difficult to obtain another job because almost no propesctive employer would wait that long unless it was for a very senior post, in which case you would be in an almost as senior executive post now. In practise all they could do is sue you for breach of contract and would have to value their direct losses AND justify to the court why they imposed a 3 month notice period. If they can establish that you can counter by asking why they paid you so little. In practise it wont happen.

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Your prospective new employers should understand if your current employers are pissed off because of the short notice, but employers commit an offence if they lie or withold a reference or make any untrue comments, they can be sued for libel.

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My dads Mrs is a company director who specialises in employment law she has to make sure the company abide by the law ...

 

 

I might need to borrow some of these quotes then Gaz lol

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Your prospective new employers should understand if your current employers are pissed off because of the short notice, but employers commit an offence if they lie or withold a reference or make any untrue comments, they can be sued for libel.

 


Problem with this is how would he know, most people never see their own reference.

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My dads Mrs is a company director who specialises in employment law she has to make sure the company abide by the law ...

 

 

I might need to borrow some of these quotes then Gaz lol

 

If it gets to that stage pm me with some more details and I'll see what she says. I reckon your best bet would be to appeal to their better nature though. Any senior management you're friendly with? Especially if you need the reference. Or is there any management you could get to write you a reference on the side before you walk out? I've done that before. Especially as the divide between a director and a foreman is huge. I've had it questioned once, and in my case I just said 'would you rather me get a reference from someone who hands me a job sheet for 10 minutes a morning once a week, or from someone who I've worked with extensively' I find that more relevant to my abilities.


See it's a twat, because if that company were to go under you could find yourself out on your ear the same day, yet they expect 3 months from you, they do it knowing most prospective employers won't want to wait 3 months to have a position filled, albeit under a disguise of tying up any loose ends for them. It's a crock of shit imo, if I've handed my notice in somewhere I would do the bare minimum required of me. Wouldn't bother my arse about things or get stressed over problems like I do currently. Imagine that attitude for three months!

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They can't not pay you anything. It's unlawful to withhold any wages you are owed or holidays accrued. Basically all you would be sacrificing is a reference.

 

Agreed. I've been down this road and they said they wouldn't pay me. A quick letter from my solicitor and I got paid the same week! It's unlawful not to pay you for what you have worked but can then sue you for damages if it's resulted in lost revenue to them.


http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/notice-and-notice-pay


My current employers are so rubbish, they sent me a contract to sign a year ago but I never signed it because they weren't paying me correctly. I still haven't signed it and they haven't chased me which means it leaves the door open to me to give a week statutory notice instead of a month. If they say it's in my contract, I can say what contract? :)

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I was under the impression that, no matter what your contract says,

you only ever have to give a week's notice.

 


thats not the case, you got to work the notice the contract say, unless you can prove that the contract is unrealistic! some contract can even lock you in for the first year or 2, unless you are willing to pay the cost of training you! some bus companys use to do that!

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My current employers are so rubbish, they sent me a contract to sign a year ago but I never signed it because they weren't paying me correctly. I still haven't signed it and they haven't chased me which means it leaves the door open to me to give a week statutory notice instead of a month. If they say it's in my contract, I can say what contract? :)

 

I could well be wrong, but aren't there laws saying that your decision to continue working there without actively contesting the contract can be seen as fair grounds for assumption that you agree to it, which in turn can actually be legally binding? Of course that could be a law from another country that I'm thinking of :lol:


I always think it's a bit crap that my current contract dictates that I have to give a months notice for every year I've worked, but also says they are only obliged to give a weeks notice if they decide to terminate my contract! One of my colleagues has been here 16 years, she's stuffed when it comes time to leave :lol:

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The concept of a 3 month notice period is a dodgy idea as it would be deemed to be an unfair contract clause imposed on you to get the job,

 

It's not uncommon for Headteacher contracts to include a one year notice period.


"Ordinary" teachers are usually subject to a one term notice period - interviews in May for a September start.


In industry, 3 months is common.


OP needs to talk it through with both parties. I would take a very dim view of a potential employee that shafted his old employer by cutting short his notice period tothe extent that I would probably withdraw the offer (knowing that you can't take me to ET)

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Good luck! Sounds like a tricky one! Won't your new employers hold the position open for you? I'm guessing it's common in your industry to have to give 3 months notice?

 

Hi Moo. I am currently teaching in a college and I am leaving the industry completely ... totally had it up the neck with all the politics. We are no longer interested in doing what is right for the learners; we are too focused on ticking OFSTED boxes and covering our arses. The job I have applied for is selling insurance and if successful they want me to start 20th April.


It is a dilema because I know that the new employer wont hold the position till June and my current employer is expecting 3 months notice.


The three months notice is only sensible if I am staying in the industry. As already mentioned most people move schools or colleges and move at the end of the academic year not during.


The new position, although not glamorous, means that I can work opposit shifts to my wife saving £000's per year in childcare!


I need to find a way of keeping them both happy! - shit, that's like trying to please a wife and a girlfriend at the same time! I'm screwed ... :D

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I am currently teaching in a college and I am leaving the industry completely ...


I need to find a way of keeping them both happy! - shit, that's like trying to please a wife and a girlfriend at the same time! I'm screwed ... :D

 

As an (ex) educational employer I'd be concerned mostly about how to cover your absence. How can I continue to deliver the curriculum if I let you go early? Is it a shortage or specialist subject? Can I cover using Randstad, Strictly Ed or similar, and at what cost?


If I were minded to approve the early release, am I confident I can do so without setting a precedent at a time when lots of Post 16 teachers/lecturers are wanting to leave the profession?


What effect is this likely to have on my next OfSTED inspection? What effect would your leaving have on your learners, possibly right at the point that they are taking exams or facing assessment?


What about your professionalism in all this? Your sense of duty to your learners?


On the other hand, if I refused your early release, what chance is there that you might simply go sick with stress?


Spoken yet to your union?


Random thoughts that may or may not help. Feel free to completely disregard if you like :wink:

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I value everyone's contribution Bogof; that's why I have asked.


My new position, should I be successful, has a start date of 20th April. Not accepting it will leave me in a position of not having a job but also still leaving my current post.


I am leaving the college I am teaching in currently because the politics is such that they don't give a monkey's tit about the learners and all they care about is ticking boxes and looking good! Example, I have three learners on a GCSE Maths course that should not be there. Their skill base is much too low. They should be on a functional skill course. The college will not transfer or move them (I have been fighting this since Oct last year) because they are concerned that it will look like they are manipulating the data. The fact that the learners have little to no chance of passing GCSE - two of them don't know the difference between divide and multiply - is irrevelent and the college is forcing them to sit GCSE with no concern for how they will be affected.


Another lecturer, a colleague of mine, had two hairdressing students battling it out using kickboxing in the teaching salon with clients (members of the public) present. The two learners broke several pieces of college equipment and even threatened my colleague telling her to 'butt out'. The college responce was 'naughty girls, shake hands and go back to class. Kicking them off the course means reduction in funds.


I have caught a bunch of lads smoking weed on the college grounds and the principle refuses to take action on the grounds that it will bring the college into disrepute.


Bottom line, the college doesn't give a shit about the learners so me leaving early isn't going to make a difference.


Most of my learners will have already completed their learning (revision, exams and assessments remaining) so they could get by. They all have a contact email for me and I would be more than happy to help them even after I have left.


I have NEVER worked for an employer where their reputation was more important than their customers (students).

Edited by Phooey
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Oosh, sounds like a tough one. But depending on how important your reference is, how your employer feels about it etc, if another job like this could come up in the future........

.....or you could make up a big white lie if you know they won't find out about it so it looks like you have no option but to leave? Something that requires you to leave sooner rather than giving the 3 months notice...but I suppose they might need proof...not sure and you don't want to get caught...


...good luck with it however you go about it :thumb: . You do have to think about no.1 at the end of the day. Let us know how it all goes for you.


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My current employers are so rubbish, they sent me a contract to sign a year ago but I never signed it because they weren't paying me correctly. I still haven't signed it and they haven't chased me which means it leaves the door open to me to give a week statutory notice instead of a month. If they say it's in my contract, I can say what contract? :)

 

I could well be wrong, but aren't there laws saying that your decision to continue working there without actively contesting the contract can be seen as fair grounds for assumption that you agree to it, which in turn can actually be legally binding? Of course that could be a law from another country that I'm thinking of :lol:


I always think it's a bit crap that my current contract dictates that I have to give a months notice for every year I've worked, but also says they are only obliged to give a weeks notice if they decide to terminate my contract! One of my colleagues has been here 16 years, she's stuffed when it comes time to leave :lol:

 

If I've never received or seen a contract, let alone not signed one, they'd struggle to have a case.

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If I've never received or seen a contract, let alone not signed one, they'd struggle to have a case.

 

Nothing says that contracts have to be written down. As soon as you accept a job offer you have entered into a contract with your (future) employer.

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Before I went self employed my old employers decided they would change all our contracts to a zero hours one! (we had signed contracts for a normal 40 hour week originally) most of the guys signed thinking they had no choice around 70 of them, we on the other hand (20 of us) didn't think they could do this and sought help through the union. We also contacted the local papers and fought it all the way. We won the case and kept our original contracts. Afterwards there was no animosity to us as the our manager told us in confidence that he would have done the same in our position. Not a lot of help to you of course but it just shows what can be done with the right help. :wink:

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