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Do I have to pay back anything? What are my rights?


Troy
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Hello all!


I'm in a little jam of a situation. I want your input to get your thoughts and get an idea of where I might stand. I am planning a trip to the C.A.B. to discuss the matter further.


I became self-employed about a year ago now, met a building firm who agreed to send me to college to study Carpentry, all this was verbal nothing written or contracted, a year later (now) I have decided to find another job closer to home and it pays more. I let my employer know, they threw a hissy-fit stating they will want all their money back invested: college, wages, van expenses etc... and will be drawing this all up in a legal letter from their solicitors.


A few side notes: I was having a little trouble funding fuel costs and I put this to my employer who said they will help me a little but it was their own words who said to me... "I think you should find another job..." so I did! Also, it was a company vehicle but I was expected to pay for fuel and nothing else, so all other expenses on the van was paid such as tax and insurance. This started out to be ok in the beginning but it got hard when I was on little money and was expected to travel 1hr 30 mins+ each way some weeks. And finally what made my year, I found out that all other employees on the firm received an "end of Year bonus" but I was deliberately left out and this was not a mistake because one of the other employees who got their bonus gave me half and said that didn't agree with what has been done... "your one of the team as well" I was told...


Discuss below!

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Without anything in contract I'd tell them to take up sex and traveling.


Only possible thing could be college expenses but would need an agreement and tenure for that, they certainly can't demand your wages back not expenses for their vehicle.


Personally I'd be cheeky and invoice them for any fuel left in vehicle if you've paid for that.

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My last employer paid for me to do post grad study. There was a written and explicit agreement that I would owe something back on a sliding scale of I left within two years. All other training was just that, training with no agreement if costs. I would think they you would have to have a contractual agreement on paying back costs but that is an assumption based on my experience not fact!

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A written agreement is as good as a verbal agreement but a verbal agreement is harder to prove and that works both ways!


If they haven't given you anything in writing and signed then tell them to take you to court!


They will lose

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They will lose

 

Can I ask what makes you say this?

 

They haven't said you need to pay all this back in writing to you there is no evidence to say you have to

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https://www.moonbeever.com/comment/repayment-of-training-costs


Is it lawful for an employer to demand the repayment of training costs? The short answer is “yes” provided that there is a properly drafted agreement.

 

I will be making note of that site and will be calling them for some advice. I am more concerned that my situation could be more complicated being self employed.

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If they have had to fork out for college expenses and your not an apprentice - they COULD have a leg to claim for but only this is signed document agreed by both parties,


You should have never paid for your own fuel if your PAYE, too late now but I would contact a repayment specialist, such as RIFT because you’re entitled up to 45p per mile fire private mileage to a place of work that isn’t 2years +

E.g if you work in a office you can’t claim, if your expected to travel from site to site you can - again only if your PAYE


Boss sounds like a nob, weather your the boy on the bottom that makes the tea or right hand man you shouldn’t be treated differently and excluded from bonuses etc, I did my time with bunch of bully, best thing I did was leave.


In summary, I would let them write all the letter they want, They can’t claim back your wages as you earnt them money - it was on their interest to have you.

If they do send a letter just let them know you’ll be fighting it, seeking indepentant financial advise and will be counter charging them for you lost time, earnings and stress dealing with their claims.

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I think this is when employment law can become messy.

You are self employed but on escence employed by the company as a sub contractor I assume.

I assume you weren't indentured. Thus they have no legal right to your employment.


As [mention]Stu[/mention] said earlier and a few others I would ride it out.

If and it won't go to court then the company would have some very difficult questions to answer concerning use of self employed persons but utilising them as employees. I.e. the use of company vehicle but having to pay for fuel....

I take it the others who were given the bonus were all on the same self employed status? That's the get out clause they will use.


Good luck. But in reality you won't need it.

Walk away and be happy :thumb:

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I’ve posted this on another forum (forgive me Stu!) to get an insight of their opinions also. It’s a construction forum hence I felt it was relevant to post there as well.


Yes, you are only getting one side of the story but feel free to ask as your questions to get a more accurate picture.



Thank you for all your comments so far.

Edited by Troy
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We're you given use of the van in lieu of a bonus?

The other employees might have felt aggrieved if you got a van and bonus.

 

The only one who didn’t have a van was the guy who gave me half of his bonus. That’s because he doesn’t drive....

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They will lose

 

Can I ask what makes you say this?

 

I would say "they will lose" too... Why? Because I watch Judge Rinder :thumb: I can hear him saying it now "That maybe so... but did you write any of this agreement down?" 8-)

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Something a bit similar happened to me once. My firm paid for me to become an in house accredited fork lift truck instructor . It was an intensive ten day course that cost about £1000 I think. My licence to train and examine was valid for five years but I quit after one year to go and do something else. There were a lot of angry mutterings and some open hostility but there wasn't really anything they could do about it . Looking back it's a shame I didn't use my license to go freelance .

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I’ve posted this on another forum (forgive me Stu!) to get an insight of their opinions also. It’s a construction forum hence I felt it was relevant to post there as well.


Yes, you are only getting one side of the story but feel free to ask as your questions to get a more accurate picture.



Thank you for all your comments so far.

 

Just be mindful that any comments posted on the construction forum could get back to your company and aggravate the situation,don't let them know what you know and don't slag them off.

A guy at my work posted a defamatory comment on FB about his supervisor, he got fired.They said its the same as posting something on a notice board at work.

Your self employed status, is that a fixed term contract i.e. they deduct your tax or do you invoice them and pay your own tax?

Are all the employees the same status?

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Just be mindful that any comments posted on the construction forum could get back to your company and aggravate the situation,don't let them know what you know and don't slag them off.

A guy at my work posted a defamatory comment on FB about his supervisor, he got fired.They said its the same as posting something on a notice board at work.

Your self employed status, is that a fixed term contract i.e. they deduct your tax or do you invoice them and pay your own tax?

Are all the employees the same status?

 


I am trying to be very careful with my wording because of what your saying. So far I’ve been ok without any form of insults or identification being given.


To my knowledge, all other workers are on the same employment status with the company (sub-contractors) with the option of them deducting your tax for you, which is what I opted for. This is no longer optional if I’m correct anyway, it’s all to do with the CIS from HMRC.

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No bonus? Told to find another job? Forced to pay extortionate fuel prices for a company vehicle??

Sounds like they've been trying to push you out... If theres nothing in writing you're fine and they won't want a tribunal case brought against them for mistreatment..


Park the company van in the most expensive carpark you can find, drain the fuel and lock the keys inside. ;)

(don't do that as tempting as it is)

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An old employer had the same thing, they put me into college and then Uni on the understanding if I failed, they'd fire me and cut their losses, but if I left either during or within a year of the course ending I was liable.


The company changed hands after a year and I noticed this rule dropped from my contract. I left a matter of months after finishing my course, although it wasn't a "ha! Screw you" thing, it was a "everyone is being sacked as the price of oil has plummeted so I'm taking the first ticket out".


I sat down with them at the end and explained why I was leaving, and that I wasn't contractually obliged under the new company to honour the clause I signed when I started under the old contract. They agreed.


So if I can leave a company without paying for something I was originally contracted to pay, you sure as hell can leave a company without paying for something, which was never contracted. You'll be fine :)

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Park the company van in the most expensive carpark you can find, drain the fuel and lock the keys inside. ;)

(don't do that as tempting as it is)

 

Tangent: The courier who collects from my work told us of a Christmas temp worker who (many years ago) was getting shafted, being forced to work long hours, not getting paid delivery bonuses.. the usual. So he took the delivery van to an underground M&S car park where he left the window open a centimetre to throw the keys back in it after locking and walked off. The underground nature of the car park meant the GPS tracker was useless and it took them 2 months to locate it :lol:

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Park the company van in the most expensive carpark you can find, drain the fuel and lock the keys inside. ;)

(don't do that as tempting as it is)

 

Tangent: The courier who collects from my work told us of a Christmas temp worker who (many years ago) was getting shafted, being forced to work long hours, not getting paid delivery bonuses.. the usual. So he took the delivery van to an underground M&S car park where he left the window open a centimetre to throw the keys back in it after locking and walked off. The underground nature of the car park meant the GPS tracker was useless and it took them 2 months to locate it :lol:

 

hope he topped the Diesel tank up with petrol too ;)

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One thing you need think of is if they do take you to court .. the judge with ask firm did you pay for his training /skills . Firm yes here's the bill on how much it costs...


Judge did you benefit from the training you paid for . No he wants to/making him leave .

Worker did you benefit from the course yes . I will get another job due to.it ..


Judge you need to.pay for the course because why should the firm pay for you to.learn a.trade. and then you leave to work else where . You had the training they paid

Now you have to repay them .


If.you paid for the training then went to work.for them you could have had more money + bonuses.


The training is yours NOT your old works . Why should they pay for your training unless it was to Bank for them .


I done my forklifts licence my boss paid .I was told they would keep the licences for insurance purposes (bullshite it was to stop us going.else where with them. As it was reach. Counterbalance. And construction)

We complained and the company was told to give them to us THEY DID but We told we leave while these was valied 3 years .we will have to pay the cost of the courses .

They did say if we wanted to pay fornthe course we could and the licences would be ours but we had to take days off to don the course or do it in works.time and be paid .. .

So i think.you will have to.pay what ever its cost the company to train you.. as it is your trade you learned

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The company van you used i take you used it to go home with and it parked on your street .drive . All vehicles they workers take home must pay TAX on them as they are classed as a company car/van . Also need to watch your insurance as company cars/vans are only to be driven in company hours /work . If the vehicle is parked on the queens highway it must be insured at all times if you don't have permission from the insurance company as a company car (registered as a company car/van ) your insurance is invalid don't take one the lads saying its ok the boss said


Your boss is NOT one who will be paying out or informing the police if they ask does he have insurance... check these points out ..

Because your the one driving and a judge with ask did you check .

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