Ducati 1098 question about torque... brainy people needed

[Evs7]

Well Shakeys done the double again in BSB, and in one sense I'm pleased for him, he's doing well and the bike it working well for him, it's not as if every race is a 1-2-3 for Ducati. Byrne is the only one really scoring well. So maybe Byrne is just good on Ducati's.

Anyways on to my question about the mighty talk of the Ducati, which gives it a great punch out of the corners.

Imagine Cal Crutchlow on the Honda and Shakey on the Ducati both go into a corner with the characteristics of the Ducati with it's extra torque meaning (please someone correct me if I'm wrong here) that Byrne can get more usable power down earlier, meaning that although he may not have top end speed (which the Ducati clearly doesn't) he will be able to get to 70mph quicker with more torque and grip than the slippery sliding Honda?

If thats the case then it's surely just good bike development from Ducati and the reason the bike is dominating more in BSB than in WSB is because of the tight twisty British track configurations, not shakeys or Ducati's fault, although it's making for one boring championship.

[yorbandit]

Pretty sure ya got that right mate, however the reason he winning 1200, they should of made run the road engine 1098, that bike had bo diddly testing in real terms and it winning in BSB and WSB true in shakey and bayliss they 2 of the best ducati riders, but that bike way to good already for summat just out the box so to speak

[DutchMick]

I heard it was the way a 2 cylinder put its power out, also a 4 having to be wider made it harder to turn. One of many theories Im sure

[harrycpr]

just cut the extra 200cc and it will be fine

[Philk]

yor is right about the bike size, when they homologated the 1200 they made sure they had a bike that would go and last so it comes with Ti con rods and a few other trick bits as standard.

They can do that because they only need to sell enough of the model to qualify it for racing in BSB.

Honda and the other big makes are a bit stuck because they are racing a standard Blade or Gixxer. Because of volume of sale they can't really trick up the standard bikes and it would mean introducing a special R variant to qualify for BSB.

But at the end of the day the torque the Duke puts out is perfectly suited to racing on shorter twisty circuits and makes life difficult for the other manufacturers, just as you said evs. But they lose that advantage on a track where a high top end can be used on long straights. Not many of em in this country though.

However I think things are closer these days then back when you could only win if you had a Duke. Shakey shouldn't be underestimated as a rider.

As opposed to that Aussie whiner Stoner who is overestimated as a rider after last years show in Moto GP.

[golach808]

the ducatis are doing well in superbikes as always

but shakey is awesome at the moment same as bayliss in WSB

the rest of the ducati are not doing that well so you have to think it is the rider aswell as the bike

i have been a big fan of bayliss for a long time and also like shakey as a racer so i'm happy they are doing well

i sometimes think is haslam kicking himself everytime shakey has another win as he was good on the bike but just couldn't get the title which at the moment lokks like shakey is going to pick up this year

[Guest akey]

Ok I will try to keep this short and simple so it may be a bit of an oversimplification but will be generally ok.

Torque is the measure of force of an engine.

BHp is Torque x RPM (ish) and is a function of torque and engine speed.

To get lots of torque you need big pistons (force=Pressure x area the pressure acts upon), but big pistons cant rev fast because they have lots of mass, this is why there is a trade of (1000cc twin will have more force per rev than a 4 cylinder bike, but the 4 cylinder will rev higher and generally produce more BHp)

Now this is where you get into all the real techie stuff of how you can make twins rev harder (stronger, lighter internals, desmo valves etc giving both torque and an increase in power).

So the first simple rule of thumb is that for any given cc large pistons produce torque, smaller multiple pistons rev higher creating BHp.

Finally you have to look at how the bike transmits that power through the tyre, single cylinder engines produce large power pulses with a larger time gap between the pulses (why they are good for offroad), twins (v twins in particular) also produce these pulses which give the tyre time to regain grip between pulses, whereas an inline 4 will produce power in a very smooth way but once the tyre breaks grip there is very little time between the power pulses and so continues to lose grip - and it is this theory that lead to the "big bang" moto gp engines which effectivley make an inline 4 deliver big power pulses like a v twin but with all the advantages of an inline 4 (high BHp).

Now with the improvment of traction control some teams are going back to normal "screamer" inline 4 engines.

The search for the perfect power delivery is one of the holy grails of motorcycle design, and has lead to the Vtwin, V4, V5, parrelell twin, opposed twin, tranverse V twin, even inline 6 and V6 engines, all of which have individual traits.

I could go on for hours about engine desing etc as I love it, but I will not bore you all now. Hope that answers at least some of your question mate, if not catch me some day on a ride out or at MFN and I will happily bore you for hours

[techno]

Dont even remotly think that the 4 cylinder bikes and engines are anywhere near standard.

A standard bike produces 160 bhp approx there pumping out 200+.

Pretty much everything one those bikes is bespoke.

[Guest akey]

Ahh but this year the teams have to use standard pistons and con rods, which is why we have already seen a couple of bikes blow up!

The Irony is that all the Jap teams agreed to standard engine parts and when ducati asked to be able to use specialist parts on safety ground all the jap teams said no, now the jap teams have request a review of the rules to allow them to use non standard engine internals

Sorry fellas if you use standard parts you need to tune the engine accordingly not over tune them to the point they start chucking pistons out!!

[techno]

End of the day they shouldn't have been able to build what is in effect a special with the 1098r..should have been 1100 twins!

Especially as with motogp capacity is being reduced!

[Guest akey]

End of the day they shouldn't have been able to build what is in effect a special with the 1098r..should have been 1100 twins!

Especially as with motogp capacity is being reduced!

 

Fully agree old fella, in fact should be 1000cc for everyone, if a twin isnt competative then its the wrong engine for racing!

[Guest]

Great thread Evs mate, Akey lad you both astound me with what you know but put it in a very user friendly was and your posts on this kind of subject are always fantastic to read bud.

Matt

[techno]

Great thread Evs mate, Akey lad you both astound me with what you know but put it in a very user friendly was and your posts on this kind of subject are always fantastic to read bud.

Matt

 

I second that!!

[harrycpr]

third that!

[Evs7]

i sometimes think is haslam kicking himself everytime shakey has another win as he was good on the bike but just couldn't get the title which at the moment lokks like shakey is going to pick up this year

 

I think he didn't have a choice, as far as he knew Airwaves Ducati was no more, got the offer from HM Plant and took it, thinking that a Factory Honda ride was good, then Airwaves come back and rejoin the series after the Ducati is allowed.

I think your right though he probably is sitting there thinking "oh c***"

[Evs7]

Great thread Evs mate, Akey lad you both astound me with what you know but put it in a very user friendly was and your posts on this kind of subject are always fantastic to read bud.

Matt

 

I second that!!

 

I fourth that.

I was hoping Akey was going to post cause I've seen your post before and know that you know alot about the internal workings of motorbike engines.

I could listen to someone talk about engines all night. I love to know how it all works together, I guess I should go on a night course somewhere but I doubt they would go into the stuff I want to know and would instead give you a general overview.

Anyway Akey feel free to talk engines anytime mate.

So just to go over your points and make sure I understand it. The slower pulse of the piston on the Ducati (twin) means more grip under acceleration therefore better drive, meaning their not wasting their acceleration by sliding like a japanese 4 cylinder?

by the way I agree with Techno's point, did Ducati ever try racing the road going 1098? which is closer to the 1000cc limit?

[Philk]

And to add to Akey's top hole points the Duke has bits as standard that allows tuning to a higher level, which are not present in the standard Fours engines, which as someone has stated means they can blow when asked to rev higher.

They have achieved this by creating a variant of the standard 1098.