Exhaust manifold clicking?

[Pete]

First problem with my new Blackbird and I haven't even had it a week!

Ever since I got the bike there's been a distinct clicking sound coming from the front of the bike. At first I thought it was the cam chain tensioner, a common fault on blackbirds. I ordered one yesterday for £46 and installed it today. Still the same sound. Outraged, I sat and pondered on what the noise could be. I inspected all the exhaust manifolds and, to my surprise one of the bolts on the middle left manifold was so loose it was about to drop off! I tightened it up, crossed my fingers and fired her up. Same noise. Then I checked all the other bolts (burnt my hand a lot ) and then when I got to the far right manifold noticed a lot of gum/paste/crap surrounding it. I removed the fairing on the other side and looked at it closer. The noise is almost definitely coming from there. I tried to tighten the bolt (in red circle below) and it just kept spinning...then fell out! The exhaust is after market so my first thought is that whoever fit it originally did a bad job. I'm worried that the gum is there because some numpty stripped the thread where the bolts screw into, hence why the one that dropped out, dropped out!

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae248/peteblakemore/wonky.jpg?t=1254223463

Now you can guess I'm not best pleased. Why the hell is all that gum stuff surrounding the manifold? I'm worried if I chip away at it I'm going to find something I don't like/expensive. My initial thought is that the clicking noise is that it could be the gasket rattling around inside as I can't feel any air escaping when I hold my hand close to it. I think I just need to bite the bullet and take the downpipes off, remove the gum and inspect it further...but what do you lot think? Firstly does anyone know what this stuff is?!

Oh, by the way for anyone wondering what an exhaust manifold should look like here's one (probably from a tractor or something!):

http://image.automotive.com/f/techarticles/engine/9609265+pheader/131_0703_01_z+1992_jeep_wrangler_yj+exhaust_manifold.jpg

[ozz]

that stuff looks like gakit sealer thats been well and truey plastered on, could the could be comming from the thingy bob where the bolt is, mental block forgot whats its called.

I dubt its the gaskit cus it would blow like a bitch if it was loose, you wanna check the exhaust mounts to see if they are all sitting ok that could be the cause of the problem.

[Pete]

Thanks ozz. To be honest the suspect on does look like it's been mounted a bit wonky. However, would it still be blowing/clicking if it's plastered with all this gasket goop? I mean if it's sealed would it really matter if it's wonky?

What a ball ache. Unless someone comes up with any ideas as to what else it could be I think I'm just going to drop the exhaust this weekend and have a proper look at it. Oh and then hope that I can find any spare parts needed from B&Q!

[ozz]

it shouldnt blow or anything if its sealed properly the amount they have put on that if you chip it away you will proberly find that the downpipe has been split or its got a crack in it. To be honest if the exhaust isnt blowing i would not touch that gaskit sealer as it is a bodge job but its a good bodge.

If one of the mounts looks a bit crap check that and line it back up, that should sort out the rattling. If you do line it back up right and it starts to blow a wee bit check the gaskit on the downpipe moving the exhuast can cause them to move just depends if the pipes are resessed for each other.

If you have any problems matey just let me know

[Pete]

Cheers, thanks again ozz. I've considered just leaving it, but there's a definite rattle and that bugs me. I also don't like thinking a bodge job has been done on the exhaust/any part of my bike - call me a perfectionist! Also, if I drop the exhaust, examine it and "fix" it and the rattle is there it could be something more dodgy which I need to know about.

The only downpipe that looks to be dodgy is the one with all the gunk on it! It's bloody rock solid though so god knows how I'm going to get it off. Oh crumbs!

[ozz]

Are you 100% sure the noise s coming from the exhaust?

if you drop the exhaust have a good play getting it set back up again and it is still ralleling let me know coud always pop down and have look im only in cannock so not to far. if its not the exhaust thats knocking then i coud be many things. good old case of fault finding.

best way to get that stuff off is get a butter knife or something like that and scrape it off, but to be honest leave it on cus when u strip that down i dont think your going to like what you see and might cost a big. The stuff will blow off in the end but whilst its solid leave it trust me did it on a mates car to get it passed mot. there middle section had a split on the box i covered it in that just to bodge it past mot and the stuff lasted bloody ages.

[steer_rally]

I had a similar problem with my bike, tapping coming from the manifold where it's attached to the head. Tried tightening the nut holding the downpipe that was making the noise, only to have the stud snap. To cut a long story short, I had to drill the remains of the old nut out, managed to mess that up leaving a hole that was too big and not even round. Needless to say, the stud was too small, so I tried to glue it in (yeah, I know, I knew it wouldn't work but had to try anyway), spent about £40 on JBWeld and all kinds of other products to no avail. Each time I started the engine the glue would soften and the stud would pull iteself out of the head, resulting the tapping noise as the seal was broken at the manifold.

As a last resort (and bearing in mind I have a 20 year old bike that doubles in value every time I fill the petrol tank, and the fact that I try to fix everything with a fag paper and some chewing gum) I drilled the hole bigger, tapped it, and used a bigger exhaust stud from a car engine. Job's a gudden, manifold is on tight with no tapping noises, no leaks. Obviously I don't advise using this method on a bike that's worth any money, but it worked for me. It sound as though you may have the same probem as I did, there's only one stud holding the downpipe on, exhaust fumes are leaking, making the tapping noises, and someone's tried to cover it up with Gun Gum. Try sticking some more gum on there as a temporary measure, but it will come off eventually.

[Pete]

Thanks again guys.

To be honest I want it sorted, I bought the bike with a view to keeping it for a good few years (hence why I got a Blackbird, thinking it would be reliable - it is reliable, just this tapping noise!). I'm 99% sure it's coming from the suspect area ozz, but I was 99% sure it was the cam chain tensioner before that! Thanks for your thoughts too steer_rally, I hope I don't need to bodge it like that!

What I'm hoping is that some twerp has, in the past, bought the new stainless downpipes, tried to fit them themselves and found it tricky and thought "stupid thing won't fit, I'll put sealant 'round the top" and left it at that. HOPEFULLY it's just a case of dropping the zorsts and spending some time cleaning it all up and making it fit properly (like it should have been). Worst case scenario is what you guys are thinking about either a buggered thread on the engine or a crack/split somewhere along the way. Fingers crossed it won't be anything that drastic. I guess the worst that could happen is I'll drop the thing, clean it up, realise it's buggered and just gum it all back up again until I can afford to fix it properly!!

I'll give progress reports as I go. It might take some time, I only bought the bike 3 days ago and it took me quite a while just to get the fairing off this morning! I'm sure in future it'll be a five minute job but for now...well I'll just see how long it takes! I'll get pics up too so you can all have a good laugh

[ozz]

If you drop the exahust from the manifold pop down to halfords and buy some gaskit paist, It comes in a toothpaist tube and its blue cant remember for the life of me what its called. Its about 5 quid when before you stick the manifold on put that on round the hole in the manifold plate then put it on will give a perfect seal if you do it right and will stop any blowing in the future. I swear by the stuff when i do an exhaust.

[Pete]

Nice one ozz, top tip. I'd still need to put the metal gasket in with that though, right...or maybe not?!

EDIT: Do you mean this stuff:

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... yId_165691

[ozz]

yes mate thats the stuff life saver that is super stuff. you will still need to use gaskets if they are there but its just an extra seal to make sure its nice and sealed.

any exhaust i touch i use that stuff.

[Pete]

Thanks ozz, I'll get up Halfrauds first thing tomorrow!

[Guest]

you checked all the brackets, to link pipes and can hangers, and centre stand, last time it was the manifold to link pipe wasn't it,

still need to sort this mess out though..

give everything a wobbly and see what falls off....

[Pete]

Last bike had a bit of a rattle in the collector Frankie, that's right! The new owner was fine with it though.

Everything else seems solid as a rock, the downpipes and in fact the entire system looks almost new (stainless steel downpipes and link pipes, the cans are titanium so no problems there) so certainly no rust or bits dropping off. I'll be off to Halfrauds/local bike shop (whoever's cheapest or has them in stock) first thing tomorrow to get the gaskets and will take a look at this Loctite goop that ozz mentioned. I'm really hoping it's not a split in the engine manifold! Hopefully it's just badly fitted but I won't know until it's all taken apart. I'm not particularly looking forward to getting all that hardened goop off though, it's rock solid!

Incidentally, is there a difference between getting copper or aluminium gaskets? I've noticed there's a choice between the two but can't imagine there's a difference, just that they're both soft metals and are equally as good at the job intended...

[ozz]

If i remember correctly (terrible memory) the copper ones are like paper thin the ali ones are the best ones, they are thicker.

keep us updated on this if yu wouldnt mind.

[Guest]

Incidentally, is there a difference between getting copper or aluminium gaskets? I've noticed there's a choice between the two but can't imagine there's a difference, just that they're both soft metals and are equally as good at the job intended...

 

Cost.. is the only difference i am aware of, aluminium is more common than copper as a resource... both are the same spec, so same thickness and size, I have both on my bike.. some parts come with aly, some with copper,

[Pete]

So here's an update for anyone that's been keenly following this thread.

My new exhaust manifold gaskets arrived this morning at 9am so by 10am I was out in the garage dismantling my bike to have a better look at this dodgy downpipe. It took me about 2 hours to get the fairing off and drain the cooling fluid, so I could displace the radiator and get at the downpipes. That was really frustrating because whoever'd been down there before hadn't been too kind to the bike and quite a few bolts were nicely rounded off for me - sorted now though. Anyway, I finally got around to dropping the zorsts and after chipping away the bizarre cement-type stuff discovered this:

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae248/peteblakemore/DSC_0215.jpg?t=1254604116

Yep, the part where the exhaust stud was split in two! Who knows where the other half went. The other bummer was that the old stud had snapped off inside. Luckily there was about a centimetre left where I could sort of screw a new stud into, however it protruded a centimetre too much at the other end (so the downpipe wouldn't sit level - hence why it was wonky before). I got the stud in a vice and used a hacksaw to cut a bit off and got it level with the other studs in the rest of the manifold. After that I hit the shops looking for some sort of epoxy resin that would hold the stud in place. The first place I went to (B&Q) only sold stuff that went up to 60 degrees C heat resistance. Not good enough. In the end I went to Halfords and found some stuff that had "Great for exhausts, water boilers etc." so I got it!:

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae248/peteblakemore/DSC_0220.jpg?t=1254604119

It's just a stick off grey paste (quite firm) that had a darker streak running up the middle. All I had to do was cut a sliver off, mix the two parts and it was ready to use. I put a blob on the end of my newly cut stud, inserted it and then packed it out a little. Then I surrounded the whole lot in a bit more grey putty. It set really quick and the first time I had to use two different batches - one for the blob on the end of the stud, and another batch for packing it all out. Here's a picture I took while I was waiting for it to fully cure (impressively only an hour!):

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae248/peteblakemore/DSC_0219.jpg?t=1254604125

Actually it looks pretty lumpy and botched there. However that's my second attempt! The first time round I waited the full hour, started tightening the nuts onto the studs and getting the downpipes installed and the sodding putty crumbled away! This next time I waited 2 and a half hours, tightened everything except the faulty stud and then when it came to do that one I gingerly put the nut on. I finger tightened it and then gave it a quarter turn with a wrench:

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae248/peteblakemore/DSC_0226.jpg?t=1254604127

And another shot:

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae248/peteblakemore/DSC_0228.jpg?t=1254604128

The flash on the camera makes it look a lot worse than it is. The colour doesn't actually look that different from the black of the engine, and when the side panel's on I don't think anyone'll notice. If they do then I'll be painting over it with some heat resistant Hammerite paint! Until then I just hope it holds OK. Oh yeah and here's what the old gaskets look like compared to the new shiny ones:

http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae248/peteblakemore/DSC_0223.jpg?t=1254605503

I haven't had chance to fire it up yet to see if the ticking sound has gone. I'm really, REALLY hoping it has because if it hasn't then it could be any number of problems, but almost definitely something to do with the engine (burnt exhaust valve anyone?). I simply ran out of time tonight but all I have left to do tomorrow is top the coolant back up and see what happens. Fingers crossed....

[Pete]

UPDATE - It's still w**kered! In fact it's got worse At least now all I have to do is take it all apart and try again...

[steer_rally]

Did the epoxy hold? Is the stud still in place? If so, can you tighten the nut a bit at a time until the clicking stops?

I tried the same stuff, Evostick Hard & Fast, glued in my exhaust stud, let it cure overnight, fitted my exhaust the next day, all looked good until I switched the engine on, and a combination of the heat and the vibration pulled the stud out in less than a minute, resulting in clicking from the manifold.

Doesn't look like you can use my patented drill it and tap it cure on your bike ,but maybe someone else knows of a glue that will withstand higher temperatures?

[Pete]

Actually that stuff seems to have held OK. I'm not too convinced by it though because to be honest I think I could have tightened that nut a bit more. I was just worried about the crap crumbling away. I'm going to get back down to it tomorrow, put a couple of washers in front of the nut on each stud to pack it all out a bit (nuts seem to stop tightening too soon which is why I think the stud broke in the first place - someone over tightening). I'm expecting the crap to crumble so already have some of this stuff on order:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/J-B-WELD-ORIGINAL ... 568wt_1165

JB Weld. It looks the biznitch. There's a video somewhere on YouTube where a chap put too much on the front of his BMW and the wheel locked up at 80mph. The JB Weld held but the metal sheered off! Sounds strong enough to me. I also forgot to go along with ozz's tip of splodging some gasket sealant up there which I'm sure would have helped (sorry ozz!). I'll get some tomorrow and stick it up there and see if it makes a difference.

I'm almost certain now that it's just the exhaust. It's definitely blowing now anyway. I did the old mechanic's stethoscope trick with a long screwdriver today and pushed the metal end against various parts of he engine and put the handle to my ear. It was great to hear all the different parts of the engine singing away brilliantly without one dodgy sound. I tried each piston behind the downpipe and could hear a reassuring "thud thud thud", the water pump had "swish swish swish", the clutch went "chhhhh" and the manifolds gave the slight tapping noise of the valves "tappa tappa tappa". I tried each downpipe and 1, 2 and 4 all sounded great - all I could hear was the valves. Number 3 on the other hand was definitely different to the rest so I think that's where the leak is (strangely number 4 is the patch up job!). For anyone that hasn't tried the screwdriver stethoscope trick I highly recommend it. Try it on different parts of the engine and it'll make you go "oooo"!

http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/CT-1403Stethoscope-01-.jpg

[Guest]

WalneyFrankie rushes out with a big screwdriver.....

[Guest Mr Miller]

Isn't that how Beethoven got an idea of how his music sounded?

Obviously, he didn't use a screwdriver!

He only had some long-nosed pliers!

P.S. Hope you get her sorted soon Pete!

[Pete]

Smooth as a really smooth thing...perhaps even smoother! That's what my bike now sounds like.

After I went for a long ride yesterday I was slightly concerned that the tapping had turned into blowing. However, today I got down to some serious investigative work and diagnosed that exhaust nuts don't like screwing down onto exhaust studs unless they're really REALLY tight! Some of the nuts had come a bit loose and were rattling around, which in turn meant a couple of the downpipes had shifted mere millimetres but it was enough to make it sound worse than a Harley.

I dropped the zorsts again today. This time I didn't drain the coolant, I just displaced the radiator for access which was good enough, although I did scratch my knuckles up a bit squeezing my spade-sized hands into gaps that were too small! I used the "old" gaskets as I've only done 40 miles on them and they weren't tightened down fully yesterday (it appears). I went with ozz's trick and smeared a shed loads of gasket goop inside the manifold AND on the gaskets and on the troublesome downpipe I put a bit on there too just for good measure! When I tightened everything up as the nuts had seized slightly I packed them out with a couple of washers on each stud which really drove the downpipes home.

Anyway, not wanting to make a long story any longer after getting the rest of the exhaust bolted securely and firmly back together I spun her up. It was so, so nice to hear the trademark smooth sound of a Blackbird. In fact it's the first time I've heard my one sound like it should, it was almost emotional! I was happy anyway! I ran it for no longer than a couple of minutes, beaming and dancing around the garage like a twerp! I didn't want to let it run too long in case the gasket sealant hadn't cured properly yet. I'm going to take it out for a 10 to 20 mile spin tomorrow to make sure everything's ticketty boo. If it starts clicking again at least I know that the problem is definitely exhaust and can go straight to it, rather than wondering how much time I'll have to waste stripping the engine and checking pumps, valves, pistons, etc. and still not get to the bottom of it!

Thanks for everyone's support on this. It's nice to know when something goes wrong there're clever people to offer tips, and some nice people to jeer me onto persevere with it. Thanks folks

[Guest Mr Miller]

Well done that man!

Congratulations!

It is a lovely feeling when your spanner-wielding reaps dividends!

I took mine out tonight for a 20 mile check...just to make sure!

Have fun tomorrow!

[ozz]

yay you sorted it nice one mate,

that stud looked a rite mess once you had taken the gum off it. What you going to do leave it like that or get a new manifold?

what u think about tha gaskit sealer then i love the stuff