Pan European cold idle problem

[marksmith]

Hi folks,

I have a 2008 ST1300 which has an intermittent problem idling before the engine is hot. It idles slowly (600rpm?), and will often stall completely if you let it. It rides fine during this time, and idles well once the temperature is up. Sometimes it also idles fast (~1300rpm) when it's warm, which may or may not be related.

As you can imagine, the last thing you want on a bike weighing 1/3 of a tonne is for it to stall as you pull away on a corner.

The bike is still under warranty, and the dealer has had one attempt at fixing it (replaced waxstat and bled coolant) but that has had no discernible effect. (However they did fail to put the fairing back together properly, and I'm 95% certain they scratched it and tried to polish the scratch out but I didn't notice that until I got home...)

I haven't noticed any obvious connection to outside temperature. Problem can happen when the bike has been sat over night, or just for a couple of hours. (It rarely goes any longer without being used.)

Of course it can just keep going back to the dealer for warranty work, but it's an hour away which means getting time off work (if I want a courtesy bike) or being without a bike for a week (if I want to take it in on weekends) - so I'm keen to help them along a bit if I can.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Mark

[Stu]

well its under warranty so book it back in and tell them you want a courtesy bike and you dont want it back till they have sorted it!!

[marksmith]

Did you read the original post?

[Stu]

errr yes but its the only way to get it sorted

if you dont want to take the time off then tell them to pick it up and deliver a bike to you

the money it could cost you to sort it out could be more then taking time off work

[archiec]

is it an automatic choke on that model ? get them to change it and mention the scratch too, if not satisfied write to Honda customer services, you paid a lot for that bike and deserve good service from the dealer.

[marksmith]

I was after some suggestions which I could digest and pass on to the dealer, really. They don't have any idea what the problem is, and I don't really want to be without the bike (or with a less-good bike) for weeks if I can easily help it.

Let's imagine the bike wasn't in warranty. What might the problem be then?

archiec: no choke at all on this, all fuel injection. The waxstat (which they replaced) controls the fast idle.

I will mention the scratch. I'm very reluctant to accuse them of it - I can't prove they did it. I'd assume I'd done it somehow, except for the fact that it looks very much like it's been polished in an attempt to hide it.

[Stu]

have a read of this not sure if its any help!!

http://gimpywhine.spaces.live.com/blog/ ... 5312.entry

[Guest]

any mech wont appreciate a noob telling him what they think is wrong with their bike, especially if it is info gained 3rd hand of a forum...

give it back to them to sort..

[marksmith]

This is true, WalneyFrankie - and had they fixed it first time I wouldn't be asking. As per Stu's link above, though, and as per several experiences of my own (albeit with cars, not bikes) they don't always know best. I've been there with car garages - they don't have time to sit down and reason things through, they just replace bits. Fortunately I'm not paying for the bits in this instance, but I'm without the bike and/or to-ing and fro-ing to the dealer every time.

They had it two days before (and I had their bike, hence they wanted it done), and it didn't exhibit the problem. They could replace something, run it for a week, and not see the problem - hence think it's fixed - and give it back for me to see the problem the next day/week. Back we go to the dealer, another 2 hours of driving, another week without my bike or with a courtesy bike.

If we can short-cut that process a bit, all the better

[Fozzie]

Fuel injected has an automated choke I thought... I was under the impression it warmed the engine with an automated choke, which is why some bikes rev higher when they turn on. Its the F.I implementing a choke like situation to keep the engine alive. The revs then settle after the engine is warmed sufficiently.

Maybe the idle setting for the FI is wrong and its pitting out.

Or the thermostat is jammed open the engine is cooling way too much when its switched on.

Lots of things it could be. Most likely the FI.

[Stu]

fozzie if you click the link i put on you will notice that its a more complicated system then just the FI having an auto choke!!

not all FI bikes are auto choke mines manual choke as are lot of other bikes i know

its nothing to do with a stuck stat as it does it on cold start up which means the bike is as cold as it could be even with a stuck/working stat it cant cool it any colder then outside temp! If the bike wasnt warming up properly i would agree on the stuck stat

[davefly76]

well, i don't know anything about the bike, or much about bikes in general being a noob but.. if it is a 2008 model i'm guessing it will have a pretty complicated engine management system (much like cars, which i know quite alot more about ) so, chances are it could have a coolant temp sensor, an idle control valve, electric throttle body (no throttle cable), fuel pressure regulator, ecu, coil pack(s) (rather than ht leads) and maybe more. if its an intermittant problem then the dealer are going to find it hard to find the fault if they can't replicate the problem.

take it back to the dealer and let them have it for longer, or take it to another one. bear in mind though that if you go in kicking and screaming and demanding this that and the other you're only going to get their backs up asking for a replacement bike is fine, but ask, don't demand!

[archiec]

freind of mine has the same bike (3 years old ) and his revs quite high on start up and for about a mile after starting I.E.: revving when stopped at juctions ETC. but is OK when warmed up, and he says his does have an automatic choke.

[Fozzie]

its nothing to do with a stuck stat as it does it on cold start up which means the bike is as cold as it could be even with a stuck/working stat it cant cool it any colder then outside temp! If the bike wasnt warming up properly i would agree on the stuck stat

 

Ah, I thought that FI systems accounted for the stat being closed when they start up

It was based on what a bike of mine did, it had weak rpm's at cold start but took ages to warm up and hold a stable rpm.

[Stu]

a stat doesnt have a sensor so the FI system doesnt know if its open or closed plus while a bike is running a stat opens and closes all the time to hold a steady temp so wouldnt work reading the stat

its usually read from ambient outside temp and coolant temp sensor which is located in the stat housing

[marksmith]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. Bike is at the dealer now, and they'll probably have it all week - so we'll see what they come up with.

archiec: Perhaps your friend means it doesn't have a manual choke, and yet it fast-idles somehow. But that doesn't mean it has an auto choke

FI does implement something "like" an automatic choke - in that it enriches the mixture and increases the idle speed, which is also what a[n auto] choke achieves - but it's not an automatic choke. It increases the idle speed and enriches the mixture.

The impression the Honda dealer gave me was that the fast idle was controlled only by the waxstat, and that this was not the same thing as the coolant thermostat. I was under the impression it had a different function to the thermostat: to make the bike fast idle, rather than to regulate the temperature of the water. However perhaps I misunderstood or he was wrong.

Anybody know how the fast idle is implemented on the ST1300? Stepper motor on the throttle? Something else?

Thanks,

Mark

[Stu]

quoted off another forum and it refers to your bike

 

The fast idle is controled by a wax pill. It is similar to the wax pill that is built into a thermostat. It is also heated by the engine coolant to control when the idle comes down. Wax is like water, when it cools and solidifies it expands, only at a much higher percentage. So as the coolant heats the wax the chaimber in the pill contracts as it warms. This is attached to a rod that controls the starter valves. There seams to be some variation in the range and set point of these pills. The rate of expantion and contraction seems to be different from bike to bike. As well as how quickly they heat up. The good news is that it is adjustable. The owners manual says not to touch it, but I loosened the nuts that lock the adjustment and turned down the rpm at which my cold idle was set. 1500 rpm instead of 2000. It also redused the time it stayed at high idle as the wax didn't have to contract as much to reduse the idle to normal as it did at 2000 rpm. You have to follow the instructions for the starter valve sync for disassembly. You might as well do this first while you're there. Then study the mechanism and you'll see the adjuster. I'm sorry I don't have pictures or better documentation. If you don't have a service manual and or you want more info on the starter valve sync, just do a search on it in this forum.

[marksmith]

Thanks Stu. Interesting. The problem on mine is only intermittent, and they replaced the waxstat itself, so any remaining problem would have to be with the linkage...

[marksmith]

Right, update.

Just heard from Honda dealer, and they think the problem might be the cold start valves being out of balance. (They were out of balance, but they don't "know" that's the problem.) Not covered under warranty, and they've already done it, £130.

Balancing the valves isn't a service adjustment, so it's not something which has been missed. But being an adjustment, Honda (fairly arbitrarily in my opinion) don't cover it under warranty.

Not sure what to do about that. Not very happy having to pay for repairs (especially at main dealer rates!) on a bike which has gone wrong under warranty.

Any thoughts?

Ta,

Mark

[marksmith]

OK, panic over. Honda have kindly agreed to cover the labour. All is well in the world again. (Provided the problem really is fixed.)

[Guest]

I also have an A8 pan european registered with an 09 plate it had about 5000 miles on the clock pre reg from the dealer it lasted 4 months and now when I start it in the morning it sometimes

idles at 500rpm or lower and stalls needs revs to keep it going.

Its been back to the dealer and had the throttle bodies synced which seems to have stopped it stalling but it still idles low after its warmed up sometimes it just shakes and you know it is going to drop that low it will stall.

Dealer is not sure what is wrong and today my girlfriend said that she knows someone at work that also has a pan european just bought it and now a month later his is acting like mine also.

Not very impressed with the ST1300 it has gremlins I had an A6 06 plate before this one and the throttle bodies failed causing it to stall and over fuel.

good luck mate

[Guest]

Mark,

Can i ask who the dealer is? Im local to you & have a Honda so ggod to know!!

Cheers

[marksmith]

I also have an A8 pan european registered with an 09 plate it had about 5000 miles on the clock pre reg from the dealer it lasted 4 months and now when I start it in the morning it sometimes idles at 500rpm or lower and stalls needs revs to keep it going.

Syncing the cold start valves (not the same thing as syncing the throttle bodies, I believe) seems to have done the trick on mine - two weeks now and no trouble.

According to the dealer, the chap at Honda UK was arguing withe Honda Japan to get it added to the service schedule. I'd read from that that it's quite a common problem. The trouble is, getting to the valves is another 30-45 mins work from the most dismantled poingt during a normal service, meaning it's another £30ish on top of an already expensive service.

VFR: The dealer in question is Honda Bournemouth. They said the fairing misalignment as not done by them, but fixed it anyway. They were also very helpful throughout. Just a shame they didn't nail the problem first time.

Cheers,

Mark

[archiec]

Glad you got it sorted...........