PhatDad

Save all the silica gel packs you get in packaging etc. Find a airtight container, tubs of quality street etc, and after each non-raining ride stick them all in the gloves and then then put them in the air tight container. Worked with my gloves.

Well done Bex, glad to hear you've joined the Desmond crew like me.

If it's teaching in the lifelong learning sector then let me know I have shit loads of books I no longer need due to just passing my teacher qualification, so let me know. I was going to bang them on ebay this morning but didn't have my phone on me at the time so didn't bother.

Hi, I've just added a load of you to xbox so if you see a request from PhatWingChun then it's me.

That's all you ever do is take the piss

Oh well if that's what you think who am I to argue.

Keep your drivel on one thread instead of spreading it to others

I was taking the piss but it would seem yet again if one persons drivel isn't supported by the majority on here then they aren't free to post elsewhere even if it's in humour. I wonder if the same would have been said to one of the other 'supported' forum drones if they'd said the same I doubt it. As long as you tow the party line it would seem you can post all sorts of bullshit.

I'm glad to see this report. Apology

It made me angry to see the reporter try and make out he was condoning the violence after he'd stated he had been expecting it. And then made me more angry when he was accused for rioting. I suspect the reporter didn't even know who he was and how much he has done of the years for the country.

I do understand many of the opinions that have been posted here, from the wider socio-economic issues to the group mentality and psycological effects. More importantly this statement from the PM I believe shows that at least someone in government also has a grasp, even at a basic level of what the root cause is.

For me, the root cause of this mindless selfishness is the same thing that I have spoken about for years. It is a complete lack of responsibility in parts of our society. People allowed to feel that the world owes them something, that their rights outweigh their responsibilities and that their actions do not have consequences

I am not known for quoting the PM or evenly openly supporting any government but this statement for me sums it up nicely. Of course the real exam question is how do you change the social structure that perpetuated this effect !!!!!!!!!!

Right back to my normal cynical and less deep self.

Noooooooooo I like this Akey. I even found myself nodding to his comment you quoted and I'm no supporter either.

Well at last a modicum of common sense in dealing with these scum, giving some of the little sh*ts what they deserve (okay ignore the media sensationalism but at least there are pics and a vid)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -gang.html

Just waiting for the claims of police brutality now ...

And to back up what i've just posted before this, when I saw this video earlier in the day I laughed and said 'Go on kick him in' to the coppers. They've committed the crime so do them over.

Well sounds like everyones jumped on the blame bandwagon, what happened to taking resposibility for your own actions

Am sorry you can blame what you like going back to the dawn of time but ultimatly you are responsible for your own actions most people deal with the shit thats thrown there way and adapt, how can destroying milions of pounds worth of property possibly help the social and economic crisis?

People may say they dont condone whats going on but in a way by trying to justify what isnt a protest but just blatant lawlessness is in a way condoning whats going imo, am sorry but you cant have it both ways, if there was a proper protest and agenda then far play to them and well done for standing up for yourselves but it isnt.

Anyway excellent post Dan!

You post shows that you don't understand what we've been trying to say. It sounds as though you believe that Aaron and I are saying 'Go easy on them, it's not their fault. Blame the government don't blame them' which is not what we're saying. What we're saying is that you treat a people a particular way don't be surprised when the shit hits the fan. Send them down for years for all I care all I ask is that something is done that prevents people turning out the way they have from dealing with parenting, to changing the benefits system, to harsher punishment for crimes etc. We're not justifying their actions we're questioning the reason why they are mentally able to commit such actions/crimes. If it was just one person we could blame it on parenting but the more people it involves the more we have to question the sociological reasoning rather than the psychological reasoning behind it.

But this points out the issue. The population on a whole are sheep. A few people, such as the person who wrote the above, are wolves. There will always be some strong willed person who decides not to follow others and good on them. I'm also guessing that they probably faced a whole heap of problems NOT fitting in with those around him/her. The sheep know no better and will follow the criminals and gangster, the lazy and the gutless as it's easier than being 'different'.

 

Being a sheep is down to them, nobody else. If they are too weak willed to change they've also got nobody to blame for this but themselves.

But governments know people are sheep so shouldn't place people in a position where the easiest option for them is to not learn/not work/not steal/etc etc

An interesting response to said blog....

SJS said... First of all, I'm going to point out a blatant inaccuracy in your "report".

"Police stations are being set alight all over the country."

No, they're not! One unmanned police outpost has been set ablaze. Hardly the novel-exciting story you'd have your readers believe.

Now to what I consider a more important issue...

Where did you grow up? Was your family poor? Was everyone around you a feckless thug, smoking, drinking, having sex under-age because they consider it "cool"?

Well, I grew up in one of the poorest neighbourhoods in England. My family was not only poor, it was only one step removed from a cardboard box beneath a bridge. I went to the same schools as these looting, mugging thugs. I was presented with the same lack of opportunity as them, I was just as disenfranchised with this floundering country. I have been searched (many times) without justification by police, I've been charged with an offence which never even took place.

Am I out there smashing windows, mugging old ladies, torching builds and cars? No... I'm not!

You can blame society as much as you like, but you're demonstrating a noxious delusion an unfortunate number of ill-informed and ill-experienced people. More depressingly, it is predominately people such as yourself who dictate policy as short-sighted as your rhetoric.

What makes me different to these morons? Simple: I CHOSE not to be a moron. I elected to LEARN when I went to school (and ever-after), I wanted to make something of my life. Inversely, these morons have no desire to WORK. They've no drive to learn, or to achieve anything for themselves. They're content to live on "the dole", sponging from taxpayers such as myself who work bloody hard to make a distressingly poor wage.

You can try to justify their behaviour as much as you like, but not only does it fail to excuse it, you're doing nothing more than deluding yourself.

As for "racism", well... I've been watching the news for god-knows how many hours... and every single image of rioters and looters I'm seeing has a disproportionately large number of black people (particularly young black women with bags full of ill-gotten loot). I'm not at all racist... but let me tell you, I DO believe what I see with my own eyes. If 60+% of rioters happen to be black, then that 60+% are proliferating a stereotype, and have only themselves to blame for any racist sentiment aimed in their direction.

These people are wilfully unintelligent! They CHOSE not to pay attention in school. Not because they're poor, not because they're "downtrodden", but because they are plain stupid.... by CHOICE. They are simply too lazy to do their own thinking, and so are easily cajoled into "gangs", empowering them to be a complete moron... thus, you end up with mobs rioting and looting.

You cannot change the way these people behave, because they LIKE the way they are. They lack any moral compass, any social responsibility, any willingness to be productive. In the place of those purposefully belayed virtues, they have weaknesses: desire to steal, to "make fast money" at the expense of those of us who work hard, to cause others pain, to seek "popularity" within their gang, to watch the world burn.

There's NO justification for their actions, no excuse. They made their bed, and I for one would be sincerely happy to see copper-jacketed projectiles put them to rest in it. 9 August 2011 03:49

 

Absolutely fantastic. Spot on.

But this points out the issue. The population on a whole are sheep. A few people, such as the person who wrote the above, are wolves. There will always be some strong willed person who decides not to follow others and good on them. I'm also guessing that they probably faced a whole heap of problems NOT fitting in with those around him/her. The sheep know no better and will follow the criminals and gangster, the lazy and the gutless as it's easier than being 'different'.

Again, Bex, no one is saying that parenting isn't an issue, but we're not just talking the current kids we're talking decades and generations of failure certain groups in society have faced. Why should parents tell kids to pick their litter up, noone else does around here so why should I, the sheep, do different. Their kids then do the same thing and it propagates down the generational ladder till we get to the stage we're at now.

A system that allows the rich to get richer while the poor pay for the rich's mistakes, racism, class systems, benefit systems that demoralise etc are as much at fault as the parents or the teachers. We can't look at this individually as it's a social issue. The parents didn't teach respect, the teachers failed and allowed someone to leave school unable to read, the media are constantly showing that looks, wealth, etc are valued more than intelligence, respect and humility. All of these individual issues are grouped into social and economic problems that need sorting. We need to sort these systems before we can educate the individual.

I can appreciate living in some of these estates can be unpleasent, but at the end of the day the people living there make it what it is. As for being stopped by the police, if they don't like it prehaps they could move to a lawless country like Somalia, where they would expericence real 'day to day crap'. I'm sorry but these youth's, even the poor, live an extreamly priviliged lifestyle compared to a lot of the rest of the globe. They are lucky beyond thier wildest dreams to have access to a free education, and yet so many of them piss it down the drain.

Because the social environment they live in has a negative outlook of education. Catch22 situation, can learn but face ridicule/bullying etc. Survival of the fittest.

Odd idea.

OMG here you are again on some sort of political agenda. Can't you see how much money this system will save in the long run? Oh and have you heard Jordan has split with her boyfriend who apparently slept with her ex boyfriend before have a quick civil ceremony with her ex, ex, ex's fiance.

Exactly, I, like you was poor as a youth but I didn't face the day to day crap these youth do. I have no answer as to what can be done and I think it might be too late to fix the issues as it's been going on for centuries now.

 

Can you explain what you mean by day to day crap?

Day to day crap of living in some of these estates. A few people have said they've been stopped by the police before and if you stay calm etc it's ok. But what about being stopped on a daily basis, sometimes even more than once a night when all you're doing is making your way home from a mates or heading into town to watch a film. The mate I mentioned earlier wasn't just stopped the once with the 'You fit the description of someone' he was stopped everytime with that excuse given to him. Like I said, I walked down the same road every friday night, sometimes carrying electrical goods like a video player and never got stopped. I got a look from the coppers passing but never stopped to ask what i was doing at that time and why i had a video recorder or games console etc. But my mate with empty hands got stopped repeatedly walking the same route. There was a young black guy on the news a few years back because he'd made an official complaint about the police in my area pulling him up in his car. 18 times in a few short months he was pulled over. Everything was legal, everything was insured the only difference was he was black. It's stuff like this I can imagine can cause people to object to being stop and searched.

And of course

Walk on the estate stairwells with your baby in a buggy manoeuvring past the condoms, the needles, into the lift where the best outcome is that you will survive the urine stench and the worst is that you will be raped

How has society got into such a situation that this goes on? That this sort of experience is day to day events.

No one has said the looting is wrong, we just want people to look at the bigger picture and not just slam the 'scum' immediately and think it'll go away once they're locked up or shot with plastic bullets.

Interesting article http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting

Makes me think ... while blatant criminality is unforgivable, the quote here that stuck out, ""Walk on the estate stairwells with your baby in a buggy manoeuvring past the condoms, the needles, into the lift where the best outcome is that you will survive the urine stench and the worst is that you will be raped . . . It's not one occasional attack on dignity, it's a repeated humiliation, being continuously dispossessed in a society rich with possession."

Exactly, I, like you was poor as a youth but I didn't face the day to day crap these youth do. I have no answer as to what can be done and I think it might be too late to fix the issues as it's been going on for centuries now.

They aren't listening Bex - they're on a political tip and there's no prisoners on the way.

This I find is aimed directly at myself and Aaron so will retaliate in a likeminded personal way and say that your quote here is based on an ignorance tip and there's no enlightenment on the way.

Here's a link from me that I find interesting and explains what I and Aaron have tried to explain without much luck it would seem. Click here if you're not scared to be educated

You mean "our" own making, you blaming everyone but you for this when you have done as much and have as much power to do anything as the next man/woman. Also blaming everyone else but yourself would appear childish though the responce you are getting is also slightly unfair. So all I will say is on the basis of the way information is being passed here both sides are wrong given the personal tangs in responces.

We dont want this situation now, millions dont. The government forms the system and look at public opinion of the government. We detest it on the whole and want change to reform etc. So keep this civil please as this is not of our own doing, we chose a government to sort out the debt crisis and its gotten worse. They said it would get worse before it would get better.

Though im beginning to not care, everyone born in this country has the same rights to an education. What differs is the choices THEY make. And though the system could do with bettering life for the youth to make their direction in life more correct it wont happen at the moment so quit complaining and plan for a future where it is possible.

Moaning about today will ruin tomorrow.

I hope the 'keep it civil' is aimed at all parties on this thread and not just Aaron as it seems personal comments can always be made towards others if the comments are aimed at those with the opposing opinion like the one on top of this post.

How come this situation has been expected by a lot of people who work on the streets. In fact I'm quite angry to be living in the current financial climate as we've struggled for years without taking on debt. We've not got the best of anything, our house is falling apart as we can't afford to fix it without going into debt yet we're still being punished for those of us in the society who have gone out and stupidly ended up getting in loads and loads of debt as it's the easy option.

The sending police in on force and calling for more and more like Aaron says is a quick fix that will stem the current looting and rioting however long term it solves nothing. Even cameron on the news today admits the benefit systems are partly to blame and the way they've created groups irresponsible etc.

we're talking about the reasons why these people have the mentality to commit these crimes. The reasons behind which are social economic reasons, caused by the system/government.

 

Having studied Sociology & a background in Social Work I don't dispute that socio-economic circumstances can affect how someone might feel towards 'the system'.

However I would repeat that living in impoverished circumstances doesn't prevent a person from knowing the difference between acceptable & unacceptable behaviour.

No it doesn't prevent them from knowing that but it if they don't care about themselves, their neighbourhood etc then what does it matter? We know that speeding is unacceptable and unlawful behaviour but we choose to speed still.

These guys have no hopes, no chances etc and only if the system hasn't yet failed them at school and they've managed to get the skills to study/work when younger they might stand a chance of getting somewhere through hard work. However this obtaining skills at school and working really hard itself is something frowned on in those societies. Something easy comes up and they'll take it. I was unemployed for quite a while when I was younger and the whole dole system dragged me down and it wasn't until I was supported by family that I managed to get out of it and realise the extent of how deeply I had sunk into self loathing and lethargy.

I have to agree with Bex & Riffmaster, the behaviour of these individuals cannot be explained away by blaming the economic situation we are experiencing. It is out and out thuggery and vandalism!

Ok so maybe some of these people have no jobs and no money. Perhaps their parents grew up in similar circumstances as well. However there are thousands of other young people in this country who might well have had an impoverished upbringing and who are unemployed but they don't resort to mindless violence just for the sheer hell of it!

Yes I do blame parenting to a large extent, and the culture of many young people today who seem to think that they are owed something without earning it.

I'm sorry, but you don't need money or a job to know the difference between right and wrong - these individuals are old enough to know this!!!!

But myself and Aaron aren't talking about the specific looting and burning etc we're talking about the reasons why these people have the mentality to commit these crimes. The reasons behind which are social economic reasons, caused by the system/government.

I also believe this started NOT because of the guy getting shot but by someone being stopped and searched in the street... again.

Someone said 'I don't see why they care about getting stopped'. I used to walk a route home from my sister's house, sometimes carrying electrical equipment late at night after baby sitting for my neice. I never got stopped despite coppers passing me by. Her black boyfriend however who walked the same route to my house from hers on other nights got stopped 5 or 6 times out of 10. 'There's been a crime in the area and you fit the description, empty your pockets...' I know I wouldn't like it if that happened to me.

Cant believe that some people think that the best way to go about orchestrating change is to have a mass tantrum and stamp their feet like petulant toddlers, which in some way could be at least a little understandable if thats what they wanted to do, however it isnt all they want to do is rob stuff and destroy things they couldnt give a rats ass about change and been ha slaves to the sysyem ffs

They need a smacked arse just like the the babies they are.

It can be wrapped up in as much anti-government propaganda as you like but they arnt acting in my name and I dont want any change that this kind of disgusting behaviour brings.

PD and aaron if your so behind it why dony you get out there in your balaclava and help your brothers in arms instead of sitting in your nice comfy armchairs!

 

I've never condoned those actions in this whole thread. I think that's why I get frustrated. Its always like your either with us, or against us, G dubbya style.

The point i'm trying to make is that it is futile to focus our anger on these people without considering the broader picture. All it achieves is to make us feel a bit better in the short term.

10 years ago my sentiments would echo almost exactly most of those here. I was up for killing 'ragheads', removing anti-war protestors. Blamed all of society's ills on spongers and illegal immigrants. Conservative vs Labour, Red vs Blue, life was simple.

But the truth i've realised is that this model of the world which we're fed just isn't accurate, and is a shallow twisted representation of the real world.

The question to which i'm now responding is evidence in itself of how ingrained in peoples minds the afforementioned representation of the world is. No offence meant, but the strength of your feelings on the subject have obviously prevented you from reading and understanding what i've previosuly written. Otherwise it would have been clear that I disapprove of what's happening.

The issue I have is that this situation has been caused by people that are perfectly happy to see us (the man on the street) fight amongst each other. A fight between people that are too dumb to know why they're angry, and people that are too ignorant to know better.

I hope that makes some sense. I suspect that PDs positiion is similiar in that he would not condone the looting/burning at all either.

I think we're quite like-minded Aaron however if I'm honest, if I get a pair of branded trainers out of it they can loot all they want. (That was a joke people)

as i have said all along, they have no idea why they are doing this, its not because of a plight, people can spout on about it being the 'symptom of a system' cos thats billshit, they are doing it cos they are scum, they think that the world owes them something and they do not realise that they need to get up off their back sides, take responsibility for their own lives and make something of themselves.

I ask you, why are they scum? Why do we have so many scum in our 'society' now? It's because of the governmental systems over the centuries. Don't just think Aaron and I are discussing the current government or the last labour government but the whole democratic system we've lived under for centuries. If a people or a group have nothing for so long then strange things happen. They start looking up to people who make cash like drug dealers etc and see that as their only way of escaping their situation. They can't escape through regular means for one reason or other so they look for other ways.

In a way the world does owe them something. It owes them the opportunity to make something of themselves and a lot can't. If it wasn't for my situation in the last few years there was no way I could have gone to University and bettered myself that way and open up doors for my future. A lot of people don't have these options. Some of those you watch looting can't read or write as schooling, yet another system, has failed them etc. A lot of people are that repressed that they have no self worth and don't feel as though they can make something of themselves. Hell I've seen how crippling a low self esteem is when it's women being unhappy about their looks/weight imagine what it's like for someone who feels useless due to them just being a young man/woman living in a certain area. No prospects and no hope!

ffs i am up to my neck in debt and i am not getting any help for it, i am a student but i have still managed to keep up some form of payment to the debt collectors, i have also managed to go out there and get a job for which i work my ass off and put up with insults and complete and utter disrespect from joe bloggs public who think that bar staff are idiots, i pay for everything i have and i am not happy with the way the country is being run, but you do not see me running around looting, burning and smashing other peoples property, BECAUSE I HAVE RESPECT FOR OTHERS!!! that is what is causing all this, and no, i was not brought u in a privileged childhood, i didnt have up to date games and toys, i didnt get holidays abroad, amd i have worked since i was 14 as that was the only way i could get the clothes i needed to stop myself getting bullied.

STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR BAD PARENTING AND THE LACK OF SOCIAL MANNERS!!!

I was/am in the same boat as you and I have respect for others too but more importantly I have respect for myself and a lot of these people don't have it for themselves. They also don't understand respect and all this is down to the system that has raised them, along with their parents etc. I deal with kids like this in a school and they have a shocking homelife and you could just stop there and say 'Hey it's their parents fault' but if you look deeper you'll see it's the system that they have been raised with, or the system their parents have been raised in etc allowing them to be the way they are.

You're suffering from Stockholm syndrome like most people.

 

Stockholm Syndrome is when the captive relates to the captor.

 

Precisely. Your comments make it clear that you get your world view from the tabloids and that you've fallen so in love with your masters that you'll fight to defend them.

The people looting and setting fire to homes are rotten scumbags, but this situation has been manufactured by people that don't shop at JD Sports; the people that systematicaly transfer wealth to the ultra rich minority, impoverishing the lower classes and disolving the middle classes. The same people that then spread their hate in the comic books that people call newspapers and reply on people like you fight amongst each other, blaming benefit claimants, etc.

This is a symptom of a broken system and focussing your frustrations entirely on the symptom, rather than the cause, only highlights the depth to which your indentured servitude is voluntary.

People are largely a product of their environment, and while i'd have no problem with shooting someone trying to loot my shop, calling for more police powers/troops on the street etc only make one's self more a slave.

I agree whole heartedly with Aaron... once again. Dude, you make too much sense sometimes.

That has made me feel sick, .22 to the twats head would be far too good and quick. Imagine that poor kids parents seeing that, what ever would they feel.

 

The worst bit for me, was how they opened the bag and went through the contents so nonchalantly, like they weren't even doing anything wrong.

The worst bit for me was the way he walked away with his hard man ghetto walk etc. Yeah like that's a big tough thing you're going to get respect for.

Now this really fucks me off big time. Looting is one thing, not good but not as disgraceful as this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gex_ya4-Oo

Agree with nearly everyone so far.. Thank you all for not turning this thread into a huge argument as some do..

 

Not trying to defend the violence, but it's EXACTLY what this country needs.

 

I have to say that whats going on is appauling but it really does make an example of the fact the police need to be given more powers and more numbers... All the recent policeing cuts are now looking very stupid!

There you go iWannaGoFast's point entirely.

After the student riots, which was quelled in one night, there was an upcry of "Police Brutality!!" and this time they are just sitting back as they are no longer allowed (Nor have the numbers) to deal with this in the same way...

I think the race card may be stopping them more than brutality.

That so many people have no respect or care for there actions and that the police have no way in which to bring it to a halt..

Whole family is getting ready to protect our house if needs be for the following nights..

This is the problem, if you have nothing to lose in the first place then what's the risk?

I don't condone this riot and looting however if they openly started the troubles with a true cause then I'd be fine. Here the words of someone who was there and speaking sense. http://www.twitvid.com/4JTZH

Not trying to defend the violence, but it's EXACTLY what this country needs.

 

Grow up. You've made it obvoiusly clear that you have got no real understanding of what is going on.

I actually agree somewhat with iWannaGoFast. This violence is actually raising the government AND the populations awareness of the problems in society. These problems are often ignored but there are a couple of generations of disillusioned people with no voice. In an interview with someone I read earlier they said that 2000 people marched to Scotland Yard for their cause and no one knew about it. A night of rioting and these young people have an audience and are able to speak out. I suspect however the media are going for the lowest common denominator who when asked what they are rioting for they say 'I is getting me taxes back innit'. It wasn't that long ago that I was unemployed and all the time the governments system dragged me lower and lower and every step I made to get back on my feet they closed the door to me. I could have been one of those people out there in the streets raiding footlocker because I was that poor I didn't have a pair of trainers.

It also points out maybe cutting the funding to the police isn't really that good an idea. It also points out that maybe being too politically correct is causing issues and that facing the rioters on the first night firmly and effectively could have stopped the copycat rioting elsewhere.

Hahaha Darcus Howe just put the news reader in her place. The f**king stupid bitch a) asking if he condoned the acts because he'd said he was 'aware that something would one day occur' and b) for trying to dirty his name by saying he was 'no stranger to rioting'.