Too many accidents on the Mod 1

[Mightycaz]

I failed my first MOD 1 because it was raining and I didn't stop in time after the swerve, The thing that really annoys me is I did the E stop straigt after and stoppped with no problems, the annoying thing about it is I obviously showed I could do the E stop as I did it fine without the swerve.

I might get flamed to death here so I will hide behind something fire proof, I also came off on my second go. As I was coming up to the swerve I looked down at the speedo and when I looked up I didn't have time to lean and swerve so I turned the bars (< mong!) and jacknifed myself over the handle bars. If the area was bigger and gave us more chance to get upto speed then there would be time to look and check your speed, as it is now you are under pressure to get upto a minimum speed in a short space of time then swerve and stop. The swerve itself is easy, its getting the speed up which I feel is the killer.

Two weeks later and £260 lighter I went back and re-did it, aced it this time with a speed of 58KPH. All of the tests I did I only incurred 1-2 minors (and the majors obv).

I'm not sure if the test itself needs to be changed but a bigger run up to take some of the pressure off would certainly help alot of people. And to all of the people who said if you have difficulty doing the swerve then you should'nt be on a bike, both of my instuctors said it took them a fair few goes to be able to do it at the required speed and they have both been riding and instructing for the best part of 15 years.

[GarethNW]

INCOMING FLAME OF DEATH!!!!!

No I agree compleatly with you, the test needs more room before the swerve. I found plenty of room after it though, just the bit before is way to short.

[Aaron]

both of my instuctors said it took them a fair few goes to be able to do it at the required speed and they have both been riding and instructing for the best part of 15 years.

 

I seriously hope that's bullsh*t.

 

The thing that really annoys me is I did the E stop straigt after and stoppped with no problems, the annoying thing about it is I obviously showed I could do the E stop as I did it fine without the swerve.

 

My point exactly.

 

I looked down at the speedo and when I looked up I didn't have time to lean and swerve so I turned the bars (< mong!)

 

I think that illustrates perfectly why this is a worth while test. I could be misinterpreting what you wrote, but it makes it sound like you weren't taught to counter/active/push steer.

 

but a bigger run up

 

I'd possibly agree with that one

[Guest]

You all have valid points. The swerve on its own is not a dangerous thing, it is combining it with getting up to a set speed (over our current 30mph speed limit), swerving and then braking. It is a lottery as to when a fatality will happen. I have stood at the DSA test centre and seen countless people get this totally wrong on 500s and 125's. (The bike size is not an issue). Speed, swerve and stop is a circus trick which has no part to play in rider safety. We should have a test, but not to the detrement of the industry and rider safety. 400 incidents since Mod1's introduction. An experienced advanced rider tried the 'swerve' test on a wet day and managed to bin the bike. Lower the speed and make the run off area longer after the swerve. This will stop incidents like the near fatal crash that happened a couple of months ago when a student was literally brought back to life by an examiner who had the knowledge to save her. The DSA have in one swoop done what successive governments have tried to do for years. Kill of motorbikes. I have spent the past 8 months researching the way the DSA operate and how it perceives the motorbike. I have also had very lengthy conversations with the select committee and the DSA to stress that the MOD1 does little for road safety and parts of it are dangerous. I have sent my findings into the select committee concerning the new proposals which are to be made law in two years time and also sent them a 300 page document outlining where I feel the new regulations have let us all down and how they need to be changed. If it carries on this way, within 5 years the motorcycling industry will be dead and bikes will vanish from our roads. The so called select committee was made up of people who had barely swing a leg over a motorbike, let alone hold a licence for one and it shows as we would never have the current test if actual riders had been involved. Even the way motorbike instructors are managed by the DSA is appalling. Did you know there is no set training programme for them? All instructors have to learn by proxy, so if you are taught by a poor riding school there is no one to correct your training. On the whole, instructors and riding schools do the best job they can with the limited resources they have and for the most part they are passionate about their work. But the riding schools are also under threat, not only from the perceived dangerous MOd 1 which has put a lot of people off, but from the current training structure as enforced by the DSA. The CBT is too basic a course and should be extended and have a minimum number of hours imposed. The CBT is more important than any other riding course and should prepare a new rider with the skills and confidence needed to be safe on the road. Everything else should build on the CBT and less emphasis should be put on the DAS . Teach a real course from the start and everything else will fall into place. Accidents will drop and the route to passing your test will be easier and shorter. The reason DAS is so expensive is because the CBT is such a poor course. If the course covered more and to a greater degree, the rest of the courses will be shorter and easier for a student to master. If you were learning to drive a car, and the instructor said that because you only wanted to drive a small city car the training would only be very basic, you would quite rightly be very annoyed when you see drivers of large family saloons receiving superior training. Should a 125 learner receive only enough knowledge to 'get by'. But a 500c learner be given training that will save his/her life?.Also if training schools could charge a reasonable fee to train new riders to a good standard, (some instructors earn minimum wage or below!) the cost of lessons and the amount required for your full licence would fall which would be good for the consumer. It would also allow training bodies to survive as new riders would have the confidence in them and also know they can safely ride on the road. It’s simple, for motorcycling to survive, it needs to change the MOD1, revise the swerve test and remove other parts of it. It also needs to be better trained from DAY1 which will allow ATB’s to spend the time teaching rather than sticking to DSA’s guidelines which pushes a time frame to complete a CBT. Allow ATB’s to charge a fair price for ‘real’ training and reduce the cost of DAS and passing a full licence. Fight the anti bike members of our government and police force by being as courteous as possible to other road users and projecting a good image coupled with a great training regime. Most bikers are not hell raisers intent on speeding at all costs, or making a nuisance of themselves, we are just people who like 2 wheels and enjoy using them. I wonder if the health an safety bods have viewed the DSA's tests?

[Mightycaz]

both of my instuctors said it took them a fair few goes to be able to do it at the required speed and they have both been riding and instructing for the best part of 15 years.

 

I seriously hope that's bullsh*t.

 

The thing that really annoys me is I did the E stop straight after and stoppped with no problems, the annoying thing about it is I obviously showed I could do the E stop as I did it fine without the swerve.

 

My point exactly.

 

I looked down at the speedo and when I looked up I didn't have time to lean and swerve so I turned the bars (< mong!)

 

I think that illustrates perfectly why this is a worth while test. I could be misinterpreting what you wrote, but it makes it sound like you weren't taught to counter/active/push steer.

 

but a bigger run up

 

I'd possibly agree with that one

 

The instructors one isn't bull i'm afraid! Both of em said they had to practise a few times to get upto the required speed. not that they didn't have the ability but I think it was more nerves of pinning the throttle out and then swerving, they did say that the new advanced test for instructors requires you to do it at 60 which they have both done, they get a much bigger run up and run off of course!

I think you were misinterpreting what I said, it wasn't that I did'nt know how to "do" the swerve its because I wanted to check what my speed way because I didn't want to fail for going 2MPH too slow, It only takes about 2-3 seconds to look at the speedo and register what it says but it also only takes about 3 seconds to go from the corner to the swerve box which meant I rushed it and cocked it up good style!

[Aaron]

Well at least you had the throttle pinned when you came off!

I put my foot down on the slalom really late because i didn't want to fail for it, and the tester said he thought i was going to drop it and could only just hold it up! I was doing all of 3 mph

[GarethNW]

My instructors told me the same thing, even they get it wrong sometimes or at least they did when they first tried it

[Aaron]

My instructors told me the same thing, even they get it wrong sometimes or at least they did when they first tried it

 

God help anyone they're instructing then.

[2fast2soon]

My instructors told me the same thing, even they get it wrong sometimes or at least they did when they first tried it

I find it pretty hard to believe that the instructors, who have to pass a more advanced test to become instructors, couldn't get the bike up to speed. Unless the bike was terrible...

 

The swerve on its own is not a dangerous thing, it is combining it with getting up to a set speed (over our current 30mph speed limit), swerving and then braking. It is a lottery as to when a fatality will happen.

If people can't link these things up in a known sequence of events, albeit with test nerves, then how many fatalities are there going to be in real world situations with other road users and terrible road surfaces?

 

400 incidents since Mod1's introduction.

Whats the equivalent accident rate on the old style test across the same amount of time it took to get the 400 incidents on the mod 1?

 

I have also had very lengthy conversations with the select committee and the DSA to stress that the MOD1 does little for road safety and parts of it are dangerous.

In your opinion its dangerous, other people like myself believe its perfectly reasonable to ask riders to be at a standard where they can manage this before they are permitted to ride on the road without supervision.

 

Even the way motorbike instructors are managed by the DSA is appalling. Did you know there is no set training programme for them?

They have to pass a test to be a recognised trainer - if they are up to that standard then surely it doesn't matter how they learned? Some will be able to pass information on better than others, but they will probably all know if the student is capable of being entered for the mod1 & 2 tests.

 

some instructors earn minimum wage or below!

If you have proof of that - highlight it to the relevant authority and let them deal with the employers as that is illegal.

 

It’s simple, for motorcycling to survive, it needs to change the MOD1, revise the swerve test and remove other parts of it.

No, we need to reduce the amount of Killed or Seriously Injured accidents that involve bikers, that's what is giving biking such a bad name. Speak with IAM members or the Police and they will tell you how they have targets for KSIs and reducing it is the only way to stop government interference. The level of training does need to be improved but the trainers are only focussed on getting you through the exams so won't bother with good observational skills, the finer points of cornering and the art of braking effectively. If the test became easier, it would mean trainers would try to get you through the training faster rather than spending the extra time to make you much safer. How many people go on to do extra training after they've passed their test - probably not a huge percentage of the total biker community.

 

Fight the anti bike members of our government and police force by being as courteous as possible to other road users and projecting a good image coupled with a great training regime. Most bikers are not hell raisers intent on speeding at all costs, or making a nuisance of themselves, we are just people who like 2 wheels and enjoy using them.

I agree with this.

[Guest]

I think the reason instructors found it tricky was because it would go against all their training and knowledge, to knowingly accelerate up to a hazard and swerve around it. They would be trained to avoid such situations in the first place!

[GarethNW]

Guys I don't think any instructor was going to fall off or lock up the breaks. It was more that they didn't get the speed by 1kph and that came as a supprise to them. My instructor was very very good and he told me the second time he did it, it was something silly like 65kph cause he was a bit embarrassed.

[Aaron]

Guys I don't think any instructor was going to fall off or lock up the breaks. It was more that they didn't get the speed by 1kph and that came as a supprise to them. My instructor was very very good and he told me the second time he did it, it was something silly like 65kph cause he was a bit embarrassed.

 

That's why they're reasonable enough to give us two attempts Especially as speedos wont be 100% correct.

[Guest akey]

Having actually done the test on a 125 I dont think its unreasonable.

My question is how are schools dealing with this, how much practice do you get prior to going to the MOD1 and are schools rushing people through the MOD1, trying to hit the same student turn around time they did on the old system.

Question is it time to drop the 'get your DAS is a week' mentality.

Before DAS you would ride a 125 for a year or so before even thinking of taking your test, and the whole route was a slower and more different mindset. Along came the CBT and not much changed for a few years, you did your CBT did some lessons and took your test, pretty much like you did with a car.

Then as some point around the introduction of DAS the boom in 'get a bike in a week' courses came along - CBT on Mon, 2 or 3 days training and then test there you go!

This is a motorskill that is being tested, and it cant be taught to everyone in an hour, it takes repetition and practice to get right, it should also be taught buy increasing the speed over time so that students pick up the skill.

No I am not a bike instructor, but I am a qualified sports coach, but probably more importantly I have had many discussions with Qualified Flying Instructors (who also ride bikes) about this and they all agree that these sort of motorskills take time to train and this could be the reason for some of the accidents. As coaches and QFIs there is a saying - if the student fails its for one of 2 reasons they were not instructed correctly (test to soon, not enough instruction) or they were not ready for the test. Obvioulsly there are cases where this is not the reason, but these are human error and are much more rare than you would think.

[lingy3]

Agree with Akey,

DAS in a week from scratch,without any previous on road bike experience is not the way.

To throw hat in the ring on mod1, may as well toss a coin pass or fail for me,

bad test

[GarethNW]

Before DAS you would ride a 125 for a year or so before even thinking of taking your test

 

Couldn't agree more.

The riding schools are expected to give you a 5 day course and get you passed! That is very hard to do now, 80% fail rate for ppl who have only 5 days experience on a bike.

CBT

125 for a year then pass ur real test when things like slow speed riding is second nature.

And when I was training on the 500 (only had one lesson then 2 hours before my test) you could easily tell which folk had experience and which ones didn't

Over all don't bloody rush!

[Susieque]

If people can't link these things up in a known sequence of events, albeit with test nerves, then how many fatalities are there going to be in real world situations with other road users and terrible road surfaces?

 

I agree with the point about road users etc but surely we don't want any fatalities in the test situation either. If the test can be modified to ensure rider's safety whilst undertaking the test AND testing the rider's ability in dealing with emergency situations then this has to be done.

 

In your opinion its dangerous, other people like myself believe its perfectly reasonable to ask riders to be at a standard where they can manage this before they are permitted to ride on the road without supervision.

 

No question about this, but as Phil has said the structure of training from CBT to gaining a licence could be improved to ensure a better standard of riding.

 

The CBT is too basic a course and should be extended and have a minimum number of hours imposed. The CBT is more important than any other riding course and should prepare a new rider with the skills and confidence needed to be safe on the road. Everything else should build on the CBT and less emphasis should be put on the DAS . Teach a real course from the start and everything else will fall into place.

 

Makes real sense! How many times to we on here complain about 'chavs' on scooters hooning around with little regard for theirs and other's safety? If they were required to undertake a proper period of training before being allowed to jump on 2 wheels then they might take the whole thing more seriously and behave more responsibly!

[2fast2soon]

I agree with the point about road users etc but surely we don't want any fatalities in the test situation either. If the test can be modified to ensure rider's safety whilst undertaking the test AND testing the rider's ability in dealing with emergency situations then this has to be done.

 

I agree with you that we don't want fatalities but unfortunately motorbikes are inherently dangerous if you come off them. The test centres use state of the art road surfaces to make it grippier even in wet conditions (well those that were laid down properly!?!) so I believe they are doing all they can at the moment to make it safe.

If they give people a bigger run up and more time and space then they are making the test easier and possibly allowing riders that aren't up to a reasonably safe standard onto the public highways. I would bet that even with more space to accelerate and brake, there would still be people falling off the bike.

[Aaron]

I agree with the point about road users etc but surely we don't want any fatalities in the test situation either. If the test can be modified to ensure rider's safety whilst undertaking the test AND testing the rider's ability in dealing with emergency situations then this has to be done.

 

I'd suggest then that perhaps the problem is with people being put forward for their mod1 without proper preparation. This would also fall inline with some of the other views expressed in this thread. I don't know how this can be achieved though when people on a 125 can pay £15 and rock up whenever they like. I agree with the sentiment though. More thought is needed to help ensure safety without dumbing down the test.

 

No question about this, but as Phil has said the structure of training from CBT to gaining a licence could be improved to ensure a better standard of riding.

 

Probably true too. My CBT, for example, was abysmal. I'd never sat on a bike before. It was raining pretty bad most of the day which resulted in me getting very little time on the bike. I was the only one without any experience. When we went out on the road i was barely in control of my bike and i'm almost certain that it wasn't the full 2 hours required.

This wasn't a problem for the CBT. THe situation meant that it was safe enough even with my newbness. But the point is that i'm then allowed out on the road on my own

I can't imagine what it would be like for a 16 year old who doesn't drive. I'd been driving for 12 years or so, so it wasn't so bad, which is perhaps why they were ok with giving me my certificate.

Trouble is that they're in an akward situation in times like that. The rain ruins the day, but i paid £90 or so and want a certificate! I certainly wouldn't be ok with paying another £90. I guess they can spot the difference between people that just need a little more saddle time, and those that need more tuition, but the point is that a CBT is VERY little preperation for the open road.

[polecat]

I thought the mod 1 was stupid and impossible on a 125 but on my 2nd attempt of the test and 7th run on the speed trap I passed.

So I didnt just pay £15 and rock up for the test I drove thousands of miles over several years unlike some of the DAS students who payed £500 and learned to pass a test in a week

The reason I found the mod 1 Swerve horendous was due to lack of Practice and the only place you can truly practice this "stunt" is on the mod 1 test I belive.

So I would say keep the test as it is by all means But The Test center is only open on sundays So there needs to be an authentic way to practice this manoever inless you look on the mod 1 test as that practice and when you Do it then you pass ?

Its only £15 to hire this mod1 course to practice on and you get a DSA Examiner to review you at the end ? maby this is the way to look at it and only Floor the Bike on your 2nd or 3rd Test when you are ready.

This may cut down on accidents if people are not so determined NOT to fail ? and Ride beyond their experience on the First test ?

Its more or less what My DSA examiner was saying when I finally passed it

[Hywel]

I'm in the 'what's all this fuss about?' camp I'm affraid.

I have nothing against the 'swerve and stop' or 'avoidance maneuver' as the examiners are now calling it. I had to do it and thought it was by far the easiest part of mod1. I think the distance / availability of testing centres is a problem but I get the feeling people just got caught up in all the media scare stuff *waggles fist at MCN*, and so did I until I had to do it... it is honestly a gentle sway back and forth. You'd have to do something severe like grab the front brake hard during the turn to come a cropper.

A sensible alteration would be to extend the stopping distance by 2m in the wet but as has already been said; if you can't pull this off without panicking and throwing on the anchors while the bike is leant over then you're a long way off being under reasonable control of your machine.

Also, it's not as if they've replaced observation / planning / road sense with coarse avoidance drills... the module 1 stuff is about machine control while the previously mentioned road based training carries on as far as I could tell.

If 'motorcycling' as an industry is being affected negatively, blame the media, not the test.

[Hywel]

Also...

 

I'd suggest then that perhaps the problem is with people being put forward for their mod1 without proper preparation

 

ding-ding-ding-ding!!!! Spot on.

[Aaron]

I thought the mod 1 was stupid and impossible on a 125 but on my 2nd attempt of the test and 7th run on the speed trap I passed.

So I didnt just pay £15 and rock up for the test I drove thousands of miles over several years unlike some of the DAS students who payed £500 and learned to pass a test in a week

The reason I found the mod 1 Swerve horendous was due to lack of Practice and the only place you can truly practice this "stunt" is on the mod 1 test I belive.

So I would say keep the test as it is by all means But The Test center is only open on sundays So there needs to be an authentic way to practice this manoever inless you look on the mod 1 test as that practice and when you Do it then you pass ?

Its only £15 to hire this mod1 course to practice on and you get a DSA Examiner to review you at the end ? maby this is the way to look at it and only Floor the Bike on your 2nd or 3rd Test when you are ready.

This may cut down on accidents if people are not so determined NOT to fail ? and Ride beyond their experience on the First test ?

Its more or less what My DSA examiner was saying when I finally passed it

 

Your example is pretty much what i'm talking about. So when i talk about 125 riders just 'rocking up' i don't mean with no riding experience, but that because you don't NEED and instructor, i guess alot, or most, don't.

I did DAS, although with zero previous experience it cost me a little over 1k after a mod1 and mod2 fail, and therefore HAD to have an instructor. All he did was take me to a virtually unused road off of an industrial estate and layed out 5 half tennis balls. 2 for the speed trap, 1 which i had to swerve around, and 2 for the box to stop in (had to have front axle right in between the 2 tennis balls). There was a roundabout at the end of the road which was handly to simulate the bend in the test.

He made all the distances harder: so a shorter run-up. Shorter stopping distance. And a MUCH bigger swerve (although some of that was needed because the cones stick up and get hit by a foot or whatever, where tennis balls don't.). The idea is that if i can do that, then the test will be easy.

He had me just riding up the road, around the roundabout, and back down the road throught the fake speed trap, round the swerve, and stopping in the box. 20mph first. Then 25. Then 30, etc, etc. We did that over and over untill my speed and swerve and stop was consistantly good.

The only trouble was we could only do a right hand swerve because he said there was no way on earth he was getting us to swerve towards the kerb

When we arrived at the test center during my next lesson he showed me the course, and i was shocked. It was huge, and all of the cones were so much farther apart than i'd practised.

So, the point i'm trying to make is that the test is easy. But if you've not prepared properly then you're asking to fail. If you've not prepared properly AND you're a poor rider then you're asking to crash.

I don't know if there is such a thing, as i didn't organise my own mod1, but maybe there should be a STRONG recommendation that candidates have some kind of proffessional mod1 practise session first. It'll cost - but then IF you're a pants rider, AND you don't want to pay for a lesson, then you deserve to crash.

 

So I didnt just pay £15 and rock up for the test I drove thousands of miles over several years unlike some of the DAS students who payed £500 and learned to pass a test in a week

 

Perhaps that's an indication that thousands of miles is not, by default, better than proffessional tuition. 50 miles of correct riding is better than 2 thousand miles of poor riding. And that's not a personal dig, although it sounds like it. I'm just saying that someone on a 125 could have ridden 10 thousand miles without ever having learned some of the fundamental things everyone should know. Just look on youtube at all the videos of riders, mostly in america where you don't need any training at all, trying to figure out this countersteering voodoo. It's crazy that these people ride on the public roads without fundamental understanding of how their vehicles work.

** EDIT ** In your case though, you probably just needed a practise, as you suggested. I'm just saying that it's naive of many riders to think that they'll easily pass, and be safe, just because they've clocked up some miles.

[Rollingskies]

I personally suspect the reason for accidents is that people are turning up for module 1 with either a) no training b) not enough. People get their CBT and then after a few months on the road put themselves in for the tests. My riding school has a 75% module 1 first time pass and a 90% first time module 2 pass. The clatters and fall offs happen not on the test, but when people first get on a bike.

I really think most of those offs will be people just trying to do it cheap, not all, but most. I practiced the swerve lots of times before my test. First we hired out the DSA court for a few hours a week before and then the day of the test we went on country lanes and practiced all over the road!! Over and over.

I would like to see a longer stopping distance or a bigger area to stop in, but apart from that I think it's good. I actually used that swerve skill today on a 4" pothole I spotted at the last minute. It's the first time I've had to do a proper swerve since my test.

[Rollingskies]

I thought the mod 1 was stupid and impossible on a 125 but on my 2nd attempt of the test and 7th run on the speed trap I passed.

So I didnt just pay £15 and rock up for the test I drove thousands of miles over several years unlike some of the DAS students who payed £500 and learned to pass a test in a week

 

I personally think proper professional training is the best. I won't forget some really hair raising moments and my instructor leathering me afterwards! I tried really hard to concentrate and learn as much about safety as I could. Riding the machine comes with time (the thousands of miles), but a proper understand of road psychology, driver behaviour etc etc requires experience and an instructor will pick up on little things; but those little things can suddenly become BIG things when something goes wrong. I know my £600 DAS could be an investment on my life.