Ducati ST2 : Amateur Restoration Take 2

[Hairsy]

A brief update as I don't have time to get properly stuck into the bike at the moment but I have finally managed to connect my laptop to the ECU. I've started the bike and seen data coming through. There were a couple of faults reported but I don't know how historical they are so nothing meaningful yet.

 

For anyone wishing to do the same in a Ducati ST2, I'm using:

 

Converter cable : https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CQLWG14V?ref_=pe_27063361_487360311_302_E_DDE_dt_1

 

USB interface : https://www.lonelec.com/product/tune-ecu-kkl-interface-cable-lead-for-triumph-motorcycles/?attribute_cable-bundle=with+USB-A+Cable

 

IAW Diag Software : https://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/ (Set to 'IAW 16M PF09' ECU)

 

I strongly recommend www.lonelec.com for advice / diagnostic cable solutions. I've learned that the so called 'standard' of OBD ports is no such thing and expertise was essential for me. The support was excellent - even starting with them trying to make my purchase from another supplier work.

 

I'll update more when I've had some time to actually use the setup. But I'm very happy with today's progress.

[Hairsy]

Finally managed to get back to the Ducati today.

 

I hooked up the diagnostics cables, selected the engine parameters that I thought would be most helpful and started the bike.

 

 

Weirdly, it seemed to start and run slightly better than before. But only slightly - and maybe it was just in my mind.

 

I then watched the readings. I also attempted a screen record so that I could look back at what was happening - but I was let down by my own incompetence and that didn't work. So I just took a video of the screen. I initially messed up my recording so I missed recording the period when it was cold - but please just trust me that there was nothing significant / different. Here's a little snippet of it running

 

 

I welcome comments from anyone who knows these bikes but my initial observations:

 

1) Temperature / pressure / throttle / rpm sensors are all functioning correctly

 

2) Although you can't see it on the video, there wasn't much of a change in injector timing between cold and warm, which surprised me a bit. But the bike didn't seem to run any better or worse as it warmed up so I don't think this is significant

 

3) Also not on video, but I did try dropping to around 1100rpm and the bike would cut out, as it did in the previous video. However there was no significant change in readings that suggested a failed reading.

 

4) I checked for fault codes. There were some old codes which I deleted and no new codes were generated during today's running.

 

5) CO Trim is shown stuck at +128

 

As I've mentioned in previous posts, point (5) was what I was expecting, based on how fuel trim works on ECUs that I've looked at in the past. However (of course there has to be a However when things are looking promising), I then did some research to see what fuel trim reading I should be expecting ...

 

And, from what I've read, it's now my understanding that this ECU doesn't monitor O2 levels and then adjust fuel trim accordingly. Instead, there is a potentiometer in the ECU that can be adjusted to provide a fixed trim / override to the fuel map. I now believe that the reading of 128 that I'm seeing is what that trim is currently set to - the ECU simply responds to that trim, it doesn't control it. I suspect that the trim can be adjusted from -128 to +128.

 

Where does this leave me?

 

I don't think it changes my next planned step, which was going to be to clean the injectors. My only guess re that trim reading (and it really is a guess) is that someone has previously tried to compensate for dirty injectors by turning up the trim level. However, there's a significant flaw in this theory - the original factory sticker that covers the adjustment pot appears to be untouched.

 

So my conclusion for today is that the sensors all seem OK and that it's right to suspect the injectors. I've got an injector cleaning kit that I hope to try this week - I really don't know whether that's going to be successful but it's worth a try and hopefully my experience will help someone in the future either way. I'll report back ...

[Simon Davey]

Great report, good reading. 

Fingers crossed it's just the injectors. 

[RideWithStyles]

2) Although you can't see it on the video, there wasn't much of a change in injector timing between cold and warm, which surprised me a bit. But the bike didn't seem to run any better or worse as it warmed up so I don't think this is significant.

timing shouldnt to much wont when cold or hot only on load.

 

3) Also not on video, but I did try dropping to around 1100rpm and the bike would cut out, as it did in the previous video. However there was no significant change in readings that suggested a failed reading.

 

4) I checked for fault codes. There were some old codes which I deleted and no new codes were generated during today's running.

 

5) CO Trim is shown stuck at +128

 

As I've mentioned in previous posts, point (5) was what I was expecting, based on how fuel trim works on ECUs that I've looked at in the past. However (of course there has to be a However when things are looking promising), I then did some research to see what fuel trim reading I should be expecting ...

 

And, from what I've read, it's now my understanding that this ECU doesn't monitor O2 levels and then adjust fuel trim accordingly. Instead, there is a potentiometer in the ECU that can be adjusted to provide a fixed trim / override to the fuel map. I now believe that the reading of 128 that I'm seeing is what that trim is currently set to - the ECU simply responds to that trim, it doesn't control it. I suspect that the trim can be adjusted from -128 to +128.

Yes it’s guessed /assumed program, if there is no lamba probe in the exhaust, it cant check, more likely it’s using a different parameter and setting to go by.

 

Where does this leave me?

 

I don't think it changes my next planned step, which was going to be to clean the injectors. You could clean it but they weren’t brilliant for atomisation even when new.

My only guess re that trim reading (and it really is a guess) is that someone has previously tried to compensate for dirty injectors by turning up the trim level. However, there's a significant flaw in this theory - the original factory sticker that covers the adjustment pot appears to be untouched.

yep sounds like a red herring to me,

it could be more likely something else  hence the high trim as to a small silly thing is not letting the bike do its thing…

 

So my conclusion for today is that the sensors all seem OK and that it's right to suspect the injectors. I've got an injector cleaning kit that I hope to try this week - I really don't know whether that's going to be successful but it's worth a try and hopefully my experience will help someone in the future either way. I'll report back ...

Edited December 16, 2024 by RideWithStyles

[Hairsy]

I must start today's update by saying how grateful I am to @Egon247 for sharing his ups and downs. It makes it easier to know you have someone going through similar experiences - although his right now seem tougher than mine so wishing you the best my friend.

 

Today I decided to have a go at cleaning the injectors.

 

Airbox off first - after my previous nightmare getting it back on, I've got a better understanding of how it fits into the bike but it's still hard work to remove. But I won the battle.

 

The injectors are then very easy to access. The electrical connection was easy to remove and then, once I'd worked out the collar system that holds the fuel supply in place, I was able to remove the fuel line.

 

Now for your amusement ... I had made an assumption that I wouldn't need to drain the tank of the small amount of fuel in there - after all, there's filters and a high pressure fuel pump that are going to stop fuel flowing when there's no power to the pump. What was I thinking! Of all the stupid things to assume ...

 

So as soon as the fuel supply was removed from the first injector, I had a steady flow of fuel coming out of the fuel line. The obvious thing to do was to jam the fuel supply back onto the injector and then drain the tank. However the O ring from the top of the injector had managed to get stuck in the fuel supply connector but wasn't any longer in there straight. It was therefore impossible to reconnect it to the injector. And I was stuck with my thumb stopping the fuel flow and without any useful tools in reach. I contemplated waiting the 2 hours before my wife would get home but decided I couldn't deal with that. So I leaped across the garage to grab a fuel can and then leaped back again to reinstall my thumb and stop the flow. I then managed to get the little black extension pipe of the fuel can attached to the can and to route it up from below so that the stream of fuel would flow into the can. This solution only took 2-3 minutes to figure out but I assure you they were long minutes.

 

Incidentally, I had fitted a fire extinguisher to the wall in my garage at the weekend after a friend of a friend burned his house down last week in a garage fire that started when he was working on one of his cars. Knowing it was there was a slightly comfort during the above mentioned event.

 

Anyway, after a while that self-induced crisis was averted and I was able to fully remove both injectors.

 

 

One injector removed, the other still in place.

I initially put some injector cleaner into the filter basket of the injectors and let it sit for half an hour, with the 'firing' end of the injector also sitting in some cleaner.

 

The injector cleaner kit that I bought has two types of injector electrical connectors, with two croc clips on the other end to enable a 12v source to open the injector. There are also 2 different sized plastic 'manifolds' (for want of a better word) that will direct the output from a can of injector cleaner into the injector. The injector O ring helps to seal the injector in the manifold. You then force the manifold thing down onto the can and the cleaner sprays through the manifold and into the injector. At the same time as doing that, you put one croc clip on a terminal of as 12v battery and then tap the other croc clip on the other terminal to open and close the injector. It's important not to just hold the injector open as they can overheat in a few seconds if held open.

 

As you can probably imagine, taking pictures of all of this happening would require more hands than I have but hopefully you get the gist from this picture.

 

 

First of all, I tried to give it a back flow - I've read that this can help with cleaning crud from the basket filter. I'd already given the filters a visual check and they looked very clean and white. In practice, trying to push a back flow wasn't successful and resulted in the cleaner spraying everywhere except through the injector. I don't know whether it's good or bad news that the filters were already so clean - I'd had visions of lots of crud in there that I could remove and feel I'd made a difference.

 

I then did a forward flowing clean and that worked much better. Both injectors got a good amount of cleaner through them and there was good atomisation from both. It's difficult to tell how different the flow is after the cleaning - the first 'squirt' was a bit of a mess on both as I tried to get everything well sealed so that cleaner didn't squirt out in every direction. Everything I've read suggests that the major cleaning happens in the first couple of seconds so, by the time I'd got everything flowing nicely, the injectors were already spraying a nice pattern. However the good news is that I'm left with confidence that there's a decent flow.

 

I then refitted the injectors to the bike and started it and ... a steady flow of fuel spewing out on the floor. So I turned the bike off immediately, had a look and saw that one of the injectors was leaking. Upon removing the fuel line, I found that one of the O rings was damaged. I don't know whether I caused it or whether it was already damaged but, either way, it needs replacing. Ducati don't sell the O ring - they want you to buy a new injector for £330. So I popped down to a local place who I hope can help but found that they're closed on Mondays.

 

So I'll head back to see them tomorrow. I'll be buying 4 O rings and changing both of the ones on the leaking injector. I won't disturb the other one for now but will have 2 spare O rings just in case.

 

And hopefully I'll then finally be able to see whether this job has made any difference to my running issue.

[Egon247]

Just measure up the o ring. Ducati buy them from o ring manufacturers, they don't make them themselves. 

As long as it fuel proof you'll be grand. 

I did the same with my last Alfa, took them all out, did the same thing and then found I'd lost one.

[Hairsy]

11 minutes ago, Egon247 said:

Just measure up the o ring. Ducati buy them from o ring manufacturers, they don't make them themselves. 

As long as it fuel proof you'll be grand. 

I did the same with my last Alfa, took them all out, did the same thing and then found I'd lost one.

 

Yes - and I do wonder whether Ducati would really replace an injector in practice. I'm hoping that the local place will have them in stock tomorrow but if not then I'll just order some.

[Simon Davey]

So much progress @Hairsy, fingers crossed for you matey that it does the trick.

 

[Hairsy]

Slightly disappointing visit to the local bike shop - they couldn't help me with O rings. Apparently they have some in the workshop but they 'might not be the right size' and I should probably just order some. No offer to ask / check in the workshop or try to help the customer by ordering them for me. What happened to good old fashioned service? I could have ordered them yesterday to arrive today but wanted to support my local shop.

 

Anyway, O rings are now ordered and should arrive tomorrow.

 

I find that when I'm feeling discouraged it helps to do a bit of cosmetic cleaning. It helps to remind me that beyond all the headaches and frustration, there just might be a gem of a bike. So I got the paraffin and Muc Off out and dealt with some of the hard to see / reach bits of engine. The bits that no-one will ever see but I'd know about if I didn't deal with them. Not really photo worthy but feels good to get them done. They're the bits that make me feel good later.

 

I then spotted the chain and thought I'd see whether there was any sign of a decent chain under the grime. I cleaned up the area around the front sprocket and then attached the chain itself.

 

 

It still needs another clean but that was really satisfying. Part of me doesn't understand the lack of mechanical sympathy that leads to allowing so much of a build up on a chain.  Another part of me is very grateful for it because it has protected the chain from rusting over the many years the bike has sat unused.

 

Assuming that I've measured and ordered the O rings correctly, the next report will be one of joy or deep woe.

[Hairsy]

Frustrating day.

 

The new O rings arrived which was today's good news. I decided to do the sensible thing and take both injectors out and replace the O rings in both. If one has given up then the others are likely to follow soon.

 

I put them back in place and hit the starter button and ... nothing. Bike turns over but won't start at all now.

 

My first thought was that I must have dislodged something when cleaning yesterday but I can't find anything that I've moved.

 

I checked for spark with a old plug I had lying around and spark is good.

 

I checked for diagnostic faults - injector fault. I must have switched the ignition on when they weren't installed. Cleared the fault and tried again but the fault didn't repeat itself.

 

I then checked that I'm getting some voltage at the injector electrical feed. All good. I have a strong suspicion that I have a new electrical tester sitting under the tree with built in oscilloscope - that would be really useful right now to check the injector feed is right but it's not an option today!

 

I also checked that the injectors click when applying 12v to them - they do.

 

Still nothing so I finally pulled the injectors out but left them connected to fuel and electrics and turned the bike over with the injectors firing into jars. One of them is definitely not working well. I really don't understand this as they both seemed to have a consistent good spray when I was firing cleaner through them.

 

I've had enough for today but tomorrow I'll have another go at cleaning them. If that fails then I suspect I may need to go down the line of either buying at least one second hand injector or, I think preferably, look at getting the current injectors serviced.

 

Another odd thing (which I think I've mentioned before but is increasingly on my mind) is that the diagnostic software says that my 'CO Trimm' is '128'. My understanding is that this trim applies a factor to the fuel map to allow the idle mixture to be tuned. It apparently has a little effect higher up the rev range as well but it's mainly about idle. So it could be a factor in my problem. I've struggled to get info online about this setting though and the Ducati manual is not great. However I believe that I should expect the value to be between -127 and +127. I also believe it's adjusted via a pot in the ECU. The ECU has a seal on it from the factory and it's in place so I don't think it's been tampered with. However, I broke through the seal and tried moving the pot to see where it's set and how it affects the ECU reading . This didn't make any change to the reading in the diagnostic software at all. I think this means that either I've misunderstood how the trim works or that the ECU has a problem. For now I've returned the pot to its original position and sought some info on a Ducati forum.

 

So a tricky day. All my hopes are on tomorrow's repeat of the injector cleaning - but, truth be told, I'm not optimistic. And I'm worried about the ECU. In my optimistic moment, I think that the bike is only 13,000 miles old and the ECU doesn't seem to have been previously opened. Additionally, all indications are that it hasn't been left out in the wet.

 

I hope tomorrow goes better.

[Simon Davey]

Don't hate me, but, did you put the fuel back in the tank?

[Hairsy]

40 minutes ago, Simon Davey said:

Don't hate me, but, did you put the fuel back in the tank?

 

Definitely don't hate you for that. But, sadly, yes.

 

I've been thinking more about it and if the injectors seem clear but I'm still getting the problem then I think my next stage is going to be opening up the tank and stripping down and checking / cleaning / replacing the pump & filters that sit in there. The previous owner told me he did this but that's never a guarantee.

[Hairsy]

Not a lot of spare time available today but I started early. And I'm feeling quite pleased that I did.

 

I pulled the injectors once again, carefully checking that I'd seated everything correctly when previously fitting (which, sadly, I had) and gave them another blast of cleaning. This felt like a pointless exercise. They're blowing a nice atomised flow and the extra clean didn't seem to make any difference.

 

I then tried testing them on the bike connected up to the fuel supply, firing them into a jar. In practice, it's a very crude test. There's only a tiny amount of fuel coming out and the shape of the jar distorts the view - not to mention the fact that I'm watching all this in the dark underneath the tank. I gave up on this test - I couldn't see enough for it to tell me anything conclusive.

 

So I refitted everything, very carefully, and put the fuel back in. Over the course of early running, fuel leaks and other issues, my initial 5 litres of fuel has dropped to about 3. This should be fine but I pulled another couple of litres out of my day bike and put that in there - just in case the pump was struggling to pull enough fuel.

 

I then cranked the bike over and still there was no firing but, after a time, I could hear the odd cough and eventually she fired up. This put a big smile on my face!

 

As the bike warmed up, I was able to drop the idle to 1,100 (the recommended level)- in fact, it could actually drop to around 900 although it wouldn't run smoothly. But that's fine. This was all done using the fast idle control, which shouldn't actually allow it to drop as low as 900. But the point is, the bike can now idle much lower than it could before. This is a win. The cheap injector clean appears to have delivered a benefit.

 

https://youtu.be/aqtq82t8R6o

 

On a slightly less positive note, reving the bike still results in the some coughs & splutters and sometimes that's significant enough for the revs to drop to zero. Also, even revving a small amount will, more often than not, cause the revs to drop out completely rather than settle back to an idle.

 

 

So I've made definite progress but things still aren't right. I could start playing with idle mixture settings, that CO Trim that continues to worry me, throttle body balance, etc but I don't want to go there yet - I'm still not comfortable that there isn't something more basic.

 

[Incidentally, as I mentioned yesterday, I've sought information on the CO Trimm setting on a Ducati forum. As happens so often on the internet, I've got roughly a 50/50 split between people telling me that my observations are completely normal and people telling me it's terrible.]

 

In pursuit of that 'something more basic', I decided to take a look inside the tank during priming. I thought I'd done this before and perhaps I did that when I had a lot more fuel in (the original fuel that I got rid of). Either way though, I think I missed something. I noticed today that there's a stream of fuel flowing inside the tank around the fuel pump. Ducati documentation really isn't all it could be but after reviewing the manual and the parts diagram, I really don't think there should be any fuel flowing from that area.

 

https://youtu.be/y5kVF4INumM

 

This is potentially really good news - while the injector clean has clearly made a material improvement, my remaining symptoms do seem to align with fuel starvation. So, as I was considering yesterday, my next step is definitely going to be to take apart the fuel tank and examine the pump / filters / degassing unit / hoses / etc to see if I can find a problem.

 

I'm not sure when that job will happen but it's definitely left me feeling positive.

[Simon Davey]

Great news that the injectors have been sorted by a clean. 

 

Rein back the excitement regarding fuel flow in the tank. 

The fuel pumps will pump, but when there's nowhere to pump to (engine off/idle) it'll need to vent the fuel back into the tank. 

 

However, like you, I think you're on to something. 

Maybe it's leaking into the tank, maybe it's leaking/venting into the tank because of a blockage causing back pressure? 

Edited December 19, 2024 by Simon Davey

[Simon Davey]

By the way, first video link is private on YouTube 

[Hairsy]

Yes, in a moment of excitement, I took the pump assembly out and there is a clearly intentional outlet roughly where I think that was coming from - at the top of the degassing unit. Which is a bit disappointing. I'd expected the pressure relief to happen lower.

 

Hopefully I'll still find something suspicious when I disassemble it.

 

Not sure what's happening with the first video as it seemed to be set as just unlisted like the others. I've changed it to public to see if that improves it.

[Hairsy]

I had half an hour to spare so I took everything apart and cleaned it up a bit. Unfortunately there was nothing obviously amiss. When I blew through the filter the fuel that came out was a bit mucky looking so I've ordered a new filter. At least that can give me a glimmer of hope that it'll be better when I put it back together.

[RideWithStyles]

Wonder if you have a small problem alone with another one that is causing part of it? Air leak or a rubber hose/seal getting past for example? So if you rev it it pressure closes or opens up the hole but when it’s relaxed it’s normal, As would be worth spraying carb or brake cleaner around parts of it to see if something changes as its idle or reving.

To check if the tank by bypass it -you hook up a cheap auxiliary fuel tank (a bottle with a pipe) with fresh fuel and test if anything changes if not then the tank is fine.

 

what I thinking is as the vid, the initial throttle seem slow and dry, when you rev it past the 3/4 thou it seemed happier, and just after the shut off -

it might not be a injector issue especially as you’ve checked the injection 

now I’d test a few different ways slowly bringing up the revs a thou a sec or two, and back down the same way, then faster, does it make much difference? 

have you checked the plugs? Are they fouled up or really dry?

Is one cylinder/manifold colder than the other shortly afterwards when started from cold? That will give a clue as to which one is bing a problem and work from there of swapping a good cylinders components to the bad one each Time and go from eliminating.

is the trim setting as is set just for full load or idle if you dont know and whats its related to?  so is + full resistance or non in the wiring so it’s maxed or not out due to a sensor problem? Some parts need a resistance to say its ok, same with airbags and weight sensors….Just a thought.

 

the only true way to test the injector as per your test is to know at what given rev or voltage in the case of the injector to what ml of fuel delivered at a given duration of time you get, so at x volts over x time you should get x ml of fuel.

injector mist is quite fine rather than a bush or lob in like carbs do for atomised burning.

[Hairsy]

Really appreciate your thoughts.

 

I have a new fuel filter hopefully arriving today. Initially I found a discounted Ducati fuel filter for £27. Later, I found out the manufacturer and part number and was able to find one for £16 - identical filter but without a Ducati logo. I was able to cancel the original order as it hadn't been sent. Savings like this matter when you're on a budget!

 

Anecdotally these bikes are quite sensitive to a dirty filter - I guess the pump isn't exactly over-engineered and can't cope with much extra resistance to flow. I always tend to be overly optimistic but I have 3 reasons to be hopeful this is the problem:

 

1) The date on the existing filter was 1999

2) The previous owner replaced the original tank because it was dented and rusty. I specifically asked him if he had changed the filter when he swapped tanks. He said yes but (1) suggests otherwise.

3) I cut open the old filter last night and the paper element was very dark brown with rust. I was able to scrape remnants of powdered rust off it.

 

 

In terms of your other ideas, some of them I've covered off but some I haven't.

 

- I've cleaned and carefully inspected all the fuel pipes inside and outside the tank - they all look in really good condition. If I get desperate later then I may just replace them but I'm fairly confident that they're OK and can't afford to buy new parts until I'm fairly sure they're needed.

- The plugs looked Ok but I did replace them anyway, just to rule that out. 

- Good idea re spraying carb cleaner around - I've added that to my list of things to check next time its running if the fuel filter doesn't improve things.

- Both manifolds heat at the same rate.

- The trim applies a factor (plus or minus) in relation to what the fuel map states. Information online is really sparse but I believe it's probably a fixed amount rather than a percentage as people seem to indicate that it has a much great impact at idle than higher in the rev range. I'm still hoping that the trim issue is a red herring.

- I can monitor all the sensors using the diagnostic software and they're all giving sensible readings (various temperatures, atmospheric pressure, throttle opening, etc) so I believe they're OK

- Absolutely agree re injector testing - I think I've done as much as I can in my amateur garage. If I continue to suspect injectors then I'll need to send them to a professional for a proper service & clean and a flow test

 

Thanks again - appreciate the input.

[Simon Davey]

You're going to love this bike, it'll be one you'll always talk about. Maybe with expletives

[Hairsy]

Filter arrived and was installed. Before and after pics:

 

 

Stuffed everything into the tank and sealed it up (that's a lot easier to type than to do). And then it wouldn't start. I then remembered that when I'd emptied the hoses to do the injectors, I'd had a similar problem which was resolved by putting some more fuel in. I think the pump struggles to prime when there's only a small amount of fuel at the bottom of the tank. Once the system is primed it's fine.

 

So I added some more fuel and, sure enough, it started.

 

And it's running smoother still and happily revs well up the rev range. It's settling to an idle better than it did before but it still sometimes stalls at idle. So more progress but I still haven't got there.

 

This is the first fuel injected bike that I've tried to bring back to life so I'm out of my comfort zone. However the behaviour now is reminiscent of a multi carb bike that hasn't been set up well. So I'm going to spend some time looking at the setup and see if I can improve it.

 

In particular, because the bike has no lambda sensors, the fuelling is driven mostly by throttle position and rpm, with adjustments made for engine & air temperature + atmospheric pressure.

 

I've finally managed to get a bit more detailed information about the injection setup. The Throttle Position Sensor is adjustable and it's important that it's providing the ECU with exactly the right voltage at idle - any error with this and the fuelling is going to be wrong throughout the map. The TPS has to be set correctly in relation to the idle stops which I'm suspicious of and my gut says that the throttle body balance isn't great.

 

To get all this right, I need to release all cables and then reset the throttle stops to butterflies closed, reset the TPS voltage to give what the ECU expects at that setting, then set the throttle stops to where they should be for a factory idle (using TPS readings), then set both mixtures and finally work on the balance. After this, there might be a need to adjust the ECU trim. Lots to get wrong!

 

So my next job is going to be carefully noting down where everything is set at the moment in case I make matters worse and need to restore. I'll then start working through the list above. Most of it can be done using the diagnostic software and I can work on balance with standard carb balancing gear. There are default settings for the mixture but if I can borrow an exhaust gas analyser then that would be even better.

 

It's anyone's guess what this will do but it feels a sensible next step - and it's all experience. And I can always set everything back if this makes matters worse.

Edited December 20, 2024 by Hairsy

[RideWithStyles]

it will be a good fun bike when running well.

brother had many Ducatis (which I rode) but I never bought one myself.

 

the only thing is there is no history of it and me personally I’d always assume someone has done a Rodney to everything on it until you have definitely confirmed yourself it’s cleared. Hence the fuel pump., they sit low but don’t always get fuel in as the have a wall around them and suck air.

Yes correct so if the tps (sensor and wiring) isn’t seated well it can’t see what it’s doing and waiting for a pick up timing to tell it, very common on Yamahas of the early r1 and tmax. Not clever enough to say it’s missing parts of info expected , it just does stuff as it see’s/told so very well could be this as silly as it sounds a bike on at very high revs, full load, on full (ish) throttle is easier for it to work out what to do with itself than when it’s at idle or just above it.

Id check this first before fiddling with settings.

 

the airbox temp wire and sensor is very flimsy and doesn’t take kindly to ham fisted, error codes don’t always show up, they have VERY little resistors to work (like 0.25 or something daft). As a general rule they dont completely stall a bike more likely it will run abit leaner or richer but not by much.If you had a volt meter or a system to pass through it to check your getting the correct value from it.

the throttle bodies have to be very clean and seated well inside and out. So checking the springs, mounts, rubbers are important, hence the spray idea.

 

Agree to take note of what settings everything thing is now.

then tweak one thing to test, note what it did.

RESET IT TO THE ORIGINAL SETTING, Let cool down, tweak something else to test, note what it did and so on.

id avoid tweaking many things at the same time if your not sure what effect each has or how much a ratio does? If it or any of them are linear or does it ramp up-  at what point?

so x and y might have 0-100 values, x to 25 does nothing but at 50 it trebles while y at 25 might do a lot for example. 

[V650]

TPS adjustment looks pretty involved 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku6pS9yTvjY

 

Have Fun 

 

[Hairsy]

49 minutes ago, V650 said:

TPS adjustment looks pretty involved 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku6pS9yTvjY

 

 

It is! That's the guy whose info I'm now using - he's produced a very good written guide to it (https://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vthrottleb.html). Combined with the factory manual and his video, I think I'm comfortable having a go at. Very slowly and very methodically. With a lot of note taking.

At this moment, I have a small glimmer of hope though.

 

I've made a minor start this morning, initially re-cleaning all of the electrical connections for the injectors and checking condition / seating / tightness of all intake rubbers. All look fine. I've also checked a couple of existing settings. The TPS is reading slightly high - at idle it's reading 450mv Vs a standard Euro setting of 404mv. However that's not a million miles out - US and Swiss spec are 462 and 521 respectively so it's within the range of possible settings. Also, this reading would be impacted by the throttle stops not being set correctly so I'm not adjusting it yet.

 

Where I'm getting a small glimmer of hope is that I then checked the air bleed settings - these are the adjustments that set the amount of air allowed into the cylinders when the throttles are closed. As there's no MAF or lambdas, the ECU can't compensate if these air bleeds aren't set correctly. They really need to be set with an exhaust gas analyser but there's a standard starting position of one turn out from closed. The right cylinder was set to this but the left cylinder was set to fully in. The adjuster screw is very loose so it could have easily vibrated itself to this position.

 

So I now need to give the bike a try with that air bleed a turn out. I can't do that yet as I have a very tired teenager asleep near the garage and it's very much in my interests to not have a tired teenager!

 

This isn't by any means a dead cert as it's quite possible to compensate for an incorrect air bleed setting using a bit of throttle stop on that cylinder. So the screw could make very little or no difference at all. But even if that's the case, it would support the theory that a reset of all adjustments is a sensible next step.

[Hairsy]

Teenager is up so I've run a few tests.

 

The conclusion is that I do need to proceed with trying to do a full reset of settings.

 

Specifically what I did though:

 

1) First of all I removed most of the fuel before starting. I've been assuming that when the bike won't start after doing work on the fuel system, it's because it can't do the initial prime when there's just air in the pump. I wanted to make sure that it would start OK with minimal fuel in the tank but with the tank previously primed. If it didn't start then I'd get a new pump before proceeding. But it started fine without much fuel. So for now I'm not concerned about the fuel pump.

 

2) I set the left air bleed to one turn out. Sadly, it didn't make any difference. Turning it out more did cause audible 'sucking' as it opened up the port and the idle got worse - so it is doing what it should be doing but there's no discernible difference between 1 turn out and fully closed. There should be. So I suspect the throttle stop on the left cylinder has been set to open the throttle too much at idle.

 

3) The air bleed screw very quickly vibrated its way back in to fully closed because its too loose. I applied a dab of blue loctite to it. Hopefully that will help when it's eventually set correctly.

 

4) There are exhaust gas test ports in both exhaust downpipes. I applied some Plusgas to these and will continue to do so each day over the coming days. Hopefully this will help if I do later manage to borrow an exhaust gas analyser (I have a friend who is a tool seller to the trade and a bike enthusiast so he may be able to help me here)

 

5) Under varied throttle, I sprayed carb / injector cleaner into the throttle bodies to just help with cleaning all the inlets. I didn't expect a difference and didn't get one - but it seemed a good thing to do. Don't forget, I'm getting desperate!

 

6) I once again checked for fault codes after running the bike. This should pick up on any intermittent breaks in the signal from any sensors. There were no faults.

 

7) I also visually monitored all of the sensor readings while the bike warmed to spot anything off. Everything was reading exactly what I'd expect temperatures and pressure were all correct.

 

8] The  bike won't tick over if the fast idle control is set to fully off. So I set it to 1,100 rpm idle and then rechecked the TPS reading. It was reading 503mV at this 1,100 rpm idle, compared to factory spec of 404mV. This once again points to the importance of getting all the base settings reset. 

 

9) Finally, I wanted to get some reassurance about the trim pot that I've been worrying about. This is a physical pot in the ECU and applies an adjustment to the fuel mapping throughout the rev range. My problem has been that when I turn it it doesn't affect the diagnostic readout for CO Trimm. According to limited info online, the diagnostic reading 'should' give a number from -127 to +127. However it's just stuck at 128. My worry was that there was an ECU problem - if someone had previously got hamfisted with that pot and turned it beyond its 270 degree limit then they could well have broken it, in which case the fuelling would never be right. Once the bike was warmed up, I looked at the injector pulse width, which was around 3ms - this is the level I'm expecting (based on information from Superbike Surgery - an excellent and highly recommended YouTube channel). I then tried adjusting the ECU pot and, sure enough, it changed the pulse width. Therefore, the pot is working as intended AND the setting looks to be about right. even though it isn't being reported through the diagnostics. I therefore set the pot back to give me 3ms and plan to stop worrying about this.

 

So, all in all, there's nothing solved but some quite useful information.

 

I now need to do the full reset of TPS, throttle, fast idle, base mixtures, etc. I'll do this when I'm under no pressures to complete the job quickly. It's complicated and one error will mess up everything else.

Edited December 21, 2024 by Hairsy