Advanced riding

[houltmac]

Since my accident I have thought a lot about my riding since I can't actually do any. I have also watched some YouTube videos, got a couple of DVDs and started reading some books to help me improve. Then I started talking to a guy who is a police riding instructor. he's a really nice guy and very eager to help me improve, but a couple of things stood out for me.

1. Right (RoSPA) and wrong (DSA) ways to ride - it seems everything you were taught to allow you to pass your DSA test were wrong. Everything you thought was off it turns out was, and the niggles they kept pulling you for were also unnecessary. If even police instructors believe this to be the case, why don't we all just learn right in the first place and make it part of the test? I guess it's the same thing with tinted visors though eh?

2. There are tons of different courses, tests and so on you can do to get "advanced training" and money off your insurance. While the cash will be nice, my aim is purely to be a better rider. I have been told without doubt RoSPA is the way to go. Anyone here fancy sharing an experience? I guess I'm wondering how long it took people before they did the test, and how they felt it all went. Quote a generalisation I realise but just some examples would be good.

Anyway, I just thought I'd start a conversation around it and see where it all leads. Thoughts appreciated.

[wiggleit]

I'm certainly thinking about it too, tho geographically speaking I don't think the same course would be pactical

But I do want to do an advanced course and get some track experience.

I started this late and feel I have to pack as much in as possible to get the most out of my riding. As well as being a safer rider.

Plus LOVE learning new stuff

So same here.....anybody fancy plans for next year re training?

Any suggestions?

If we got some decent sized groups together could perhaps negotiate some discounts?????

[Guest]

I agree, and I also think the basic DSA driving test should be scrapped in favour of IAM/RoSPA standards too.

But if you think of all the fuss about the recent imposition of a 'harder' test can you imagine how long it would take/cost to get everyone riding to a decent standard?

[Guest]

Lots of stuff available Matt.

Bikesafe for one, would be a good taster for you. Akey has done training with both Rospa and IAM. If I recall correctly, these are volunteer based and can be a bit of a lottery as to how good the groups can be. From the point of view of real world riding at least.

I am assuming you have the links, so won't bother posting them.

I had a day with RiDE magazine earlier this year, was not exactly an eye opener, but I certainly got something out of it. Apart from me photo in the magazine!!!

To be honest it is probably a case of suck it and see! Get yourself onto your local groups and see how you go. If you are not happy with the service/training you receive, try a different group.

I stand to be corrected if my info is wrong. And keep us posted!!

[Guest]

Dans gone mad...

[Guest]

Dans gone mad...

 

Have deleted all the duplicate posts now

[Guest]

i did the IAM scheme with TVAM (Thames Valley Advanced Motorcyclists) and learnt a lot, and ironed out a few born again biker problems.. would recommend it to anyone.

[TC1474]

Being an examiner for RoSPA, I am probably a little bit biased but at the end of the day, and further training is better than none at all, but as with anything, the training is only as good as the instructor you get and it is fair to say that there are some very good IAM and RoSPA instructors and some very poor ones.

RoSPA is the senior of the two recognised advanced training bodies in the UK, the other of course being the IAM. RoSPA started off as the League of Safe drivers and was founded by Louise Duncan in association with the Met Driving School at Hendon, and predates the IAM by about 3 years, but the IAM went down the more commercial route which is why probably they are the better known of the two bodies.

About 7 - 8 years ago, an agreement was made between RoSPA, the IAM, DIAmond advanced and the DSA whereby a new definition of advanced riding and driving was introduced. It is now

Advanced driving is the ability to control the position and speed of the vehicle safely, systematically and smoothly, using road and traffic conditions to make reasonable progress unobtrusively, with skill and responsibility. The skill requires a positive but courteous attitude and a high standard of driving competence based on concentration, effective all round observation, anticipation and flanning. This must be co-ordinated with good handling skills. The vehicle should always be at the right place on the road at the right time, travelling at the right speed with the correct gear engaged and can always be stopped safely in the distance that can be seen to be clear.

It was at the time that this definition was introduced that it was also agreed that the IAM and DIAmond pass would be the equal of the RoSPA bronze grade, whilst the RoSPA gold grade was regarded as being the equal of a Police class 2 qualification. The silver grade is still a good standard but means that there is still some work to be done and is still higher than the IAM pass standard..

That is not to say that IAM riders are rubbish, there are some very good riders out there with nothing more than an IAM pass, but this is where the conflict tends to be found.

Both organisations try to sing from the same hymn sheet, but with the IAM you can have a rider who has really worked hard to attain the highest possible standard and at the other end of the scale the guy who has done just enough to scrape through, but because they both have a pass, they are regarded as being in the same skill category even though they could be poles apart.

Then! As long as they pay their subscriptions every year, then can continue to call themselves an advanced rider even though they may not have taken any further training since they took their test which may have been many years ago.

RoSPA on the other hand has a three yearly retest requirement for its silver and gold grade riders and annualy for bronze grade riders, and to maintain their membership they must submit to the retest where they can increase or decrease their grade. This at least ensures that standards are maintained.

And then following on from that there is the RoSPA diploma (which I was responsible for writing, setting up and running for many years ) which is aimed at instructors who wish to be enterd onto the register of approved instructors, and ensures that not only are riding standards maintained, but instructional ability is in place as well.

The problem with many IAM individuals is that in a lot of cases they believe that the IAM test is the holy grail of the advanced riding and testing procedure, as I found out on more than one occasion.

I recently had a student who is an IAM qualified rider. He was looking to take his RoSPA test and asked me to do a check run just to make sure he was up to scratch as he was sure it would be a formality. He went onto say that having passed the IAM test, surely there was nothing more to learn? and I have to say he was quite arrogant about it which made me wonder why he was looking to take his RoSPA advanced test.

Within 10 minutes I had to stop him and put him straight on a few things which he found difficult to understand, after all he had passed his IAM test hadn't he?

I would have failed him had he been taking his RoSPA test that is how bad he was, but in fairness, once I had explained a few things to him, he was actually very receptive and positive and realised the error of his ways and realised that the learning curve is constant and ongoing..

Unfortunately, much of what he had been taught was down to poor training, and the person who had trained him had passed his test some 20 + years ago and never taken a retest, so it really answered many of the questions that arose, and went to prove that as instructors and examiners we have to constantly check ourselves to maintain standards both of riding ability and knowledge.

By the end of the day I was comfortable that the guy should attain a silver, but he has an awfull long way to go before he will get to gold standard, but I hope that he continues and I wish him well in the future.

The whole point of my ramblings is that the learning never stops, and the day that someone thinks they have learnt all there is to learn, that is the day when the keys should be hung up forever because there is an accident looking for somewhere to happen.

The bottom line is that if you want quality over quantity, then go for the RoSPA test, if you want to get a foot on the first rung of the ladder and you want more of a social side, then the IAM is a good starting point. Both have their virtues.

Despite my 30 + years riding experience. despite all the riding qualifications I have, despite all the money that has been spent on me to attain those qualifications, I learn something new on a very regular basis, and new ideas can be learnt from even the most novice of riders if you are prepared to accept that as advanced riders we are not the sole guardians of everything two wheeled.

Whilst advanced riding is not about learning to ride per se, what it will teach you is how to use some of the skills that are there that you didn't realise you had, enhancing skills that you have maybe started to develop, teaching you techniques that would be totally alien to a DSA examiner or DAS only instructor, undoing some of the rubbish that riders have to be taught to pass their L test and generally introducing them to a different way of riding which maintains a decent bubble of safety without detracting from the fun element.

Anyone who states that they have learnt nothing from doing an advanced course is IMO either a liar or someone who should not be on the road. We can all learn (and I mean all of us) and we should all attempt to ride to the highest standard that we can.

I have always said that learning to ride to an advanced standard will not prevent you being involved in an accident, but what it will do in the majority of cases is prevent you being involved in an accident that is YOUR FAULT. That could mean all the difference to your family in the long term.

The bottom line is that any training in whatever walk of life is only as good as the instructor provides, and in that respect you will get good and bad everywhere. With an advanced instructor though, it could literally be the difference between life and death. And before anyone goes on about Bikesafe, I will say that there issues as far as this is concerned, but again this is a topic for another day.

Sorry for the rambling

[houltmac]

Don't be sorry TC, I enjoyed your rambling. It was exactly what I was looking for.

I would like to have the social side of biking, but I can do that through forums like this and not through advanced training. As you say, I'd prefer quality. You have me convinced for sure, now when are you free?

[wiggleit]

Don't be sorry TC, I enjoyed your rambling. It was exactly what I was looking for.

I would like to have the social side of biking, but I can do that through forums like this and not through advanced training. As you say, I'd prefer quality. You have me convinced for sure, now when are you free?

 

Yeah ....me too...

Name yer date

[Guest]

Ahh, I was wondering how it stayed current, the nearest IAM to me is now the MBEAM (Morecambe bay and estuarys..), will see if theres a ROSPA nearer,...

[TC1474]

Local RoSPA groups can be found here

http://www.roadar.org.uk/groups/index.htm

Local IAM groups here

http://www.iam.org.uk/iamgroupsdirectory/

Unfortunately, I don't do much 1 - 1 or private tuition anymore, I simply don't have the time, but I can certainly put you in touch with someone in your area if you would rather have personal tuition (which will cost) rather than going through a group which is cheaper.

[wiggleit]

Local RoSPA groups can be found here

http://www.roadar.org.uk/groups/index.htm

Local IAM groups here

http://www.iam.org.uk/iamgroupsdirectory/

Unfortunately, I don't do much 1 - 1 or private tuition anymore, I simply don't have the time, but I can certainly put you in touch with someone in your area if you would rather have personal tuition (which will cost) rather than going through a group which is cheaper.

Thanks Tc - Checked out local roadar groups n Cumbria & Region are listed as 'currently inactive'...typical!

Any suggestions?

Perhaps a local (N Cumbria) contact for paid 1-to-1?

Cheers

[Guest]

Local RoSPA groups can be found here

http://www.roadar.org.uk/groups/index.htm

Local IAM groups here

http://www.iam.org.uk/iamgroupsdirectory/

Unfortunately, I don't do much 1 - 1 or private tuition anymore, I simply don't have the time, but I can certainly put you in touch with someone in your area if you would rather have personal tuition (which will cost) rather than going through a group which is cheaper.

Thanks Tc - Checked out local roadar groups n Cumbria & Region are listed as 'currently inactive'...typical!

Any suggestions?

Perhaps a local (N Cumbria) contact for paid 1-to-1?

Cheers

did you come across this one..

http://www.roadar.org/groups/northwest/cumbria.htm

or this

http://www.edenproridertraining.co.uk/

[wiggleit]

Local RoSPA groups can be found here

http://www.roadar.org.uk/groups/index.htm

Local IAM groups here

http://www.iam.org.uk/iamgroupsdirectory/

Unfortunately, I don't do much 1 - 1 or private tuition anymore, I simply don't have the time, but I can certainly put you in touch with someone in your area if you would rather have personal tuition (which will cost) rather than going through a group which is cheaper.

Thanks Tc - Checked out local roadar groups n Cumbria & Region are listed as 'currently inactive'...typical!

Any suggestions?

Perhaps a local (N Cumbria) contact for paid 1-to-1?

Cheers

did you come across this one..

http://www.roadar.org/groups/northwest/cumbria.htm

or this

http://www.edenproridertraining.co.uk/

Cheers Simon - any experience of Eden?

[Guest]

Cheers Simon - any experience of Eden?

 

Nope, but was looking for same thing..

[wiggleit]

Cheers Simon - any experience of Eden?

 

Nope, but was looking for same thing..

 

Why ....you thinking of doing a day?

[Guest]

Cheers Simon - any experience of Eden?

Nope, but was looking for same thing..

Why ....you thinking of doing a day?

might be....

[booboy]

just sent e mail to derby one if anyone is interested let me know[rospa] they hopefully be contacting me with more details.

[glamdring]

I've done IAM and Bikesafe and an independant course.

IAM and Bikesafe are, imo, good for basic positioning and observational skills. I don't agree with a lot of their 'mentatility' (my local IAM guys never ever speed, for example - not even a little bit). However it's worth doing even Bikesafe to get a good understanding of the above points.

I did a course with these guys up in York this spring and it was very good - highly recommended.

http://www.i2imca.com/

[wiggleit]

Why ....you thinking of doing a day?

might be....

Well I plan to do something this 'coming sunny day' so keep me posted n I'll do likewise

[Guest]

I've done IAM and Bikesafe and an independant course.

IAM and Bikesafe are, imo, good for basic positioning and observational skills. I don't agree with a lot of their 'mentatility' (my local IAM guys never ever speed, for example - not even a little bit). However it's worth doing even Bikesafe to get a good understanding of the above points.

I did a course with these guys up in York this spring and it was very good - highly recommended.

ditto, the above, my instructor/s weren't the type to speed unessesarily, but i was faster through better observation and planning, and how did they put it.... Making progress, i.e on a 50mph winding road, why sit behind a car thats changing from 40-50, when a safe overtake means you can maintain the speed limit thats appropriate with full vision without hinderance from the car in front,

love that term.... making progress,

hate it when out with a bunch riding and the lead fails to make progress, and holds the group up..... (and if i'm leading, well, they all overtake me anyway and wait in the laybys...)

[TC1474]

IAM and Bikesafe are, imo, good for basic positioning and observational skills. I don't agree with a lot of their 'mentatility' (my local IAM guys never ever speed, for example - not even a little bit).

 

Unlike a few years ago when we used to allow "Latitude " in terms of exceeding the speed limit, these days groups have to tow the official line and are not allowed to openly encourage any excess speed.

However, turn it on its head and what are you going to learn when under instruction and everyone is racing around with a three digit number on their speedo?

Certainly in the early stages, the speed needs to be kept lower so that the student/candidate can develop confidence in their positioning, observation skills, general roadcraft and the instructor needs to understand and assess the ability of their students and this cannot be done at silly speeds as apart from anything else it leaves the instructor open to all sorts of litigation problems if it goes pear shaped.

But, advanced riding is not all about speed. The majority of riders who have undertaken training often find that although their speed drops in terms of actual miles per hour, they cover the ground more quickly because they are making better use of the road, they are planning everything earlier and so they actually cover the ground quicker than they did previously but with a much greater bubble of safety around them without reducing the fun factor, if anything the fun is enhanced.

[glamdring]

you've totally misinterpreted what i said.

I did not say that everyone should, as you put it, "race round with a three digit number on their speedo". Nor did I suggest that advanced riding was all about speed, because it rarely is. It is about concentration, ability and confidence.

What I suggested was that any organisation who expects anyone of a decent standard not to speed slightly from time to time is being wholly unrealistic in their expectations. Even the police speed. I know several bike cops and they all break the speed limit from time to time if it's required to. I have been on rideouts with coppers and followed them down B roads at 85-90mph and it is not unsafe in the right conditions, and to teach that you shouldn't speed at all, ever, is absurd and short sighted.

Speed has been a saviour to me in the past, and so I suggest that these 'groups' who tow the official line are as blinkered as the rest of this daft government, and should open their eyes to a bit of 'latitude' again - because if I'm following some idiot who refuses to exceed 60mph when overtaking a 20-ton lorry on a twisty B-road, then I'm going to wind open the taps and leave him to get hit by the next lunatic car driver who comes round the approaching bend, and to hell with what the law says about it.

[TC1474]

you've totally misinterpreted what i said.

I did not say that everyone should, as you put it, "race round with a three digit number on their speedo". Nor did I suggest that advanced riding was all about speed, because it rarely is. It is about concentration, ability and confidence.

What I suggested was that any organisation who expects anyone of a decent standard not to speed slightly from time to time is being wholly unrealistic in their expectations. Even the police speed. I know several bike cops and they all break the speed limit from time to time if it's required to. I have been on rideouts with coppers and followed them down B roads at 85-90mph and it is not unsafe in the right conditions, and to teach that you shouldn't speed at all, ever, is absurd and short sighted.

Speed has been a saviour to me in the past, and so I suggest that these 'groups' who tow the official line are as blinkered as the rest of this daft government, and should open their eyes to a bit of 'latitude' again - because if I'm following some idiot who refuses to exceed 60mph when overtaking a 20-ton lorry on a twisty B-road, then I'm going to wind open the taps and leave him to get hit by the next lunatic car driver who comes round the approaching bend, and to hell with what the law says about it.

 

I hear what you are saying, and by and large I agree with what you are saying, what I was trying to do (albeit badly ) was try to explain why so many groups and instructors are so rigid in their attitude towards speed, but there are two sides of the argument, both of which have (arguably) some merit.