Failed CBT because of a U-Turn???

[areyoudizzy]

Hi all, 

I apparently failed my CBT because of my U-Turning ability in a tight road. 

 

The group was big and full of people who had done it before - I was acing the driving, one bloke would leave his indicator on the whole time and failed to turn it off. 

Is this common? 

 

Thanks

 

 

[Tigs]

That doesn't sound right to me.  You do not need to be perfect on a CBT.. 
 

How many times did you try to U turn? (I passed my CBT - twice and still find them tricky)

 

Gov website says: There's a maximum number of: 4 learners per trainer for on-site parts. 2 learners per trainer for on-road parts.

So if you were in a larger group I would complain to the company and ask for a 'retake' 

 

As for indicators - I was pulled every time I left mine on but another rider was not. I'm not 100% sure why.. it could be that I was passing roads where my indicators might be confusing - and he was not - but I didn't feel that way ( I thought the instructor was down on girls.. various things that were said made me feel this way..)

 

[Bender]

5 hours ago, areyoudizzy said:

Hi all, 

I apparently failed my CBT because of my U-Turning ability in a tight road. 

 

The group was big and full of people who had done it before - I was acing the driving, one bloke would leave his indicator on the whole time and failed to turn it off. 

Is this common? 

 

Thanks

 

 

I sucked at u turn also  

 

Are you re booked or booking at another place? 

 

Ohh and welcome o

[mikeincumbria]

On 29/10/2022 at 22:34, Tigs said:

 ( I thought the instructor was down on girls.. various things that were said made me feel this way..)

 

Hi tigs, I'm a new m/c instructor and would be grateful if you would elaborate on "the various things that were said" that made you feel like your instructor had a downer on you.  While i may not be able to help you directly perhaps your experience could help others to avoid doing this?

[Tigs]

It was a while ago now - and possibly not actual words - more a 'feeling' - (I'm dyslexic so often 'read micro body language' rather than hear the words).  It was really obvious in his tone that he did not rate me - picking on road position or indicators - when he let it slide with the other rider .. He was critical of me not being sure about filtering  - I'd not been on a bike for 20 years - and it was super busy and it was at the end of a long day - I was tired - 

The first instructor just made me feel like an idiot - He didn't seem to grasp that it might be physically demanding - by the end I was struggling to pull the clutch in - my hands just lacked the strength of driving without stopping for a  whole day.. The men who had never used geared bikes were encouraged to go for a full access course whereas I was told to practice and think about a scooter  instead - it was quite dismissive.  At the end he told me at the end of my training 'i will pass you if you promise to go out with your fella' ... which made me lack confidence. I can't imagine he'd have said the same to a man - TBH I would have done better if he had said 'you need more practice come back for another session

 

 

I retook my CBT at a different school and I really enjoyed it - the guy could see I was in my head about stuff - but just kept encouraging me - and made me feel like I could do this - He made me feel like I had skills and was capable. 

 

For my Mod 1 - even though I asked for 'slow and steady' lessons - I could not find a school that would oblige that as a result I did a course and then failed Mod 1 - I'm not a 'fast learner' - and would have done better to have gone out regularly rather than to learn it all in a few days - Full days are a bit too much _ I stop doing my best and can't take much on board.  I think a lot of women are more cautious and need a different style of teaching - in my area 40% pass mod1 - as opposed to 70% of men , this has to have a connection with the training offered around here (I just don't believe the men are 'better drivers' - just they learn in a different way)

In my case I over think so need to hear all the 'outcomes  before committing - I also need 'short instructions' - so for the break it is SQ... eeze - (slight move of the hand then pull in slow' ..  My second school were ace at seeing how I learnt in a different way and went the extra mile to support me.   They went through breaking in lots of different ways - (so just clutch in - just back break - just front break - ect.. )it has made me far more confident).  That said I learnt a huge amount in the few days I went out with them - but not enough to 'internalise' the u turn - I wobble and end up putting my foot down. 

 

The instructor told me to go away and practice and come back when I had mastered it - so that is what I am doing. The rubbish weather is a bit meh - I really want to be on a bigger bike - but I will get there. 

 

If you want to appeal to women - offer a 'flexible' approach - don't start too early in the morning (that might just be  me - but round here all the starts are 7.45/8am - and to get there and be on it at that time is awful!)  Talk through the 'this is why' rather than - 'just do this' - (women will over think.. ) Regular breaks - and listen to what they ask for! 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Tigs

[Tinkicker]

15 hours ago, Tigs said:

It was a while ago now - and possibly not actual words - more a 'feeling' - (I'm dyslexic so often 'read micro body language' rather than hear the words).  It was really obvious in his tone that he did not rate me - picking on road position or indicators - when he let it slide with the other rider .. He was critical of me not being sure about filtering  - I'd not been on a bike for 20 years - and it was super busy and it was at the end of a long day - I was tired - 

The first instructor just made me feel like an idiot - He didn't seem to grasp that it might be physically demanding - by the end I was struggling to pull the clutch in - my hands just lacked the strength of driving without stopping for a  whole day.. The men who had never used geared bikes were encouraged to go for a full access course whereas I was told to practice and think about a scooter  instead - it was quite dismissive.  At the end he told me at the end of my training 'i will pass you if you promise to go out with your fella' ... which made me lack confidence. I can't imagine he'd have said the same to a man - TBH I would have done better if he had said 'you need more practice come back for another session

 

 

I retook my CBT at a different school and I really enjoyed it - the guy could see I was in my head about stuff - but just kept encouraging me - and made me feel like I could do this - He made me feel like I had skills and was capable. 

 

For my Mod 1 - even though I asked for 'slow and steady' lessons - I could not find a school that would oblige that as a result I did a course and then failed Mod 1 - I'm not a 'fast learner' - and would have done better to have gone out regularly rather than to learn it all in a few days - Full days are a bit too much _ I stop doing my best and can't take much on board.  I think a lot of women are more cautious and need a different style of teaching - in my area 40% pass mod1 - as opposed to 70% of men , this has to have a connection with the training offered around here (I just don't believe the men are 'better drivers' - just they learn in a different way)

In my case I over think so need to hear all the 'outcomes  before committing - I also need 'short instructions' - so for the break it is SQ... eeze - (slight move of the hand then pull in slow' ..  My second school were ace at seeing how I learnt in a different way and went the extra mile to support me.   They went through breaking in lots of different ways - (so just clutch in - just back break - just front break - ect.. )it has made me far more confident).  That said I learnt a huge amount in the few days I went out with them - but not enough to 'internalise' the u turn - I wobble and end up putting my foot down. 

 

The instructor told me to go away and practice and come back when I had mastered it - so that is what I am doing. The rubbish weather is a bit meh - I really want to be on a bigger bike - but I will get there. 

 

If you want to appeal to women - offer a 'flexible' approach - don't start too early in the morning (that might just be  me - but round here all the starts are 7.45/8am - and to get there and be on it at that time is awful!)  Talk through the 'this is why' rather than - 'just do this' - (women will over think.. ) Regular breaks - and listen to what they ask for! 

 

 

Tigs.  You found out that all you needed was to change your school or instructor. 

In a previous life, I was senior technician/ workshop manager and operations manager for a very large motorcycle activity and training center.  In fact, at the time the largest in europe.

One of the many hats I wore was that of "standby instructor" on call for unforseen crises.  One of our more senior instructors seemed to have a bit of a problem with females riding bikes and had problems in progressing them through the CBT.

As a result, I would often be called to the training square at very short notice to take over on a one to one basis and I probably progressed more females through their CBTs than most of the other instructors.

 

They were all pretty much the same.  In the main, the vast majority at that time were taking the CBT to please boyfriends or husbands, very nervous and unsure of themselves, frightened at the prospect of getting hurt and looked like frightened rabbits caught in car headlights.  Eyes like saucers.

If this was not enough, they encountered an instructor who was not the most patient with ladies and the results were predictable.  The state I found them in, I doubt they could have made a cup of coffee without scalding themselves.

 

All it took was some empathy, some encouraging words and to start back at the beginning.  Once they relaxed, they were fine.

 

In the end it was suggested that we downtrain a female staff member to conduct CBTs with all female groups and female enquiries were given this option, along with one to one.  Of course, one to one was more expensive.

 

An instructor/ student relationship is a two way street.  If it is not a good fit, it needs to end.  The impatient with the ladies instructor was a very good instructor and knew his limitations.  Sometimes he could gel with a female student, and sometimes not.  If not, he was introspective enough to saunter down to the workshop and ask my help.

Cannot knock him for that.

 

 

 

[Tigs]

I am sure I was wary - I'm not great at 'doing as i'm told' .. I watch and learn and don't give a hoot if someone comes and moves me into the right position (Men are wary of doing that to a lady - I can see why - but its how I learn - even giving my permission they were wary) .. but I just need to 'master the u turn' - I don't twist my body enough - and whilst I know that is why it's going to fail I wobble about a bit and rescue myself by putting my foot down 

 

I did wonder what the outcome for the opening poster was -they never did come back!

 

 

[Shepherd]

I hated u-turns, until I was told to go a little more on the throttle with back brake lightly applied. The difference was night and day.

Try it, even just a couple of times - it can't hurt.

[Tinkicker]

13 hours ago, Tigs said:

I am sure I was wary - I'm not great at 'doing as i'm told' .. I watch and learn and don't give a hoot if someone comes and moves me into the right position (Men are wary of doing that to a lady - I can see why - but its how I learn - even giving my permission they were wary) .. but I just need to 'master the u turn' - I don't twist my body enough - and whilst I know that is why it's going to fail I wobble about a bit and rescue myself by putting my foot down 

 

I did wonder what the outcome for the opening poster was -they never did come back!

 

 

 

 

Sorry, but what the hell are they teaching you?  Are they actually grabbing you?  All it takes is to visualise a series of points on the ground, approach one and just before you get there, switch your attention to the next.

 

Edit.  Re reading all the posts, I see you completed your cbt in the end.  However an instructor should never manhandle a student.  You guide, you encourage, you try different ways to complete the task.  You give the student as much time as they need and if they are getting jaded, you move onto something else or revisit a previous task and modify it to help their sticking point and confidence.

 

It is never a case of "do it my way, or nothing". You let them do it how they feel is best for them.  Personally, I always hated the whole use the engine crankshaft as a gyroscope offical line on u turns. It was a tool in my box of tricks among many others.

I preferred to give the student time to develop muscle memory, not rely on mechanical means.

 

Of course, it is over 15 years since I handed in my instructor ticket, so things may have changed and the dvsa may well now place more emphasis on the technique, rather than just completing the task safely in whatever manner you chose.

 

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Tinkicker

[Bender]

7 hours ago, Tinkicker said:

 

 

Sorry, but what the hell are they teaching you?  Are they actually grabbing you?  All it takes is to visualise a series of points on the ground, approach one and just before you get there, switch your attention to the next.

 

You really, really need to change schools.

 

It's easy to describe how to do a u turn, its easy to do them when you know how and you have the skill set to do it, for some it's barely a thought, others struggle though and it's only practice that gets you past that. 

 

Guess how I know  

[Tinkicker]

Yes you got in just before i finished editing my post.  I hate doing full lock u turns.  As an ex trials rider and instructor, I only feel comfortable when stood on the pegs.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Tinkicker

[mikeincumbria]

On 06/01/2023 at 23:10, Tigs said:

It was a while ago now - and possibly not actual words - more a 'feeling' -

 

 

Hi Tigs,

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to share your story more fully and there are lots of things in it to unpack!!  Also a big thank you to Tinkicker for some great input; it sounds like he is a loss to the training community.

 

I recently trained a lady, during my down-training phase, who was tiny, the loveliest person you could hope to meet but 5'3" and slight of build.  She would tire quickly and would mentally tire too, which she attributed to being in her late 50's and never having ridden even a bicycle before.  She safely completed her CBT over 5 sessions of about 3 hours each, 1-2-1 with me including her road ride (although i was obviously accompanied by our qualified instructor).  While he was not happy that it was taking so long, he only charged her for 1 extra lesson; but i guess that because he didn't pay me while i was down-training this softened the blow to his picket!  But even though i have been a scuba diving instructor and worked extensively with people who have physical disability as well as people of all sexes and sizes, i was surprised at how quickly that student would tire.  It was a valuable lesson for me.

 

I'm delighted that you found better instruction and can categorically state that the DVSA is currently very focused on training standards and is actively shutting schools down (at a rate of almost 1 per week nationwide) and removing training licenses from many instructors who are not delivering safe training.

 

Once again really appreciate your response.

[mikeincumbria]

Oh and BTW, just following up on the "touching students point" i am not even allowed to help/hold students clothing or helmets!!! The head instructor (the only other instructor) has made it clear that he will not tolerate any contact whatsoever.

 

I got pulled on the training area one day for patting a guy on the shoulder to congratulate him on breaking through the u-turn exercise which he had really struggled with.  Head instructor was angry and using terms like assault etc!

 

Only thing i can find from published DVSA materials is that one shouldn't ever need to touch a student and that you must respect and observe their personal space.

[Tigs]

11 hours ago, Tinkicker said:

 

 

Sorry, but what the hell are they teaching you?  Are they actually grabbing you?  All it takes is to visualise a series of points on the ground, approach one and just before you get there, switch your attention to the next.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure I explained myself well - with the break for example I was really grabby - fine on my 125 - lethal on the 650 with dual front breaks!! 

The instructor was trying to explain how to do it - lots of words- I just couldn't get it - I asked him to 'show me' - hand over hand' - ( I work with SEN students and we often use this approach to teach muscle memory tasks) .. he showed me once - and used the term SQU...eeze - described it as picking up a lemon - and then squeezing a lemon - one 'hand over hand' - demo and it's stuck - no 'words' would ever have done it for me 

 

Another example was him telling me my shoulder was tense  -and arm position was wrong - 'blah blah blah' - After me asking him to move me to the right position - I instantly got it - 

 

The instructor was not 'grabbing me' - but - for me - I learnt the muscle positions quicker by being in them than any words would have told me!  I hope that makes sense 

 

As for 'no touch' .. my instructor gave me a hug when I passed my CBT - and the other one at the same school gave me a hug when I failed my Mod 1- In both situations I was grateful for it. As I said though - I'm ok with physical touch. 

 

As for the blasted u - I will keep going - I don't 'twist at the waist' enough so my head looks where it should but my body does not follow - I also think I don't use enough throttle - or ease it on and off rather than using clutch and back break - I am getting better at them - unfortunately I often struggle with the first but nail the second and in a test - need to do it first time!! I'll get there though.  

[Grumpy Old Git]

On 29/10/2022 at 22:49, Bender said:

I sucked at u turn also  

 

Are you re booked or booking at another place? 

 

Ohh and welcome o

Try doing a u-turn on a Rocket III - Usually only possible if dipping into a side road first!

NB. The Harley is much easier