CBT Fail

[Guest]

Hi all. Just a bit of advice really. I paid for my dad to take his CBT for his birthday which he took today. I went round to his house around 5 this evening and he told me that he'd failed! I couldn't quiet believe it. I asked him what he had failed for and he said that it was because he'd treated a stop sign at a junction like a give way. Surely this wouldn't count as a failure? I mean he's 61 and has been driving for more than 40 years so it's not as if he hasn't got the road sense (normally). He said had no other problems during any other part of the day and wasn't told he couldn't handle the bike.

So I was just wondering if this seems right or is it just that the company aren't doing as many tests etc and are just trying to make more money as they've said it's going to cost him another £50 to do just the road training again. Advice please...

[Ash]

If he stopped and gave way at the road sign I don't see what the problem is, as far as I'm aware most places you just pay the one fee, and then you do it till you pass, even of you have to come back another day, they shouldn't be charging him again

[Guest]

Sounds like a poor excuse to have more cash off you. When I did my CBT I failed (or should I say was not upto the required standard as it is not pass or fail) and he invited me back for another morning at no extra cost and I completed it to a standard where the certificate was justifiable.

[satnavsatnav]

That does seem harsh. If he put his foot down and stopped even for 1 sec he obeyed the sign. Sounds like the company just wants more cash. I thought a cbt was just training as that's what it stands for. I didn't realize you could fail unless you did something really stupid or continually messed up. Can he not appeal?

[Guest]

Thanks for your replies. I've asked him if he'll appeal but i'm not sure if he will as we weren't really sure of what was normal, hence the post. I may go and see them myself as the shop where its run from is owned by a fellow prison officer and he may cut him some slack I just think there a sneaky bunch of swines out for the money and I'm the one feeling guilty for booking it for him. At least it's knocked his confidence enough to stop him thinking about buying a CBF1000 for his first bike!!!!! Silly arse. I think a Honda Varadero 125 is more appropriate

[Mightycaz]

I was always told at a stop sign you had to stop and put your don't down, a give way means just that! I think he would have failed his mod 2 for that in all honesty. its a bit gash making himpay for a whole new session!

[tryme]

I havent done a bike test but i have been driving a car for 3 years now. I thought at a stop sign you were to stop and not proceed until it was clear? On abike does that mean you stop put your foot down, wait til its clear then carry on?

[2fast2soon]

If you don't stop at a stop sign then the police (if they caught you doing it) would give you points, so I think its probably right they failed him.

I am surprised by the number of firms charging more for extra cbt training. I was under the impression it was a one off fee but there was someone else who mentioned being charged again in another thread so I guess its luck of the draw as to which training school you go with.

[tryme]

I'm confused I swear you said he failed FOR stopping at a stop sign?

[TC]

The clue is in the name of the sign, the shape of the sign and the solid white line at the junction.

STOP means just that. It is a Stop and give way junction for a reason.

Caz your spot on mate i was told stop and put your foot down

Edited August 1, 2010 by TC

[cypek]

If you don't stop at a stop sign then the police (if they caught you doing it) would give you points, so I think its probably right they failed him.

I agree with that. Not stopping at STOP sign is quite bad, at least thats what I have been taught. But on the other hand if that was his only issue then instructor could just pull over and have a chat with your dad about it and then continue the training

I'm confused I swear you said he failed FOR stopping at a stop sign?

I had to read it a few times as well lol

[tryme]

i'm still lost you said he treated it like a give way sign, which is what your meant to do? lol or am I missing the point?

[polecat]

Hi all. Just a bit of advice really. I paid for my dad to take his CBT for his birthday which he took today. I went round to his house around 5 this evening and he told me that he'd failed! I couldn't quiet believe it. I asked him what he had failed for and he said that it was because he'd treated a stop sign at a junction like a give way. Surely this wouldn't count as a failure? I mean he's 61 and has been driving for more than 40 years so it's not as if he hasn't got the road sense (normally). He said had no other problems during any other part of the day and wasn't told he couldn't handle the bike.

So I was just wondering if this seems right or is it just that the company aren't doing as many tests etc and are just trying to make more money as they've said it's going to cost him another £50 to do just the road training again. Advice please...

Treating a stop sign as a give way is dangerous and as said would get you points .

CBT will not give a certificate to someone who they condider dangerous on the road so I dont see the issue here ?

[PhatDad]

i'm still lost you said he treated it like a give way sign, which is what your meant to do? lol or am I missing the point?

 

A give way sign means that you can approach the junction and if there are no obstacles/hazards you can keep going and pull out. A stop means that it's a dangerous junction, possibly with hidden or fast hazards and for this reason you have to stop fully and check properly before continuing. I have one on the exit of my university because a downhill cycle lane cuts across the pavement so I stop and make sure BOTH feet go down before proceeding even if it looks clear.

[tryme]

I see. I usually stop in my car at junctions with give way just to make sure. I don't like it when people stay in second put the clutch down roll out and keep going I think it's quite dangerous.

[PhatDad]

I see. I usually stop in my car at junctions with give way just to make sure. I don't like it when people stay in second put the clutch down roll out and keep going I think it's quite dangerous.

 

Yeah, not as dangerous as at a STop junction though.

[tryme]

I agree. Also I mean on a blind junction or one where you cant see full on both sides. A junction is where to roads meet, like pulling out a road to turn left or right. Anyone who goes up to a junction doesnt slow down fully and just pulls out will be in for a shock when they dont slow down efficiently and a biker goes through their window and they end up killing the poor sod.

Obviously there are exceptions when you can see fully you can slow down but not stop and just creep out.

[NearOn]

Hi all. Just a bit of advice really. I paid for my dad to take his CBT for his birthday which he took today. I went round to his house around 5 this evening and he told me that he'd failed! I couldn't quiet believe it. I asked him what he had failed for and he said that it was because he'd treated a stop sign at a junction like a give way. Surely this wouldn't count as a failure? I mean he's 61 and has been driving for more than 40 years so it's not as if he hasn't got the road sense (normally). He said had no other problems during any other part of the day and wasn't told he couldn't handle the bike.

So I was just wondering if this seems right or is it just that the company aren't doing as many tests etc and are just trying to make more money as they've said it's going to cost him another £50 to do just the road training again. Advice please...

Treating a stop sign as a give way is dangerous and as said would get you points .

CBT will not give a certificate to someone who they condider dangerous on the road so I dont see the issue here ?

 

But if the person has shown after that and throughout that he can ride a motorbike in a safe manner etc, then the certificate is awarded. CBT is not about passing or failing, its about getting the overall riding skill up to road standard. So technically you should not be failed on one thing.

If you achknowledge a mistake was made and then show you are a capable rider, then you are entitled to a CBT certificate. Its pointless discussing whether he was wrong about the STOP sign etc. I made numerous mistakes on my CBT and was dreadful at times, but by the end of the day I was up to CBT standard. And they rightly did not fail me for mistakes, if they felt I wasnt ready I would of had to go back for more training at no extra cost.

This def sounds like a case of a greedy company trying to make more money.

[polecat]

There is a diference between Making mistakes and breaking the law ?

Failing to stop at a stop sign is no diferent to going through a red traffic light and had you been coming along that Road when the Rider failed to stop and he had Hit you of caused you to skid to avoid him, would you have been pleased to know he got a CBT certificate having Done so ? I think not considering all the threads we see about this very situation

[NearOn]

My point was that the CBT is not a test, it is training. Fair enough if did not stop, then on say MOD 2 it would be a fail.

With CBTs, majority of people have no or very little experience with bikes, so whilst they are learning, things like this do happen due to nerves and such like, or bad habbits from driving a car etc. They should of just advised him of the mistake he had made, and advised further training is needed, but free of charge. I did my CBT with 3 different schools over a period of 6 years before I did my test and all of them emphasised you can not fail a CBT.

Like others have said more and more schools are charging for extra training and they are not advertising this from the start.

[Guest]

I know the bike shop you mean now, and where I work he is highly reccomended, he has trained lots of prison officers and no one has said a bad word about him.

[BigShot]

I'm looking into doing my CBT soon and the school I've spoken to said it's a 1-off fee for the CBT, if you need to come back again they charge for rental of the bike.

I'm inclined to agree with those who say it's training and not a test. Absolutely, he should have been pulled up about the stop sign but for that one thing alone to mean paying for the CBT again sounds like a racket. Can you imagine taking a lesson (bike or car) and on making the same mistake having your instructor "fail" you on the lesson and say you have to pay for and do an extra lesson as a result? Madness.

My view?

I'd consider the cost of having the "failed" CBT a very good investment... I'd chalk it up as a lesson learned and find another school. I'd be very wary of learning from someone so quick to say "sorry, no, gotta pay again mate". By all means don't give a certificate to someone who doesn't meet the standard, but if everything else was fine I think that's a bit much.

That's just me though.

[Ingah]

My point was that the CBT is not a test, it is training. Fair enough if did not stop, then on say MOD 2 it would be a fail.

With CBTs, majority of people have no or very little experience with bikes, so whilst they are learning, things like this do happen due to nerves and such like, or bad habbits from driving a car etc. They should of just advised him of the mistake he had made, and advised further training is needed, but free of charge. I did my CBT with 3 different schools over a period of 6 years before I did my test and all of them emphasised you can not fail a CBT.

Like others have said more and more schools are charging for extra training and they are not advertising this from the start.

 

+1.

Basically, the CBT is insufficient ("not fit for purpose"). In my opinion. People seem to assume that you are given your certificate for being a safe and competant rider. This is not the case (it is more the case for MOD 2, to get the full license - rather than the CBT's entitlement to learn independently). How could it be the case that a new road user is fully competant and safe after a mere few hours of riding on 2 wheels?! Honestly, the question (i've been told) the instructors ask themselves is: "if i let this person ride home right now, would they kill themselves on the way". I have a suspicion (no evidence to back it up, but a suspicion nonetheless) that it is these underqualified L-platers that are a significant cause of the motorcycle death statistics looking bad. So every time they make the full test harder and less attractive an option, i feel a strong urge to facepalm, as they are probably making the real problem worse!

Hence if the stop sign was the only real fault, then i'm absolutely amazed on the way the school has decided to play it (or at least, i would be, if i didn't expect this crap from firms these days). £50 is (again, in my opinion) excessive for coming back for a mere 2 hours (£25 an hour, not bad eh - especially if you compare to the 6/7 hours of training for usually £100 for the day, so what; £15-£17 an hour normally ). Don't get me wrong, the hourly rate for CBTs is actually quite low and possibly a large part of why motorcycle instructors are underpaid (and apparently the certificate itself costs the firm up to £30 ), but the "come back for a few of hours, pay £50" looks like a very good earner in comparison, and makes me suspicious of the firm's motives (namely, how far they're putting profit ahead of the customer). In contrast, i was charged "just" £20 (and still not 100% happy about even that, despite the fact i needed it, because schools fail to make clear that this charge is quite likely to be payable before it's too late to back out - i.e. at the end of your CBT which they won't sign you off for!).

On my CBT, i fell off the CG125 within 5 minutes and broke the indicators etc (so instructor comes back with scooter), found the maneuvers hard and took me a while (even on this mere automatic), then kept making mistakes, the worst of which was that i kept riding down the wrong side of the road whenever i turned right, i struggled to control the bike, and was generally a liability. I was trying my hardest and taking it seriously (but had never been on the roads before, so i was bad, and i understood that). The instructor said i had to come back for another 2 hours on the roads, and as i said, an extra £20. Compare that with the situation we have here and it doesn't make the OP's firm look good. I wouldn't want to learn with them, let's put it like that.

Personally, i think the way that training schools hide the possible additional costs to be rather unsavoury. I appreciate it's a tough industry, but i find it hard to accept what i view as dishonesty, even so.

[Sean1986]

they should'nt be able to charge again when i done me cbt last year, they said if they did'nt think that any of us was upto it they would ask us back the next day free for a little more training. fair does if the person who is taking the course was absolutley terrible but not just for odd thing here and there.

[caretaker]

If you don't stop at a stop sign then the police (if they caught you doing it) would give you points, so I think its probably right they failed him.

I am surprised by the number of firms charging more for extra cbt training. I was under the impression it was a one off fee but there was someone else who mentioned being charged again in another thread so I guess its luck of the draw as to which training school you go with.

 

I thought the cbt was a training course not a test........ and being given training until the reqiured standard is reached. What companies charge is up to them and in reality varies according to each rider and particular school I imagine. A non issue of certificate means they just want you to have more training and pay more money.

I know everyone has to go out for a 2hr ride but that is also part of the training surely.

The theory (ie higway road signs) can be taken after the cbt anyway and before the mod 1