clutchless shifting, any thoughts?

[illvibetip]

are there any advantages?

any tips to do it more seemlessly/better?

Is there much difference between shifting up and down (in terms of wear?).

Im new to all this and have no intention of making a habit of it, I just want to know what my possibilities are and what people think, as the jury seems to be out on this subject.

[fullscreenaging]

Clutchless shifting makes life much easier IMO.

After moving off I use the clutch to get to second if it's a normal sedate move off, but if it's spirited then no clutch. No clutch for the rest of the gears going up.

Make sure you have pressure on the gear level before you want to change then roll off the throttle slightly, wait for the gear to go in, then back on the throttle. Should only take a couple of seconds.

Much quicker and saves you using your left hand all the time, which can become a bind.

I ALWAYS use the clutch to come down the gear box. You can manage without the clutch but you have to be so precise it's not worth it.

If you get it wrong and change too early you can easily lock the back wheel up.

Use the clutch to get a smooth seamless change and use engine braking to full effect.

Hope this helps.

Edited August 15, 2010 by fullscreenaging

[dex]

Pretty much what he said ^

The easiest way to learn it is to accelerate fairly smoothly in a gear, apply *light* upward pressure on the gear lever then roll off and on the throttle quickly - just off the throttle enough that you stop accelerating but not enough to start engine braking. If you've done it right then the gear lever will feel like it moves of it's own accord and you'll be in the next gear.

Start with very gentle pressure on the lever - as you can damage the box by trying to "force" it in if you're too rough.

If you find the gearchange is a very jerky affair then you're probably rolling off the throttle too much, getting engine braking and then the acceleration.

If you are needing a lot of force on the gear lever then you're not rolling off the throttle enough.

To start - practice riding along accelerating, then giving the throttle a small roll-off and back on. Get used to how much to roll off to stop accelerating but not get into engine braking - it's that "coasting" bit between acceleration and noticeable engine braking that is when the whole transmission is unloaded and the upshift can be done.

I found that once you get used to it you can do part throttle clutchless up-shifts with a pillion on and it feels seamless to them (no more head banging!)

Obviously a lot depends on the bike - as 12bhp bike has a lot more margin for error with throttle finesse than a 120bhp bike, and a well-adjusted chain and decent oil in the engine/box will both make your life a whole lot easier.

[j4ff]

I dont mind going down the gears either just not 2nd to 1st although i can do it i wouldnt say it was seemless.When you have just the right amount of throttle so the bike isnt pulling or slowing you can select up or down gear without the bike surging or slowing just the revs change up or down depending on selection.

I feel its more benefit going up through the gears as you can pin it and just roll off for a split second and pin again

[techno]

I do it alot going up the gears its a must if am riding one handed and its no problem and takes no time to get used to!

I wont even attempt it going down the gears, all Ive ever heard about that is dont do it, it nacks stuff up, am assuming that why you always see racers using a clutch to down shift slipper clutches or not!

[illvibetip]

thanks for the tips, I wouldnt have thought about 'easing it in' ahem... if that hadnt been pointed out.

I tried it both ways last night (sorry about that) when the rain let off for 5 effing mins and its just a bit more tricky going down but easlily do-able.

On my bike if i let the throttle off tooo much (the same as I usually would) it doesnt work so it works like a 'quick shift'. I can definately see the advantages of this! (good idea for one handed riding too techno).

Ive read other comments on other sites and they seem to give the impression that so long as you dont hammer it in, it doesnt do any real damage (this is mostly on the track). Though some people think this is cos they are always repairing the bikes. one guy reccons in a year he didnt see any difference on wear whether he used the clutch or not (a mechanic). I also read the clutch should mostly be used for moving out of first and putting the bike in neutral (ie cutting out the engine).

anyways, lots of possiblilities here!

oh, and thanks for the comments everyone.

[techno]

Still dont see any advantage from not using the clutch while down shifting and having talked to a mate of mine he agrees but each to there own!

[Guest philgale]

Make sure you have pressure on the gear level before you want to change then roll off the throttle slightly, wait for the gear to go in, then back on the throttle. Should only take a couple of seconds.

 

if its taking you a couple of seconds to change gear you need to practice a little bit, whole point of clutchless changes is to make it quicker, i do it on track every time from 2nd up.

did clutchless down at cadwell going into charles 1 by mistake (just forgot the clutch ) and just locked the rear, bit scary that was i can see with a slipper clutch wont make any odds to that but you are really upping the torque through the box i would of thought so probably causing some damage if done alot

[fullscreenaging]

I said this so he doesn't rush his first lot of clutch-less changing. We both know that when he gets the hang of it it will take less time than that.

On a different note:

(for OP)

You want to use your clutch for down-shifting so you can learn how to blip the throttle. That'll get you noticed

[illvibetip]

blip??????

[techno]

Blip as you clutch in blip throttle raises engine revs enough as so when you down change the engine speed matches the wheel speed or something like that so cuts down on engine breaking but also if done correctly sounds good.

[j4ff]

I am assuming that why you always see racers using a clutch to down shift slipper clutches or not!

what like Troy Bayliss

Keith Codes Twist of the wrist 2 at 84 in minutes explains clutchless downshifts.quote"Suprisingly easy when you get the timing right with or without a slipper clutch"

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[techno]

Ah I see how that explains why ALL racers dont use the clutch to down shift

The choice is yours!

[j4ff]

You said racers do i said they dont point over.

Just admit your wrong as the hole is getting deeper

3 time wsbk champ needs to go to the "Techno Superbike School"

The video being a mere example of smooth clutchless downshifts.Not from TOTW

Youll have to watch Twist of the wrist i think.

And if done correctly does not knack anything.

[techno]

But they do use the clutch to down shift You can clearly see them do it just cos its possible doesnt mean they dont????

The op is not a 3 time wsbk champion, i also said that there is nothing to be gained to doing it, as there is with clutchless up changes maybe i stand to be corrected on that

Seems the wether or not it will nack anything debate rages on the concensous seems to be that it wont if done correctly however it takes experiance and practice and if not done correctly could find you getting into trouble doesnt seem worth it imo. But whatever floats ya boat!!

[j4ff]

Its getting deeper

2001, 2006 and 2008 WSBK champion.........that makes 3

1999 BSB champion

Im as argumentative as you

[techno]

lol i said op ( original poster) wasnt 3 time superbike champ, didnt argue that bayliss wasnt

Please feel free to join me in my hole

Anyway moving a little off topic now.

[fullscreenaging]

You said racers do i said they dont point over.

Just admit your wrong as the hole is getting deeper

3 time wsbk champ needs to go to the "Techno Superbike School"

The video being a mere example of smooth clutchless downshifts.Not from TOTW

Youll have to watch Twist of the wrist i think.

And if done correctly does not knack anything.

 

Got to agree with Techno on this one.

Here's why....

Rossi (won't let me embed) 26 sec in.

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All the big guns in MotoGP use the clutch to down shift.

edit PG to show clip

[j4ff]

lol i see the hole.Im jumping.Its like following the riddler

[dex]

It's simple enough really- none of us are wsb, MOTO gp, etc.

Clutchless upshift:

For: faster, smoother with practice.

Against: can cause damage if done incorrectly.

Clutchless downshift:

For: no reason I fan think of

Against: can do damage, much harder to get smooth.

Seems pretty clear cut to me, if you do them both properly you benefit from the up, but gain nothing from the down. I've no wish to spend time learning a technique that has no benefits, and is very likely to make my riding less smooth and risk damage while I'm learning it.

[Mighty Mariner]

Rossi uses his clutch lever as a manual means of slipper clutching when downshifting, the concensus amongst TV pundits is that he has total control and is not reliant on the set up of a slipper clutch if he does this. Each rider will have preference or habit that is different to another for different reasons and racers will have their own preference for what gives them the fastest lap without falling off.

Personally I find clutchless up easy and preferable as it gives less time without power and is therefore (for me ) smoother. Clutchless downshifts (for Me) are difficult because they involve matching engine revs to road speed which because of the difference in ratio from 6th to 5th being a different step from say 4th to 3rd means having a different technique for every downshift. Plus the potential to completely wreck a gearbox/lock rear wheel etc. totally outweigh any benefit I can think of (for me)

[Guest philgale]

TBH unless your chasing 10th of a second round a track then clutchless changes has no benefit as fair as i can think, im sure you could quite happily go just as quick whilst using the clutch...

anyway i have Pmd a california superbike school riding coach who is going to ask the other coaches what they think on clutchless down changes, when i get a reply i will post it up...

since everyone quotes TOTW might as well get it from the horses mouth on what they teach...