Ride Events - responsibilities and common sense.

[hammer5]

There are changes happening that will affect ride-outs and its imperative those new and old are aware of the responsibilities in organising and taking part.

If you are the lead rider in a ride-out you can be held responsible and fined with penalty points if someone in your group breaks the law, that includes dangerous riding and speeding among all the other ways they can and will nick you if they can.

If you are new to the day out with a group ask the lead rider to explain his setup, such things as directions, do you stop behind the lead when the pack has split at a junction or do you ride ahead and he will take the lead when it is safe to do so or do you wait behind him, do you ride zig zag or do you ride tyre to tyre etc etc etc

If you are in a group of say 5 or more, if you are the last rider you will have to ride faster to keep up, this may push you and your limits due to experience however you should NOT try and keep up just because you have just passed or feel like you are holding the group up. Ride to your own limitations not to the groups. If you are on a 125 with a group don't stress we have all been there and we will wait for you, again don't risk your life trying to keep up.

Its the lead riders/organisers responsibility to ensure everyone gets home safe and sound, don't ruin a good day being a dickhead or trying to be clever, you are putting yourself and your groups lifes and well being at risk.

Remember the above and ensure you know the rules, above all enjoy it, but please get home safe.

BB

[Guest]

The forums take on this can be found here

http://www.themotorbikeforum.co.uk/view ... 12&t=12879

Can I suggest that riding tyre to tyre should always be avoided. And ultimatley the responsibility of riding is down to the rider themselves.

Howver in light of recent events, this subject is worth highlighting again.

[techno]

My disclaimer, I take no responsiblilty for anyone that happens to be heading to the same place I am on the same road.

If someone needs directing to a destination they ride to there own abilities its there choice and they ride at there own risk.

Its either that or find your own way and I'll see you there!

[hammer5]

The law (not judge dread) don't see.it that way now, this is the problem. it appears everyone is responsible for everyone's actions in the group...

[techno]

Have you got an actual link to that particular law or is it your interprtation of whats happened in yorkshire.

We had a rideout last year where someone was badly injured police attended and no further action.

[Ingah]

The law (not judge dread) don't see.it that way now, this is the problem. it appears everyone is responsible for everyone's actions in the group...

 

If you're ever in this situation and worried, my suggestion would be to button it, and lawyer up if necessary.

If the police want people to co-operate at RTCs, the best thing they can do is make it damn clear what circumstances they're looking to roger you for, and when not. Otherwise people will increasingly do the above, which will impede their enquiries.

[Guest akey]

BB3, have you got any solid links or articles that actually demonstrate that this is the approach now taken?

Having just spoken to a friedly traffic cop (yes there are some out there) they do not have any guidance from the CPS on this and that group riding is treated on a case by case basis exactly the same way as it has been for the past 5 years.

As the leader of a group, you cannot be held accountable for the actions of others within the group, however you can be held accountable for your influence on them and how your own actions influence them. The very same issues have been discussed and dealt with by Kayakers for years now and this is the line taken (not the same for qualified group leaders however).

[hammer5]

No formal just friendly advice from bike copper at the weekend.

BB

[Timmy Tiger]

Have you got an actual link to that particular law or is it your interprtation of whats happened in yorkshire.

We had a rideout last year where someone was badly injured police attended and no further action.

 

Thats in court tomorrow, my thoughts are the biker who was uninsured will get hung drawn and quartered, but I still can't see the others getting anything, unless the police could prove they were speeding. Anyway we all should know tomorrow.

[Timmy Tiger]

Hmmmmmm, I've just found this which is quite interesting.

http://www.gl1800.org.uk/goldwing-ownership/legal-responsibilities-of-a-group-ride-leader/

Brings in another question, are you insured to be a lead rider?

Soon your going to need to be insured to get insurance!

[nman1]

I`ve read the articles on the five guys getting done and I`m sure coppers must have a certain amount of common sense, but if I were happliy pootling down the road and for some reason a guy/gal, unbeknowst to me wanted to tail arse my bike for mile after mile and eventualy came off or whatever, how the feck could I be held responsible. I tell em to sit and swivel.

I`m sure this is going to be discussed to the enth degree but bloody hell....does this happen with cars.....push bikes.... roller skates.......skate boards, etc. Take responsibilty for your own actions and act like a man if you balls up.

What the feck is this coming to.

[Ingah]

What the feck is this coming to.

This, by the sound of it:

"Additional PLI cover (i.e. public liability, or more correctly these days civil liability insurance) is the way to be properly covered as a group ride leader. Riders who lead club ride outs should check that they are covered by their Club’s PLI policy, since that should provide indemnity against any negligence claims they might otherwise find themselves facing all on their lonesome."

What i can't work out is why haven't heard of whiff of this with car drivers driving "together", or are their bigger more damaging metal cages somehow more acceptable?

[nman1]

To put it as simple as possible..

YANK`ism or in the slightly amended words of our Kenny Everet....."SUE THE bast*rds".

I`m afraid my heels would be well dug in if anyone tried this one on me. would be the answer.

[techno]

I did some googling last night and this same thing is been discussed all over the internet on many forums, and with the same split of views.

Alot of people are awaiting the outcome of this trial and moreso awaiting the true facts to be published.

The mcn forum members are even asking the publication to report on proceedings, for what thats worth!

I know most dont read it but if you look in the site rules it does give this advice.

 

Rideouts and Meets.

Please make sure that:

1. Your bike is in a roadworthy condition.

2. You ride to rideouts/events at your own pace.

3. You ride at your own pace during rideouts and pay attention to the roads and what other riders are doing.

4. Be careful when meeting people for the first time and be wary of who you ride to and from rideouts/events with.

[Guest]

People are always going to be split on this one, and if you look at the timings of all these cases they always seem to be around the timing of the "start" of the "biking season" (yes, I know some people ride all year round).

Over the last 3 years I remember the following (and if my memory serves me correctly the cases are always delayed till the "start of the biking season" so make of that what you will :

The guy who was jailed for doing over a ton with his lad on the back

The ride leader who was charged for a speeding rider in his group

The case due to be heard tomorrow where sadly 2 people were killed

At the end of the day, surely there has to be evidence to charge people with crimes, and generally speaking we (the general public) are not always privy to ALL the evidence which is used to make the judgement.

Common sense should prevail here, and if everyone rides sensibly, within the perameters of the law then there shouldn't be a problem. As an example I was leading a ride where a guy came off his bike - the ambulance came, as too did the police. We weren't being stupid, and it was just one of those unlucky situations where the guy hit a patch of gravel (after they re-lay the road with loose chippings).

The police asked several questions at the scene and that was the end of that - no one was charged with any crime - it was just an unfortunate accident.

If people want to go racing round the countyside, antagonising car drivers, then if you have a crash, just think what they might say to the police if they are interviewed as a witness!!!

I'm sure each case is treated on it's own merits - the CPS won't allow a case to go to court if there isn't any evidence, so if you (or members of your group) don't break the law, how can you be charged.

At the end of the day we all have choices about who we ride out with - if you think some one is a kn@b head, or a danger to you or the group - don't ride with him / her - SIMPLES

[PhatDad]

Common sense should prevail here, and if everyone rides sensibly, within the perameters of the law then there shouldn't be a problem. As an example I was leading a ride where a guy came off his bike - the ambulance came, as too did the police. We weren't being stupid, and it was just one of those unlucky situations where the guy hit a patch of gravel (after they re-lay the road with loose chippings).

The police asked several questions at the scene and that was the end of that - no one was charged with any crime - it was just an unfortunate accident.

 

But if you were riding not quite to the speed limit and one of the people fell behind and HE then crashed trying to catch up with you how would you feel if they decided to nick you because you were leading the group? Not nicking you for speeding but nicking you for the same dangerous riding etc

[Ingah]

I'm sure each case is treated on it's own merits - the CPS won't allow a case to go to court if there isn't any evidence, so if you (or members of your group) don't break the law, how can you be charged.

At the end of the day we all have choices about who we ride out with - if you think some one is a kn@b head, or a danger to you or the group - don't ride with him / her - SIMPLES

You surely can't be saying that you believe that its fair to be punished merely for riding with/in the vicinity of "a kn@b head" - as you put it. Please remember, we're talking jail time and serious offenses here. These aren't offenses that should be brought to court at the drop of a hat!

And what if it was your first time riding with said kn@b head? Do you really think the police/CPS will care, if all they need to do is prove said idiot behind you was riding dangerously?

Hell let's assume the lead riding is speeding (by something in the region of 10mph or so - i.e. the usual 3 pointer absolute offense that often fails to take things like near-empty straight roads into account). Lock him up and throw away the key if some moron behind him rides outside of his/her own abilities and crashes. Fair?

Hey, what about if you're riding along and there's a bike in front/behind you? Does this mean if one of them crashes you're responsible as it "looks" like your riding together? Otherwise surely, the only way to prove this offense would be if you all admit to riding together in a group, which is pretty easy to avoid (two words: "no comment"). Can you really see them settling for that, or do you think they'll then start pushing for prosecution based on "probable cause".

The point, which you seem to be missing here, is that being charged for someone else's offense(s) the wrong way to do things. Either way, it's a very dangerous precedent to set, and is the sort of things i can see being subject to the creep creep that's making this country a naff place to live. Where's the personal responsibility that you expect from adults!

+1 to nman, i too would dig my heels right in.

[Guest akey]

Please will people stop jumping to the same scaremongering conclusions. We do not know the details of this case and everyone is suddenly assuming that this case applies to chance meetings of bikes, one of whom is riding like an idiot, or where there is a large group of bikers riding sensibly and one person who is riding like an idiot crashes.

Does this happen with other meetings and groups, as I have already said, yes it does kayakers, RC Car meets, and many others.

Until we know exactly what happened and what the outcome of the trial is we should stop panicking and scarmongering.

[techno]

Out of all the meets rideouts and accidents over the course of a year/years this is the only case....not exactly common!

Take also the complete silence of mcn, mag etc and it speaks volumes to the fact it isnt a vendetta, we all need to wait for the real facts to be published!

[Guest]

You surely can't be saying that you believe that its fair to be punished merely for riding with/in the vicinity of "a kn@b head" - as you put it.

 

Absolutely not.

The point I was trying to make is this :

If all this stuff worries you and you think someone else's actions may put your lively hood at risk, make the choice to leave the ride out, or maybe have a word with the individual, or don't ride with them again.

I've left rides in the past beacuse I was concerned for my safety, and I've stopped riding with some people becuase I don't like the way they ride and I think thier actions could cause accidents - That's my personal choice.

In reply to the rest of your post and that of Phatdad - what's the point in trying to best guess the "lets assume this", "lets assume that", "what if this", "what if that". The simple answer is that we can't - as pointed out by others - we don't always have all the facts, so we'd be making assumptions, which quite possibly are incorrect.

Again, as pointed out by others, it's all too easy to blow this all out of proportion. If you ride sensibly, with others who are sensible, then there shouldn't be a problem. As pointed out in my example above - the police came to the accident in my ride out - there wasn't any evidence of any thing untowards so they left it at that. If witnesses said that we had been riding like kn@b heads, then maybe the outcome could have been different. Each case is treated on it's own merits by the police. If there is evidence that someone has broken the law then they will consider a prosecution.

There is no easy answer to this, everyone will have their own ideas, assumptions, points to make etc etc. but please don't go spoiling / panicing everyone else so that they don't go on ride outs or organise rides in the future.