EU... in or out

[MarkW]

Politics.

No matter who wins, everyone is unhappy it seems.

Problem we have is we all have different situations and circumstances so we won't agree. At the end of the day, Everyone who wanted/could vote, did. The majority won. If people feel so strongly about their party not being in power they should do something about it apart from moaning all the time.

First Past the Post in a three-party system like ours means that the majority of people who vote can still get a government they don't want. If the percentage voting split is 40/30/30 the party with 40% wins and 60% of us get a government we didn't want.

[Glorian]

Sigh..

So what system would you rather please? We have 3 governments in charge all sharing responsbility? We had that a few years back and look how well it worked.

[Gin]

Sigh..

So what system would you rather please? We have 3 governments in charge all sharing responsbility? We had that a few years back and look how well it worked.

 

Mmm I did the whole "Coalition is complete crap, no ones getting what they want" but since seeing what a full Tory government is doing without the Lib Dems to reign them in slightly, I think that having a more split government with mass votes among the MPs would be a better way of doing things..

Edit: I didn't agree with further air attacks in Syria (Conversation for another thread) but I listening through all the house debates and was happy with the vote that happened in the end because of the way it had been carried out.

I cannot say that I am fully knowledgable about these matters at all! I'm a young Lass who got really involved in one election and slightly less so the one before..

I think a vote for your area MP along side a vote for Prime minister would better suit.

For instance the MP I voted for was labour, because he's had his seat for years and is a brilliant guy, very good at what he does.

However, did this mean I wanted Miliband to lead the country? f**k no!

[MarkW]

Sigh..

So what system would you rather please? We have 3 governments in charge all sharing responsbility? We had that a few years back and look how well it worked.

 

With much respect, you've slightly missed my point mate. I don't know enough about the intricacies of First Past the Post, Proportional Representation or Mixed Member voting systems to have an opinion that is worth a damn: I was just saying that the way our system currently works means that it is perfectly possible for the majority of the people who vote to get something they didn't vote for, in which case they are perfectly entitled to moan.

[Fozzie]

It is a shambles the way we vote.

Look how many people voted for UKIP!

They got 1 seat to show for it despite having double the vote share of the SNP.

Fair?

Should be done on votes, not seats.

[RantMachine]

Hey check this out!

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTAyWDUwMg==/z/RdcAAOxyx-BSb7Q1/$(KGrHqNHJE!FJbw+EveyBSb7Q1M!!Q~~60_35.JPG

I found it in the corner, all covered in cobwebs - almost like someone brought it here and then found a significantly shorter one to poke things with

I'm voting "In". As far as I'm aware, neither option is perfect! But then absolutes rarely are. I think we'll find a way to be f**ked either way, and something new to complain about I can't even begin to pretend to comprehend all of the ramifications (nor can anyone!) but I know a whole lot of decent and hard working people who will suddenly have to leave, and the gaps will be filled with people from within these borders who weren't skilled enough or hard working enough to land the job in the first place. That's as good as reason to sway me one way or the other as I can find right now.

As a side note, it's going to make touring Europe a right shit, too.

[RantMachine]

Oh, and as Joe said - whatever happens, if it turns to shit afterwards I'll be leaving the whole mess behind anyhow!

[Fozzie]

Oh, and as Joe said - whatever happens, if it turns to shit afterwards I'll be leaving the whole mess behind anyhow!

 

And for those who don't have the USA as a back up plan?

I don't think we'll kick anyone out, those here will likely be given the chance to remain. Or at least that is what I expect.

Plus travelling won't be any harder, it will just mean you need to have a passport stamped when you enter Europe. But as they have free movement once you're in, you can go anywhere... Or at least that's how it has been explained to me?

[RantMachine]

You seem a little uninformed on the small topic of Visas, those things thst people generally need when travelling between non EU countries

[Gin]

Rant, you wouldn't want to hop to America if Trump is President would you?

[Grumpy Old Git]

In (out, shake it all about).

The only way we will be able to get our Empire back is to remain in the EU and (eventually0 gain full control of it (the same way that germany appears to have done). Out and we have little influence.

For those who say 'out' due to the 'rules imposed by the EU that we follow' - Do you not realise that none of our Laws will change once we leave! We follow those rules because we do - Check out what the other members do (especially with regard to the display of raw fish / meat outside shop premises).

The big impacts if we leave will be trade and migrant workers (especially in East Anglia).

[MarkW]

Rant, you wouldn't want to hop to America if Trump is President would you?

Trump for president and Boris for PM. Just imagine the photo opportunities...

[RantMachine]

Rant, you wouldn't want to hop to America if Trump is President would you?

 

Hells no! USA isn't the only option though, joys of having a partner whose skills are in high demand worldwide. We've got Denmark on the cards at present, along with a few others. I like it here (hence the househunt) but won't hesitate to jump if the shit hits the fan!

Edited February 23, 2016 by RantMachine

[Joeman]

Rant, you wouldn't want to hop to America if Trump is President would you?

 

Hells no! USA isn't the only option though, joys of having a partner whose skills are in high demand worldwide. We've got Denmark on the cards at present, along with a few others.

 

Denmark is borderline communist!!

[Fozzie]

but won't hesitate to jump if the shit hits the fan!

 

Where can I go in this country where shit isn't hitting the fan?

In the UK, shit hitting the fan is like a DFS sale. Just won't f**king stop.

[Grumpy Old Git]

but won't hesitate to jump if the shit hits the fan!

 

Where can I go in this country where shit isn't hitting the fan?

 

 

The TMBF Rally - That's where!

[Fozzie]

I'll be there.

[Glorian]

I'll be there.

 

I'll be there once i send you my brake to fix

[RantMachine]

Wuss

I've ridden without working brakes LOADS of times, hasn't killed me yet...

[Fozzie]

You seem a little uninformed on the small topic of Visas, those things thst people generally need when travelling between non EU countries

 

This is where it gets a bit sticky!

I understand visas, their function etc, but how would this work in Europe where there is a free movement policy?

Will it be a case of showing your passport at the border and needing a visa for each country you visit? Or once you're in any particular European country, do you just need the one visa to go between all of the countries in the union?

As if the latter that's not really a problem to me as it's similar to the USA! Just with more border crossings for the single visa.

[RantMachine]

Well, my Visa comment refers to two of the issues you raised, not just one;

Firstly, with regards to

I don't think we'll kick anyone out, those here will likely be given the chance to remain. Or at least that is what I expect.

Granting amnesty on this kind of level isn't something that countries tend to do! Grabbing some stats from Oxford University's migration observatory, at the start of 2015 there were 1.9 million EU born migrants working in the UK. Can you imagine the paperwork that comes with granting permanent leave to remain to 1.9 million people?!? At the moment, someone who wants to apply for permanent leave has to spend at least 5 continuous years in the UK, and must not exceed a set number of days outside of the UK in that time. And even then, they still decline a lot of people! And I'm not talking people who do menial jobs, I'm talking research scientists and architects that get told to bugger off As soon as we leave the EU, every single person living in the UK without UK citizenship would at the very least need a work visa, same as any other foreign national. And of course, the reverse is true for anyone from the UK who has relocated to an EU country (roughly 1.2 million off them); if they can't get a visa sorted, it's back to Blighty at short notice for them.

And on this bit:

Plus travelling won't be any harder, it will just mean you need to have a passport stamped when you enter Europe. But as they have free movement once you're in, you can go anywhere... Or at least that's how it has been explained to me?

The UK isn't part of the Schengen area, and as such our right to travel into the EU without a Visa stems solely from our EU membership - so if we leave the EU it is entirely possible that you would require a tourist visa to get into your first Schengen area country, but then as with any other tourist you would be able to travel freely between them. This is a bit different to the USA though, seeing as the USA operate the visa waiver (ESTA) scheme; as you know, getting permission to enter the USA on holiday requires filling out a quick form online from the comfort of your own home. A visa can require posting copies of travel documents, ID photos, and various other bits of junk to an embassy or consulate, while paying much higher fees than the pocket change charged by the ESTA. Oh, and they might reject you, forcing you to make an appointment at the embassy/consulate to try and re-apply in person, but that usually takes months so better hope you booked ahead...

If the EU aren't bitter about the whole thing, and can be bothered, they could choose to implement some sort of Visa waiver - but there's not guarantee of that. And no amount of visas or visa waivers offer the same freedom of movement (and duration of travel) that we currently enjoy.

[Fozzie]

To the first point, I agree it doesn't tend to happen but what choice have they got? They'd have to draw a line and look at those who came during the Euro membership and those who arrived after separately. Separated from the EU we could tailor our visa system anyway so there is a resolution there I think, just not an easy one!

And to the second, that's what I'm interested to see. Europe would have to be very bitter not to invent a simple system like that. Plus it would hurt their tourism industry, and after losing a big economy you don't want to lose any more I suspect

Edit - Above all else, I'd vote in if we weren't governed by the EU. We should be free to dictate our own laws to an extent as so far they've hurt as many businesses as they've helped from what I've read. A quick look at the agricultural industry shows the damage they've had. I swear they invent rules because they have nothing else do to. My big question has always been, why does unity require unelected leaders to implement laws we never wanted/asked for?

[MarkW]

What's this visa stuff of which you speak? When I go to the US next week I'm planning on turning up at immigration with a cup of tea, singing Rule Britannia and waving a crumpet in the air.

Edited February 23, 2016 by MarkW

[Throttled]

I am in. The major reason being that the EU won the Noble Peace prize in 2012;

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/10/eu-receives-nobel-peace-prize

"The European Union's three presidents have collected the Nobel peace prize in Oslo in recognition of six decades of work promoting "peace and reconciliation, democracy and human rights"."

I studied history at university and many people do not know about the full level of turmoil and lack of democracy and human rights until very recently in Europe. Norway only became independent in 1905, Ireland in 1922. Spain only became a democracy in 1975. The Balkan countries had to wait until the 1990s for that to happen. Having a court of Human Rights only became law in 1959. Greek women first got the vote in 1952. What we take for granted is very recent and the bulk of European democracy and human rights has happened after 1945.

As for peace and reconciliation Europe has been fighting amongst itself for millennia. WWII laid much of Europe to waste because of the enormous advances in warfare technology. Rather than fall back into war, which happened after WWI, we cooperate. The recent turmoil in Europe regarding the financial crash and now refugees has resulted in meetings and cooperation, not fighting. The idea of a Europe at war again is not even considered as a possible.

The European Union did that. That is why it got the Noble Peace prize. That such is hardly known is because peace, reconciliation, democracy and human rights are taken as granted. Considering even recent European history that is amazing.

Then the EU gets slagged off but it has done a lot of simple work that has been a major benefit such as stopping lots of different phone chargers. We slag of EU immigrants to the UK, but the country in the EU with the most citizens working elsewhere in the EU is us. Poland comes second. Without the EU they lose a shed load of protection and rights.

Finally, leaving the EU will likely trigger another Scottish referendum and nationalism and division rears its ugly head again. I prefer nationalism and cooperation.

[Gin]

Wow! Honestly that was awesome Throttled

I didn't know most of those dates and I certainly didn't know about the Nobel prize!