EU... in or out

[MarkW]

Just arrived in Atlanta, and now waiting for my connection to San Francisco. The tea and crumpet-waving worked a treat at immigration.

[Guest]

The EU was awarded the Noble Peace Prize. No EU country has gone to war or is remotely likely to go to war with another. Both are due to the cooperation and lines of communication between countries that the EU provides. That is my evidence of the security the EU provides.

Terrorists can roam even with border controls. During the Troubles the Irish border was very heavily policed and patrolled. Terrorists had no problems moving from one country to another. There were terrorist strikes prior to Schengen. The IRA struck at army bases in Europe.

 

So no you can't prove it can you. As you can't prove that if we hadn't got an EU then we would be at each others throats.

Yes the IRA struck in Europe but how many more attacks would there have been if we had an open border policy? I lock my house when I leave as it helps to deter theft. Yes thefts still happen but it makes it harder. Ditto a closed border.

[Guest]

I am sorry, but the load of bollocks has been from you and your lack of knowledge as to what the EU does and does not do.

 

Err no mate I have not seen anyone who has said kick all the imigrants out as the original post I replied to was whinging on about. Saying I would loose my favorite chippy and shops due to imigrants running them. This was the original load of old bollocks posted.

[Guest]

We should make the biggest contribution because we are the wealthiest, or are you for taxing the poor to help the wealthy?

 

So because we have made our country "better" than other countries we should pay more to prop them up? We should bail out Countries like Greece and France where avoiding paying taxes is a national pastime? Why should we be penalised for getting our economy right and working?

[Valko]

......

What a load of old bollocks mate. People like me who want to leave are against mass uncontrolled imigration.

 

I have not met anyone who is for mass uncontrolled immigration. The UK has not signed up for Schengen and so still has border controls. As for the countries in Schengen, as soon as a mass uncontrolled immigration took place border controls were put back up.

 

I have nothing against people who want to come here to work. But and its a very BIG but. We should be like Australia where we are very choosey about who we allow in. We should allow genuine asylum seekers who go through the legal channels to claim it. But this number should be limited. But to just take any waif and stray in is wrong.

 

No one from the EU can claim asylum in the UK. EU residents can come to the UK and work and about as many UK residents work elsewhere in the EU as EU residents work here.

 

I remember and have worked with many Asians who came over here in the 70's when they were booted out from the then Uganda. They fled the country with nothing and came here with nothing. But we as a nation took them in and helped them get on their own two feet. Yet they came here expecting to work and didn't expect or get much in the way of hand outs from the state. But of change from the people who are coming over now isn't it. This is my issue with imigration.

Yes there are many Eastern Europians who work hard but we have had to absorb the mass influx of those who don't and are unskilled and can't get a Job. Or turn to crime like mass Romianian pick pocket gangs the police warn us about.

 

Please stop conflating asylum with migration for work. EU rules are clear, no job and you cannot live in the UK. EU rules mean removing EU citizens with no job is straightforward. You are wrong to blame the EU for the UK with its border controls still letting in Romanian pick pocket gangs.

 

We also have the stupid situation where due to the Human Rights court we can't kick rapists and murderers out as it would be against their Human Rights. You couldn't make this shit up could you. We should say to anyone who comes here behave or loose you rights to be here and you WILL be deported with no right to appeal.

 

That does happen with EU citizens. Any EU citizen in the UK who commits a crime is reported by the police to the Home Office. The Home Office then makes a decision and can and does does remove people from the UK and ban them from returning. A minor road traffic offence is not going to get an EU citizen removed, a robbery will. If the UK is not in the EU any more then we need an agreement with each EU country to have its citizens who commit crimes returned. They may not agree.

The rapists who cannot be sent back are those who got asylum here and cannot be returned to be killed or tortured. That is not a result of the EU, that is from UK membership of the Council of Europe and the ECHR, not the EU.

I am sorry, but the load of bollocks has been from you and your lack of knowledge as to what the EU does and does not do.

 

Just for the record, and I do not mean to offend or call you names guys, but and this is a BIG but, by the UK law discriminating agains romanians or bulgarian is racist. You may not know that, but yes you are racist doing that. Surprise

As defined by the UK law:

 

The Race Relations Act 1976 makes it unlawful for a person to discriminate on racial grounds against another person. The Act defines racial grounds as including race, colour, nationality or ethnic or national origins...

 

There are more french than romanians in London. I have not heard any argument so far lets leave the EU so that we can get rid of all french people. Pretty sure the relative amount of french criminals is exactly the same as relative amount of romanian criminals compared to the 99.9 % of hard working ones.

BTW European arrest warrant makes it much easier to get rid of crimanals, which is one more real argument in favor of EU.

At the end the UK people will vote and decide. It will be good if that vote is based on real facts, not on scaremongering anti-EU campaign.

[Throttled]

The EU was awarded the Noble Peace Prize. No EU country has gone to war or is remotely likely to go to war with another. Both are due to the cooperation and lines of communication between countries that the EU provides. That is my evidence of the security the EU provides.

Terrorists can roam even with border controls. During the Troubles the Irish border was very heavily policed and patrolled. Terrorists had no problems moving from one country to another. There were terrorist strikes prior to Schengen. The IRA struck at army bases in Europe.

 

So no you can't prove it can you. As you can't prove that if we hadn't got an EU then we would be at each others throats.

Yes the IRA struck in Europe but how many more attacks would there have been if we had an open border policy? I lock my house when I leave as it helps to deter theft. Yes thefts still happen but it makes it harder. Ditto a closed border.

 

In the history of Europe, this is the only time crises has not resulted in at least mobilisation and a stand off between armies. I consider that proof of the effectiveness of the EU.

We do not have open borders. The Schengen agreement is separate to our membership of the EU. So your claims about open borders are moot and nothing to do with membership of the EU. In the EU we have border control, out of the EU we have border control.

[Throttled]

We should make the biggest contribution because we are the wealthiest, or are you for taxing the poor to help the wealthy?

 

So because we have made our country "better" than other countries we should pay more to prop them up? We should bail out Countries like Greece and France where avoiding paying taxes is a national pastime? Why should we be penalised for getting our economy right and working?

 

We are not bailing out Greece and France! We are not in the Eurozone (which only Greece needs bailing out, not France). If we leave the EU we are not also leaving the Eurozone, because we were never in the Eurozone. The UK contribution to the EU funding is not going to Eurozone bail outs.

Why should the rich who have been successful and made themselves better than the poor pay taxes to the poor? Why should the rich be penalised for working and getting their personal finances right?

[Six30]

Go away... who ever said the word racist, It's not racist not wanting the UK bursting at the seams , no matter what colour any one is or where they are from.

[Valko]

Go away... who ever said the word racist, It's not racist not wanting the UK bursting at the seams , no matter what colour any one is or where they are from.

 

Somehow the facts are different. So the leave campaign are fine to have australians here, asians are fine too, but somehow romanians are not so fine

I do have said the word racist. Prove me wrong than

Yes Nigel Farage and UKIP are racist. Bear in mind we are establishing the facts here. Lets not get all agitated and do that in a calm rational manner, shall we?

About bursting to seems, that is one of the many lies and myths.

Actually immigrants help economy and make unemployement lower as well. And they're not overburdening public services, either.

FYI the facts in the link below.

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/articl ... bJiNkKwaml

 

Below we've taken some of the most common myths and misconceptions about migration in an effort to separate fact from political rhetoric and tabloid fiction:

1. Yes, immigration levels are high, but that's not a bad thing

An estimated 641,000 people immigrated to Britain in 2014, 284,000 of them for work, which is the highest ever annual figure. While the government puts a negative spin on this, the truth is that Britain's economy has started to grow again, which makes it attractive as a place to seek work - and both right and left leaning think tanks say our growing economy needs them.

2. Immigrants aren't stealing your jobs

After borders in the EU were opened in the mid 2000s, many eastern Europeans did come to the UK in search of higher paid work than they could get at home.

However: recorded unemployment rates went down between 2003 - 2005, and recorded vacancy rates went up slightly.

Many of these people work in occupations such as catering, driving, and construction, where wages are often driven down, but Professor John Salt of UCL’s Migration Research Unit told The Independent that "the econometric evidence suggests immigration doesn’t generally impact on the pay or employment rates of existing citizens".

1 A protester holds a sign during a march hoping to draw attention to claims of exploitation and discrimination of migrant workers, in Trafalgar Square on May 7, 2007 in London.

3. And they're not overburdening public services, either

Recent immigrants have made a net contribution of £20bn to the UK over the last ten years, according to a UCL study.

Foreign born people are much less likely to claim benefits or live in social housing since to qualify you need to have permanent residency in the UK - those on work visas, students and asylum seekers don't qualify. A report from the Equality and Human Rights Commission found that 90 per cent of public housing goes to people born in the country.

4. No, most immigrants aren't here illegally

The phrase 'illegal immigrant' is a contradiction in terms. Someone arriving in the UK could be a migrant from elsewhere within the EU, a migrant fleeing persecution or desperate poverty further afield, or a refugee from a conflict zone. Someone who is an 'asylum seeker' has every legal right to be in the country - they're waiting on a decision.

5. Yes, people do learn English

The majority of migrants in the UK already speak English when they arrive - the 2011 census showed that only 138,000 of the 7.5 million non-UK born residents in the country don't speak English, and many of those are thought to be older generation Asian women who never worked or lived outside their communities.

It was estimated in the census that 1.7 million can speak English very well, a further 1.6 million can speak fluently and 726,000 can get by in conversation but have difficulties with written English.

Since an English language test is now part of work visa conditions, this situation is likely to continue.

2 British Prime Minister David Cameron is shown around a house which was raided earlier in the day by immigration officers on December 18, 2013 in Southall, London.

6. Europe and the UK definitely don't host more than their fair share of refugees

The opposite is true. Developing countries host over 80 per cent of the world's refugee population, and Turkey, which is home to 1.59million Syrians fleeing war at home, is the most stretched.

Germany is currently home to 7.2million non-German residents - and their media is puzzled by how Britain is up in arms about a migration crisis.

7. No, relaxed laws don't lead to a an inundation of migrants

As in the highly published case of Victor Spiresau from Romania, who landed at Luton airport on January 1st 2014 ready to start work and was greeted by two MPs, the scaremongering predictions once EU labour restrictions on Romanians and Bulgarians were lifted did not lead to an influx of migrants.

Overall, Bulgarians who did leave home went to Denmark and Germany, where wages are higher, or to Italy and Spain where there are already established communities.

8. Migrants do contribute to the UK economy since many can't even afford to send money to their families elsewhere

While everyone is entitled to use their earnings to support their loved ones, since the economic crisis hit in 2008 remittance to migrant workers' countries of origin has actually fallen as many people who work in the UK and have families elsewhere have to tighten the purse strings, according to the World Bank.

3

9. People's level of worry over immigrants is not related to how many immigrants there actually are

During the last election immigration ranked consistently high in voters' concerns, but it had no bearing on where people live. In Wales, 20 per cent said it was their most pressing worry, and in the north-east, 19 per cent, although only one in 20 people living in these regions was born abroad.

10. Crime rates fall rather than rise in areas with concentrated migrant populations

The presence of immigrant communities has no bearing on levels of violent crime, and in some areas, a slight increase in property crime, according to LSE research.

In areas with eastern European communities, all crime rates have fallen.

“Immigrants are just like natives – if they have a good job and income they don’t commit crime," Brian Bell, a research fellow at LSE, said in a statement.

[Six30]

immigration is to high that's a fact , 333,000 last year , a rise of 28% from the year before, so if that continues we won't be bursting at the seams then

The conservatives must be racist as well cause they are repeating what Farage has been saying about immigration , I could find something to copy and paste to prove this but can't be arsed , I'm sure you can though .

[techno]

The European superstate is falling apart at the seams, people bang on about how much we pay to help other countries out, while admirable I'm sure there's plenty at home that needs help and how much is actually really getting to the people that really need it in these countries and not lining the pockets of the people that run the EU and all the stupid shit we read about on a daily basis.

How many pro Europeans would have been happy to join the euro way back when but must be glad now that we never did?

I don't like the word racist being bandied about I'm not against immigration either but being told how many you have to accept regardless of their use to the country is out of order no matter where they are from.

I dont believe we will have any problems not being part of this failure and to me personally it's an actual chance to make a real difference to our future, however I feel that the vote will be to stay.

But whichever way you vote at least you've had a say and an opinion, to not vote or even worse to say you don't care is pretty f**king dumb and if that's your standpoint please in future don't whine about something you clearly don't care about.

[Guest]

The European superstate is falling apart at the seams

 

If thats the case then why bother leaving.. stay in and watch it fall apart from our side of the channel.

unless of course.. its not really falling apart at the seams and this is just more propaganda.

Because if it were really coming apart and about to fail.. this would cause a world wide financial shock with stock exchanges completely freaking out. even a hint would be enough.

is that happening... err, no.

gotta love propaganda.

 

.....all the stupid shit we read about on a daily basis.

 

hmmm..

[Throttled]

immigration is to high that's a fact , 333,000 last year , a rise of 28% from the year before, so if that continues we won't be bursting at the seams then

The conservatives must be racist as well cause they are repeating what Farage has been saying about immigration , I could find something to copy and paste to prove this but can't be arsed , I'm sure you can though .

 

That has nothing to do with the EU and more to do with our membership of the EEA. That attached list of countries with the most immigrants to the UK has as many from non EEA countries as EEA countries.

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.u ... k-overview

Please stop blaming the EU for everything to do with immigration. Especially when as many UK citizens work elsewhere in the EU as they work here.

[Throttled]

The European superstate is falling apart at the seams,

 

The supposed EU superstate is actually the EU, Council of Europe, EEA, EFTA, Eurozone, ECU, Schengen, NATO and some others which are not all the same organisation and each can be joined or not joined. It is not falling apart, only the UK is having a referendum at the moment and no other member is even considering one.

 

people bang on about how much we pay to help other countries out, while admirable I'm sure there's plenty at home that needs help and how much is actually really getting to the people that really need it in these countries and not lining the pockets of the people that run the EU and all the stupid shit we read about on a daily basis.

 

Sorry, but that is unevidenced propaganda. The EU pays 50% of UK farmers income and of the £13 billion paid we got back £4 billion. The £55million a day that is being bandied about is how much the UK gives to the EU and it does not take into account the money we get back in the rebate or EU spending here. The actual figure is £22 million a day, which sounds a lot, but it is tiny in the scale of things.

https://fullfact.org/economy/our-eu-mem ... 5-million/

 

How many pro Europeans would have been happy to join the euro way back when but must be glad now that we never did?

 

Very few, Labour who are very pro-EU where in power when we did not join the Eurozone.

 

I don't like the word racist being bandied about I'm not against immigration either but being told how many you have to accept regardless of their use to the country is out of order no matter where they are from.

 

The debate is bordering on racist when it reveals that many do not know the difference between the different types of migrant and spout off more about one country than another.

 

I dont believe we will have any problems not being part of this failure and to me personally it's an actual chance to make a real difference to our future, however I feel that the vote will be to stay.

But whichever way you vote at least you've had a say and an opinion, to not vote or even worse to say you don't care is pretty f**king dumb and if that's your standpoint please in future don't whine about something you clearly don't care about.

 

I so want this debate to be a way of improving knowledge of Europe and the EU.

[RantMachine]

I will reaffirm what I said at the start, I couldn't disagree more with the sentiment that:

But whichever way you vote at least you've had a say and an opinion, to not vote or even worse to say you don't care is pretty f**king dumb and if that's your standpoint please in future don't whine about something you clearly don't care about.

There is something far far worse than wasting your vote; using it to vote for something without actually understanding the implications of what you are voting for, and there are one hell of a lot of wildly uniformed people planning to vote in this referendum, on BOTH sides of the table. I don't aim this at anyone particular, inside of this conversation or out; I say it in a general sense. A huge portion of our population do not have enough of a grasp of the debate to be having a say in it. I respect Ricky and others like him for his stance in this, one heck of a lot more than I do anyone who is casting a vote while being oblivious of the consequence -, and I include uniformed people that are voting the same way as I intend to.

[Six30]

Ok people ..enough already, hang em up .... Time out

[techno]

I will reaffirm what I said at the start, I couldn't disagree more with the sentiment that:

But whichever way you vote at least you've had a say and an opinion' date=' to not vote or even worse to say you don't care is pretty f**king dumb and if that's your standpoint please in future don't whine about something you clearly don't care about.[/quote']There is something far far worse than wasting your vote; using it to vote for something without actually understanding the implications of what you are voting for, and there are one hell of a lot of wildly uniformed people planning to vote in this referendum, on BOTH sides of the table. I don't aim this at anyone particular, inside of this conversation or out; I say it in a general sense. A huge portion of our population do not have enough of a grasp of the debate to be having a say in it. I respect Ricky and others like him for his stance in this, one heck of a lot more than I do anyone who is casting a vote while being oblivious of the consequence -, and I include uniformed people that are voting the same way as I intend to.

 

I absolutely knew I'd get this reply and I can see the point your making but on the flip side it will effect many people in different ways and I've read many sides of this in this thread alone however I still feel if you have any opinion on any of it then you should make a choice one way or the other, does anyone really have all the answers or seriuosly know exactly what the consequences will be? I'd wager absolutely not.

Like any election people have their own views, just saying people shouldn't use their vote because they aren't up on everything is ridiculous and tbh who the hell should decide who should and who shouldn't have their say.

Agree or not its my opinion.

[rennie]

I strongly feel that everybody should vote!

I'm still struggling because of the lack of un-biased information.

That's why I like this thread! I've read other people's take on things

even learnt stuff!

different opinions are good!

lets try not to fall out though!

[RantMachine]

I think we're doing pretty well, couple of passionate arguments in play but nobody has had a tantrum and said "NO BECAUSE YOU'RE STUPID" yet

[Guest]

In the history of Europe, this is the only time crises has not resulted in at least mobilisation and a stand off between armies. I consider that proof of the effectiveness of the EU.

 

Yet again you haven't proved that the EU has stopped wars. As there is no way you can prove that not having an EU would mean more wars. For it to be a fact the there must be a means to measure against. If we say Crash helmets and seat belts save lives then we can look back at the results and measure the facts one way or the other. But you have no valid figures to prove your statement. Unless you can go to a parrellel universe where the EU didn't exist and then see if we had more wars or not.

[Guest]

We are not bailing out Greece and France! We are not in the Eurozone (which only Greece needs bailing out, not France). If we leave the EU we are not also leaving the Eurozone, because we were never in the Eurozone. The UK contribution to the EU funding is not going to Eurozone bail outs.

 

So you know exactly where all our money we have paid in goes in that bloated mess that we call the EU?

[Guest]

Somehow the facts are different. So the leave campaign are fine to have australians here, asians are fine too, but somehow romanians are not so fine

 

 

I have said for years we should have had a points system for anyone to move here ( EU member or not). Australia and the other sensible thinking countries have had this in place for years. WTF haven't we.

[Throttled]

In the history of Europe, this is the only time crises has not resulted in at least mobilisation and a stand off between armies. I consider that proof of the effectiveness of the EU.

 

Yet again you haven't proved that the EU has stopped wars. As there is no way you can prove that not having an EU would mean more wars. For it to be a fact the there must be a means to measure against. If we say Crash helmets and seat belts save lives then we can look back at the results and measure the facts one way or the other. But you have no valid figures to prove your statement. Unless you can go to a parrellel universe where the EU didn't exist and then see if we had more wars or not.

 

People started to use crash helmets and wear seat belts and crash casualties were reduced from that point. Countries in the Europe joined together in the EU (and other organisations) and the instances of fighting were reduced from that point (to zero).

[Throttled]

We are not bailing out Greece and France! We are not in the Eurozone (which only Greece needs bailing out, not France). If we leave the EU we are not also leaving the Eurozone, because we were never in the Eurozone. The UK contribution to the EU funding is not going to Eurozone bail outs.

 

So you know exactly where all our money we have paid in goes in that bloated mess that we call the EU?

 

Yes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036096.stm

Agriculture (remember the old EEC) gets the most as it sustains Europe's rather chaotic food production system. About 50% of UK farmers income is from the EU. So even if we leave that is £4.1 billion we will not save, unless you want to destroy the UK farming sector.

Regional aid, which is often infrastructure for remoter, poorer areas. hence on my motorcycle tours of Scotland I often see EU signs to show a road or bridge has had EU funding. That is about £2.5 billion that we will not save of we leave the EU, unless you want to return the remote areas back to having no decent roads etc.

Then there is foreign aid and the EU is the biggest donor organisation in the world. That makes me proud, we can afford it, we are stinking rich when it comes to countries of the world. There is also an EU disaster fund ready to act in times of disaster, anywhere in the world.

Then there is administration, which at 6.8 billion euros is a lot. But the Mayor of London's budget is 4.2 billion euros

Finally some that I think should get way more spending; research, technology and education. That is the future where Europe should lead the world. So even if we leave the EU we really should stay in the European research Council as joined up research benefits all.

[Guest]

People started to use crash helmets and wear seat belts and crash casualties were reduced from that point. Countries in the Europe joined together in the EU (and other organisations) and the instances of fighting were reduced from that point (to zero).

 

Nope mate. We have not fought Germany or Italy since WWII. France has not fought Germany or Italy since WWII. In fact apart from a few wars when the Soviet union imploded Europe has been fairly stable since WWII. So given that the EU has not been around since WWII and only started in 1957 as the EEC then you point is rather mute. So maybe we haven't had any wars in Europe because the Soviet Union isn't around any more. Or maybe its because of NATO, or maybe its because we are less willing to send people to die in pointless wars due to better access to information.

so you see the problem is that we have not had any wars in Europe for many reasons. Where as seat belts and crash helmets have been proven to reduce deaths and injurys. So I say again you can't prove that the EU has stopped wars as there are other many reasons why we have not had any.