TC1474 Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 I was in a meeting today when I was asked a question on cornering. The guy I was speaking to didn't like the answer, but as a result of this conversation I thought some of you might like a little teaser of a question which might just get the old grey matter working You are out on the bike riding along a lovely section of road for the very first time. You are riding in a national speed limit (60). You approach a bend which you have never ridden before. The road surface is good, the weather is fine and clear and traffic flow is light. You decide to take the bend at 30 MPH. You come out the other side safely and realise that you could have gone quicker, so being a lovely section of road, you turn around and go back and ride it again. This time you ride the same bend at 40. It is still safe and legal and it still feels comfortable, so you do it again at 50 and again at 60.On each and every occasion you have ridden the bend it has been comfortable, safe and legal, but what is the correct speed for the bend? 30? 40? 50? or 60?Not a trick question I assure you, answers on a postcard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshRS Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 neither. he should've kept going higher, he loses man points for not exceeding the speed limit on a good corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starkey Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 the speed I feel most comfortable at?*edit wait,if it was comfy every time then thats wrong....darn! sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 What's visibility like on the bend? Bear in mind that you never know for sure what's just outside your field of vision, there can always be a broken down vehicle, a tree branch, a patch of oil or something else you'd rather avoid, even on a road you know well.On that basis, if you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear at 60mph, then 60mph it is. If you can't, back off until you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogof Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Whatever speed would still allow you to stop safely in the distance you can see. There should be no exceptions to this, ever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TC1474 Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 Wrong to both answers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshRS Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 any, as he was comfortable at all of the speeds, all were legal and the conditions were appropriate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogof Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Wrong to both answers There is no correct speed.or60orThe correct speed is ANY speed that allows you to negotiate the bend safely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TC1474 Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 Wrong to both answers There is no correct speed.or60orThe correct speed is ANY speed that allows you to negotiate the bend safely No, No and guess what? No again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshRS Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 30! because that's the speed he thought was correct in the first place. he only increased his speed after he knew the corner!has to be it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana_leigh Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Any of them, but not a good idea to do a U turn on a bend?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bogof Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Actually, I'm going with Sperminator over at PH who said..."Hammer into the corner like you stole the bike/car, wait until the back breaks traction, put you foot down, bit of oppo lock, drive off with a grin like a Cheshire cat etched on your face." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TC1474 Posted August 19, 2009 Author Share Posted August 19, 2009 The correct speed is 30 MPH.When you first dealt with the bend, you assessed that speed as being correct based on what you could see. When you made subsequent trips through the bend, the rider now starts to use local knowledge and familiarity. You know the road conditions, the likelihood of vehicles pulling out of junctions, possible oncoming traffic that could affect your safety, and so this knowledge tempts or allows the rider to increase the speed because they become more dependant on having that knowledge rather than treating it as if they were riding through for the first time when you had no knowledge what so ever other than what you could see.In other words, first time you made a risk assessment, subsequent occasions the risk assessment played less significance in the decision making process.Now, I know I used a bend as an example, but now put it into an everyday context.For 364 days of the year you probably drive or ride along the same section of road on your way to work, and for the majority of the time everything remains a constant. Local schoolkids, the same people pullling off the petrol station forecourt, the same delivery vehicles doinng their rounds, so you get lulled into a false sense of security because your local knowledge tells you that nothing will change, or not by much.Then day 365 arrives, you get a mile down the road go around the first bend and there is the road being dug up which you were not expecting because it wasn't there yesterday. You have allowed your local knowledge to take over and dismissed doing any risk assessment.What should be happening is that roads you drive or ride daily should be assessed in exactly the same way as you did when you rode that bend for the first time.Now the reality is you probably won't go back and ride the bend multiple times at higher speeds (unless you are on some of the wonderfull continental roads ) and in reality you will go through bends quicker than 30 where conditions allow, but I used it as the example to emphasise how a judgement or assessment is made, the principles remain the same.Hence the reason the answer to the question is 30 MPH Now I have lit the blue touch paper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 (edited) As opposed to:You approach a new bend, and being unsure you drop it down to 30, paying attention to camber, how tight the corner is, road surface, ironworks etc. and any hidden junctions - AS WELL AS looking at the vanishing point to ensure you're in the safest position on the road.Upon your next approach, your knowledge of the corner is increased, meaning you can now devote more of your attention to what is going on around you as you have already assessed the camber, road surface, and junctions.I see the point of the statement, however it assumes that the rider will reduce their attention based on the fact that they are familiar with the road. Ultimately "switch off". Instead (for some people) their available attention is increased as they have already assessed parts of the situation previously.If I rode every bend the way I did for the first time I would never improve. It's only by thinking "I can do that better" that the next time you are in the same situation/corner you add your previous experience and knowledge to the situation making you smoother or faster each time. We do this subconciously with everything we do. Edited August 19, 2009 by Anonymous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TC1474 Posted August 19, 2009 Author Share Posted August 19, 2009 I see the point of the statement, however it assumes that the rider will reduce their attention based on the fact that they are familiar with the road. Ultimately "switch off". Instead (for some people) their available attention is increased as they have already assessed parts of the situation previously. Which in many cases is exactly what happens. Assumptions are made based on their previous experience causing them to "switch off" rather than maintaining the level of concentration and carrying out continual risk assessments regardless of how many times that section of road has been covered.It is human nature, something we are all guilty of regardless of how much training we have done, which is why so many crashes happen within a few miles of home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Which in many cases is exactly what happens. Assumptions are made based on their previous experience causing them to "switch off" ... What happens in some people is they become complacent and assume things will have not changed from the time before. This is different to taking previous experience and applying it to a repeat task.Think about the way we ride/drive. The first time we rode/drove on our own. Compare that to now, and which do you think is the more competant driver/rider? As we repeat certain things they require less thought and become instinctive, which frees up our mind to focus on other things. For some people these "other things" are observation, position etc. which make them a better driver/rider. For others, the "other things" are what they're having to eat later, an argument, the nice ass in the shorts running up the road, or the lyrics to the music they're listening to.Like I said - I see the point, but I think it assumes people process the information in the same way - which they don't.I agree with the "continuous risk assessment" - but see that more in biking terms as "reading the environment around you and road you're on". Which everyone is guilting of forgetting every now-and-then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TC1474 Posted August 19, 2009 Author Share Posted August 19, 2009 What your actually saying is that people become lazy behind the wheel or in the saddle,. Totally agree, which if you read through again is what I have intimated at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 What your actually saying is that some people become lazy behind the wheel or in the saddle,. Totally agree, which if you read through again is what I have intimated at. That's what I'm saying. At the same time though - local knowledge is a good thing for many people as it allows them to focus on the road, and spot changes or things "out of the norm" quickly.Those who switch off - please use the bus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 this is why most accidents happen within a short distance of home or the office, we all become accustomed to the norm, and forget about the "what if..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiffmasterII Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 neither. he should've kept going higher, he loses man points for not exceeding the speed limit on a good corner. I agree with this, total loss of respect and man points Im afraid! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny-B- Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Correct speed was 30 then 40 then 50 then 60 ... Question doesnt say whats the speed limit (cos thats 60 as stated earlier) ... no ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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