Fozzie Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 I bought it for reliability Now usually I would have just thought "dead battery" but this coincided with something that confused me.I went out on a 50 mile ride, bike is fine but I need some petrol by the end of it as I havent filled it in over a week. Pull in, top up, pay, go back out and put the ignition on. I notice my time is still an hour out and change it taking 20-30 seconds. Hit the starter and dead... I hear it try to turn over but it just cant.So I bump it and ride home 20 miles away, in that time I checked to see if it was the rec/reg but the lights consistently remained bright, didnt miss a beat.I get home and turn it off, then 30 seconds later fire it back up again and it starts. I then leave it for 10 minutes off and read my Haynes manual on it but it doesnt actually have an insert in the troubleshooting section to deal with this precise problem.Turn on the ignition, leave it 10 seconds, hit the starter and dead. Now here is the confusing part. When I just leave it, its electrics and FI all fire up fine, the light isnt dimming at all so Im now wondering if rather than the battery it is the starter motor.Or is it just battery as this is the first this has happened to me personally Oh and next time... Im buying Yamaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 maybe you left it on an optimate..... your battery night be taking a charge but not holding enough so that the 10 seconds of wait and the drain from the headlight might just be enough to stop it starting battery could have dropped a cell or two Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rennie Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 I would guess it's the battery!to make sure you need a voltmeterand maybe even a discharge tester! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzie Posted November 6, 2011 Author Share Posted November 6, 2011 I left it on the optimate over night when its cold and it works fine the following day...Rang my dad who basically said the reason the electrics still work but the engine struggles to start if at all is because the battery has just reached that point now where it can run the bikes electrics and sustain it while it runs. But trying to spin up the starter motor is a big no no...So I ordered a new gel battery for it (apparently gel is better) and I will see how I get on with that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 When you say you can hear the starter do you mean you can hear it spinning or just clicking?If the starter is spinning but it is not turning the engine over it could be the bendix is sticking or the sprag clutch is worn.....if so it'll be a case of removing the starter and cleaning the bendix if it has one or checking the sprag clutch....If the starter is just clicking it could be the connection to the starter, earth connection somewhere or possibly a dead winding on the starter itself.Have you tried jumping it from another battery/car when it doesn't start? That'll prove if it's the battery or not. If between attempts to start the bike you haven't charged the battery and sometimes it'll start and other times not that would point to loose connection somewhere, dead winding on starter, sticking bendix, worn sprag clutch, etc rather than a dodgy battery...Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzie Posted November 6, 2011 Author Share Posted November 6, 2011 I could hear the starter try and turn over the engine is what I meant!It would turn over once veeeery slowly and then just cut out and we would hear very rapid clicking from the solenoid I was thinking of dismantling the starter motor anyway and just having a look to make sure all of its components are still in spec. I hope they are as they are bloody expensive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 If the starter was engaging and trying to turn the engine it would point to a problem with either the power from the battery (most likely) or a loose or dirty connection from the battery to the starter (not as likely, but still possible).Try jumping it from another source to confirm if it's the battery. If jumping it makes no difference...then you are more likely to be looking at a connection issue....whereas if jumping it works every time, then you've got a duff battery.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 i really doubt its the starter fozzie i would try and make it do it again then attach some jump leads to the battery from a car not running though and hit the starter if it turns over and starts i would put money on the battery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzie Posted November 6, 2011 Author Share Posted November 6, 2011 Disconnected battery, attached spare battery of the same rating that id connected up about 2 hours ago to the charger. Left the ignition and lights on for a full minute to get rid of the surface charge that lurks immediately after charging and to let it run down a bit. It started easily.So like I said, Gel battery on its way but thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 excellent you wont go wrong with a gel battery either i use one in my car and been a diesel it needs all the juice i can get and this battery was stood a year with no charge before i put it in my car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TC Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 That sounds like the rectifier for me fozzie.It was excatly the same syptoms i had when mine went.To check (not telling you to suck eggs)Start the bike check the battery with your voltmeter see whats being put inTake the bike for a blast to get the rectifier hot as quickly as possible check the battery again with the engine still running and see what is being put in. If the voltage has dropped by quite abit its the rectifier.Just putting a new battery on will clear the problem until that battery gets fried. Hopefully the battery might not need replacing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin the Bear Posted November 6, 2011 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Could well be loose battery terminals, which are cured when you replace the battery, thus turning a free repair into a dear one. I speak from experience. Could also be a loose earth strap earth strap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzie Posted November 7, 2011 Author Share Posted November 7, 2011 I know the reg/rec is an issue with these Hondas, Im hoping that at only 4 years old and 11,000 miles young it hasnt gone just yet.I'll try it with the voltmeter before and after a long ride but I thought if the reg/reg had gone the lights would be failing as I rode if it was undercharging it or the battery would be very hot and boil if it was overcharging it? Neither have happened yet but I am all ears if there is a more reliable rec/reg for this bike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Strange Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Take the bike for a blast to get the rectifier hot as quickly as possible check the battery again with the engine still running and see what is being put in. If the voltage has dropped by quite abit its the rectifier. Or the stator is over volting & killing the rectifier which then kills the battery. Replace the rectifier & a few hundred miles down the road the same thing happens......You need to check the resistance of the stator first, usually three wires & three pins on the plug. Put the voltmeter into ohms (lowest setting on mine), check between any two of the three wires (you will need to check all of them obviously, outer two then middle + left, middle + right). I don't know the figures for this model unfortunately, i don't have a manual!. The old F3 bike was 0.1-1.0 ohm @ 20c.Absolutely no continuity between the pins & ground. If there is, then the windings are shorting on the casing somewhere, which is bad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzie Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 If the stator has gone then Im selling it The stator going is worst case scenario. Also the voltage readings came back fine, the rec/reg is charging normally so that rules out the possibility of the stator I hope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Strange Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) the rec/reg is charging normally so that rules out the possibility of the stator I hope Nope, it can compensate for a dodgy stator, the clue is in the name of the component .You can check the output voltage of the stator but I'm not 100% certain how to do that on you bike without looking at it first, plus it can be quite dangerous as the voltages can go pretty high!.It should be a matter of performing the same kind of test as the resistance test, but with the bike running & the multimeter set to volts, my bike is around 20-70v.P.S.Have you checked your battery or the connections?. An easy way to check basic battery connections is to put the multimeter probes first directly on the battery posts, read battery voltage e.g. 12.8V. then put the probes on the respective +/- battery lead connectors, you should get +12.6V. Any lower & your terminals need cleaning. Alternative & the best way is to measure voltage loss (not drop) when the ignition is on. Electricity flows the path of least resistance, right?. If it's flowing correctly your multimeter should not show a reading when carrying out this test, if it does then you have a problem!. This is one of the best & most helpful tests to find high resistances, it 's brilliant because it shows you exactly how much voltage you are losing to resistance.Put positive probe on battery post, negative probe on the positive lead connector (yes... that is right!). The result should be 0-0.2V. Negative is negative probe on negative post, positive probe on negative lead connector. Again 0-0.2V max.To check your wiring: Positive leadIgnition on, place positive probe on battery post (not the lead connection) & the negative probe on the first 'break' in the wire, usually the 'in' side of the main fuse. Reading should be 0-0.2V, any more and you have either crusty connection or high resistance in the + wireNegative leadAgain, ignition on but this time negative probe on negative post, positive probe on the nut (not the ring terminal) that bolts the lead to the frame/engine/gearbox/whatever it's actually attached to - usually one of those . Again 0-0.2V or less****further to the above****You might have to 'scratch' your multimeter probes on the connectors, battery posts etc to get a good reading Edited November 8, 2011 by Matt Strange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzie Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 the rec/reg is charging normally so that rules out the possibility of the stator I hope nope, it can compensate for a dodgy stator, the clue is in the name of the component . Ah but if it compensates, before, during and after a ride and is charging normally. Why did the battery then fail to start up if the reg/rec is working normally albeit compensating? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Strange Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Ah but if it compensates, before, during and after a ride and is charging normally. Why did the battery then fail to start up if the reg/rec is working normally albeit compensating?Well, the reg/rec might be in the process of going wrong, but it's the stator that's causing the actual problem with it. Then the reg/rec, in the process of going wrong due to the stator, is doing the battery over!. You need to work back to the start of the chain...You need to:Check connectionsCheck battery (leak/load tests)Check stator/alternatorCheck reg/rec(in that order) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzie Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 I'll put the battery in as that seems most likely first and see what happens It's been struggling more and more over the last several weeks and it wasnt very strong before that. It just looks like battery degredation and the time they last matches up.With the rec/reg reading normal consistently before I set off on rides, and after when its scolding hot it wouldnt add up why the battery still fails after this point if its supposedly been charging steadily.All connections are sound, the battery is screwed in correctly etc as I had all fairings off the bike recently and replaced the tail light and indicators with LED versions and tidied it up then as I noticed it was starting to struggle. The LED kit theoretically puts a lot less strain on it.Like I said, we'll see what happens. If it weakens in the same pattern or dies on me I will then look into the alternator and replace the lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Strange Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Easy way to load test is if you pull the fuel pump fuse & crank the bike for 10 secs with the multimeter attached to the battery, it shouldn't go below 9.5V. Wiring must be good though because bad connection will have an effect on the test!!. A resistance as little as 1 ohm will take around 1v of cranking voltage away from the battery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzie Posted November 11, 2011 Author Share Posted November 11, 2011 New gel battery in, for a start the battery on this bike is tiny... No wonder it lasted just 4 years.It turns over so much quicker and easier now, and i took it for a long ride and everything is normal so Im confident it was just a consumable that came to the end of its use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin the Bear Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 4 years ain't bad for a battery of any sort. Glad it's sorted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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