Who are you going to vote for?

[Mr Fro]

Ollie - you and I are from the same "everyone must go to university" generation. In my opinion, this hugely devalued the degree - I know people who went to uni and studied "subjects" such as golf management. We all need a qualification like that don't we...

The upshot of this university sausage machine is a bunch of people with large debts who see themselves above everyday, normal jobs just because they managed to scraped a Dame Thora. So many people I knew from school did some wanky, nothing degree and ended up realising too late that their dream job with a massive salary just won't materialise from nowhere so ended up making cold calls in a Saga call centre.*

My good friend Blair sold us all a dream in the 90's (which was basically a buffed up version of the 80's, just without the shoulder pads) which had little chance of becoming reality - apparently we were all going to be graduates on loads of cash - if only someone had said "Ay-up Tone, who's going to do the shit jobs?"...

My finger of blame also wags at Maggie for the right to buy nonsense, that totally boned us too. It raised a few bob at the time but has royally shafted us now when there are bugger all places to live and the prices are through the roof because what used to be council houses/flats are now in the hands of private landlords who charge massively inflated rental, draining the coffers and leaving many people on the bread line.

I'm going to stop now before I start foaming at the mouth.

*This is a generalisation and may not necessarily reflect your experience.

[Grumpy Old Git]

Well said that man!

And to another earlier post - You SHOULD vote for who you wish regardless of the fact that they do not have a 'cat in hells' chance of getting in. The vote count gives the 'winner' something to think about and, if he/she doen't, then the local press can 'challenge' his work downstream.

Don't forget - The Tories 'safe seat' recently fell to the looney right UKIP (albeit he was a 'transferee').

I do however like the idea that we should be able to vote for Guy Martin - At least if he was elected there would be some fun to be had!

[RantMachine]

Nicely summed up, Fro. And I'm always in favour of a foaming-at-the-mouth rant, so please don't stop on my account

And it's true, I know of a few people who hold a degree and feel that they shouldn't be obliged to work in any sector besides the one they are educated in, and stay on the dole until such a job comes up (hint: it never does because nobody wants to take on someone who has been unemployed for the 7 years since graduating). In my mind, they're the ones that really give graduates a bad name and show the flaws in the system. And yes, totally know what you mean about the university dream. My parents both have doctorates backed up by a couple of degrees and a masters each - going to uni just seemed like the done thing for me and my brother, so we didn't think twice when the time came. Funny thing is, I did the arts degree and he did a 'proper subject'... and I've got the steady job in my field and he's on the run from the police somewhere on the continent Shame there isn't an easy way to test work ethic and attitude before letting people get a student loan.

I'm pretty much at peace with the whole "never going to be able to buy a house" thing. As long as I manage to buy a double garage one day, I can live with having to rent a house nearby. Or just sticking a futon in the garage Right now I'd just like to find a place with low enough rent that I can still afford to fund my motorcycle habit! Cambridge isn't a cheap place...

[Fozzie]

I do however like the idea that we should be able to vote for Guy Martin - At least if he was elected there would be some fun to be had!

 

Can you imagine his policies!

*read in a Grimsby accent nearly too fast to comprehend*

1. Try or have a bike, it will be top stuff, TOP stuff, getting all the lads and lasses on 2 wheels, probably can get some more road circuits in there and it will be spot on, absolutely spot on. I don't care for anything else, people can sort it out, and to be honest will probably be happier for it. eh?

On point, I grew up under the labour government, was taught from a young age "tony blair is an idiot". One thing that always got me was, when I tried out university, I was put off by the sheer amount of courses. Loads of people drinking, partying, socialising, and occasionally having to sit through a lecture on "pet management". I felt I'd been so disillusioned that after 6 months I stopped turning up... I turned up to the exams, and passed it easily so it summed up what I thought about uni. I was doing business and marketing.

I got out early, imagine all the other people who got out and went into jobs they didn't intend? It's fortunate that after 20-25 years if you haven't paid off the student loan, it's written off... But chances are by this point you've paid way more than the original loan. The best way for uni now is to rely on family to pay you through uni so you have the bear minimum expenditure... Some get round this by working through the whole of uni.

So while I don't agree with the tuition fees going up, at least the silver lining is, education will only be accessible to those who can either afford it, or are academically good enough to gain grants for it.

I went into an apprenticeship, leaving home and taking a job in London... I think these need to be cultivated more as I ended up back at uni, doing a course designed for my role, which then boosted my role when I completed it. And unfortunately tories aren't as fond of apprenticeships as Labour.

But the biggest thing that annoys me, is how flexible the parties have been. We no longer have a firm left, and firm right political group. We have *in my view* a bunch of parties, that all lurk around what was once a very lib dem style now. I can't say the tories are a right wing group anymore, especially with UKIP in the background gaining popularity.

And I can't say labour is a left wing group much anymore, despite their mansion tax hitting the rich, they are protecting the main bulk of the population, which is mostly middle class, no longer the party for the working class man it seems.

So it's all a pile of shite really! Voting, even for a group that won't win will damage the amount the winner gets in by. It sends a clearer message to me. Like with facebook likes, politicians quantify how much they are liked by actual voters, non-voters are treated as non-existent or not bothered of the outcome.

[RantMachine]

So while I don't agree with the tuition fees going up, at least the silver lining is, education will only be accessible to those who can either afford it, or are academically good enough to gain grants for it.

 

In what possible way is that a silver lining!? Higher education either needs to be available to everyone, or available solely on academic merit! The fact that they make university education available to everyone is the only good thing about student loans!! Of course grants would be preferable, but those days are long gone.

And yeah, the three major parties are all pretty much stuck just to the right of the centre of the political scale these days. Green and UKIP seem to be slipping into the extreme left and right positions.

[Fozzie]

In what possible way is that a silver lining!? Higher education either needs to be available to everyone, or available solely on academic merit!

 

The latter part of that sentence tallies with the latter part of mine, it's restricted to those who have academic merit or those with stupid money. It's not ideal by any means, the silver lining is more that university will become more of a serious decision. And as such, you won't get as many people going as in my year, most went as they didn't know what else to do!

*On that note, schools REALLY need to get their act together there and offer students more options than just uni. As getting a job was seen as a "you're doing that on your own" thing.

In an ideal situation I would have university open to those with academic merit.

Those who aren't academic should ideally have apprenticeships like I had, that way they end up at the same finish line.

But yeah, it's a thin silver lining I think. Hopefully more people will now push for apprenticeship schemes and there has been some movement from the government about boosting them.

After all, at Englands height of manufacturing dominance/excellence, apprenticeships were what most people did. Gave people a trade, and there was more pride in their work as an apprenticeship allows you to see yourself grow in your chosen field.

I'm being airy fairy, hoping for something that likely will never happen... But I can hope

[RantMachine]

Yeah, I agree that apprenticeships need a much bigger push. And perhaps the government need to play a little more of a part in ensuring that companies don't abuse the hell out of their apprentices and/or interns, too.

[Guest]

If you want a decent degree that doesn't leave you in debt until middle age.. apply for a place in Germany. who have just abolished tuition fees completely across the entire country. obviously for most who do something like that the temptation will be to stay there and contribute to their economy. Seems to me, you'll be mad not to.

The difference between there and here is they think longterm. whereas here the politicians are only interested in keeping their jobs. sod the rest of the country. given all the recent announcements on capital spending and yesterdays tax break for house buyers... you'd never think there was an election approaching. would you.

i think next years election is going to be fascinating. resulting in another coalition. I doubt very much the raft of sweeteners given out or promised over this past month will have much effect. After all.. theres a whole generation coming up who even if they're professionals.. with decent incomes. cannot afford to buy a house. how can they? when they're already paying extortionate rents and have very little spare to save for the deposit.

[Joeman]

well i had a great time at uni, partied way harder than i worked, and spent all summer holidays doing whatever temp jobs i could get to pay off the overdraft. I graduated in '98 with three years worth of loans and a few grand in overdraft (no tuition fees back then)

There were no jobs near home, so i just moved to where the work was, and paid off the loans pretty quickly with the salary from my first job - simple.

The big thing for me was that i was prepared to move to where the work was and live in a shared house with a bunch of strangers.

i wasn't trying to get work close to home as i knew it simply didnt exist, and that's one of the big problems with the UK. you see so many people stuck in ghost towns, insisting they have their own house (with spare bedrooms), spending their dole money down the pub and harping back to the "good old day" when there were jobs.... well guess what, there are loads of jobs out there if you're prepared to go and find them, and why should you have your own house? why cant you share? but UK people just dont seem to be able to move more than a couple of streets from their mums, and certainly wont entertain the idea of shared accommodation....

Everyone moans about the immigrants, but at least they have the common sense to realise there's no jobs in their own country, so they move to where the jobs are - England, and they are quite happy to share a house....

As for voting, i dont bother. Life's OK for me at the moment, and i have nothing really to blame the government for, but at the point something changes that upsets my little bubble, i'll have no hesitation in moving to some other country. Selfish? maybe, but not as selfish as the politicians people are voting into power...

[RantMachine]

It's not just about willingness to compromise, though - I never moved back home after uni, and I live quite happily in a shared house, but I still can't afford to even think about paying off my student loan. It's not about whether you have a job in the field of your degree or not, or where and how you choose to live, or anything like that - these days it just boils down to which field you're trained in. Case in point, downstairs in the IT support department they have several people who didn't study anything remotely to do with computers, and all their training is on-the-job stuff. Up here in the Lab, I have a degree in my field, without which I wouldn't have the skills and knowledge to do my job. Guess who gets paid 250% more? Pay inequality is a bitch

[Fozzie]

Guess who gets paid 250% more? Pay inequality is a bitch

 

To go for a second. Only thing I can suggest is, "play the game" is what I was told. My qualifications are split between electrical and mechanical engineering. Obviously there are many jobs in the field you will have studied, see if there's a way out, and use your experience in the current field to aid you. From the beginning of your time on the forum here you were a manager in Jessops (I think) and now in photographic editing. So you have managerial and sheer intellectual qualities in your field. The right CV will change your situation if it gets in with the right employer.

This is why I only rented a room for a while in London, I could jump and leave with a months notice.

Back on topic...

Has anyone spotted a trend, UKIP say they will do something, Tories/Labour water it down and sell it as their own idea to the public.

It's almost like watching the apprentice... They bullshit, make excuses, give golden plans for the future. And every 4 years we go for the one who has the most to lose, and 3 years on from that we gauge what they didn't deliver. I think it's fair to say the people still have the power.

[Joeman]

Case in point, downstairs in the IT support department they have several people who didn't study anything remotely to do with computers, and all their training is on-the-job stuff.

yep, in my line of work (IT consultant) i see them all the time. the "learn direct" crowd i call them. They've spent a week on some crappy IT course and then think they are computer gurus, and the clueless manages put them into a position of responsibility, whereas in reality they barely know one side of the keyboard from the other.

Having said that, i also work with Computer Science undergrads on their placement year between 2nd and third years... they barely know any actual computer science either - i think the current computer science degree course is useless. its not Science, its how to copy and paste a web page together and build a basic android app! And when i've pointed this out to a number of them, their little faces drop to the floor when i remind them of how much the degree is costing them and they are not learning any real world skills..... (i'm cruel i know)

[RantMachine]

To go for a second. Only thing I can suggest is, "play the game" is what I was told.

 

Not the point! There is something fundamentally wrong with a system where people have to go out of their way to prove their worth in order to be paid as much as people with the same level of qualification (or less) in a different skillset that is no less or more valuable to the company employing them.

 

yep, in my line of work (IT consultant) i see them all the time. the "learn direct" crowd i call them. They've spent a week on some crappy IT course and then think they are computer gurus, and the clueless manages put them into a position of responsibility, whereas in reality they barely know one side of the keyboard from the other.

 

We seem to get through a fair few of them, it takes a couple of months for anyone to realise how crap they are then they're out the door. I'd laugh, were it not for the fact that in those two months they earn what I do in half a year

[Grumpy Old Git]

I can take a keyboard apart and (usually) put it all back together again - Can I have a highly paid job please?