EU... in or out

[Fozzie]

*phew* A good, reasoned reply. Thank you Joeman.

I agree about the lazy brits. It forms the basis of my "In" argument.

But it also supports the "out" as we need to fix that situation, not cover it up, and for that we have to cut the welfare for those able to work but refuse, but unfortunately some argue it's a human right and it has to be put through the EU, which will never agree to it I fear.

I still disagree over the housing. With more net migration there is more of a housing shortage surely? The figures of net migration are huge and regardless of sharing, they have to go somewhere. Plus a big gripe of mine is that immigrants are taken advantage of based on their cooperation. They will live together in big groups as you mention, often causing greedy land lords to put the price per head up because they can. This then has a knock on effect. But this is my socialist side getting worked up at the lack of ability to "live" in London.

I still feel the open doors policy helped enable this as it compounded an already bad issue. From some perspectives even allowing it to spiral off like a firework.

Will leave it there for now, and try out my "In" reasons.

A recent poll suggests 11% of the public have no idea which way to vote and I'm one of them. I'm only leaning on "out" on the basis I'd vote "in" if we were out to try out the untested method of running things.

Also Joeman, I'm not inferring you in my points about landlords in case that thought strays in. You're legally entitled to do what you do, and so long as you're not cramming people in there and charging a fortune I have no issue

[eastanglianbiker]

will out be that bad a choice after all its about leaving the EU but we would stay in the common market the same as we were before joining europe.............i am not sure which way to vote yet

[Guest]

The root cause is that the Brits were too lazy to do the jobs themselves

 

I don't honestly believe you posted this. How can use such a broad brush to paint all brits as workshy. I have never been on the dole in all my life mate. I have worked to keep a roof over my head, and people saying this piss me off no end. Lots of Brits have lost their jobs due to immigrants being willing to work for shit wages. How much do you think the poor twats who work in hand car washes get? Would you Fruit pick for a shit wage?

This has as much to do with the masses wanting cheap stuff and the multinationals driving everyones prices down so the farmers can't pay decent wages. But then you get an influx of people who are willing to house share and work for shit wages and then you wonder why the Brits can't get or want to work. It is also the fault of our government to give work credits if you earn shit money. So we now have the situation where outsiders come here to work for shit wages so we then make the amount up with working tax credits and then they claim for their kids who don't even live in this country. We are directly helping the large businesses to make more money by handing out tax credits.

The whole system is at fault. But if we didn't have this open border and free labour EU we would have been a lot better off as we wouldn't have had a mass influx of people legally allowed to work here and claim benifits they shouldn't have.

But the EU is not what we joined many years ago Its turned into this bloated self serving entity which is trying to make one superstate. We have no say in what goes on over there. See the fisaco of camerons last couple of weeks. Even if he had got us a brilliant deal there is nothing to stop them ignoring everything he had negotiated and voting against what he achieved after we had a referendem.

[Valko]

That song sums up the whole debate nicely:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBi-KXc0CRk

I think I've changed my mind "Leave" is the way to go

[Invisible_Man]

Hi,

Im voting 'out'.

It's not just housing. Schooling and the entire health care system has suffered. Too many people and not enough money has knackered the infrastructure.

IM

[Joeman]

I agree about the lazy brits. It forms the basis of my "In" argument.

But it also supports the "out" as we need to fix that situation, not cover it up, and for that we have to cut the welfare for those able to work but refuse, but unfortunately some argue it's a human right and it has to be put through the EU, which will never agree to it I fear.

Booting out the migrants wont fix the issue, we'll be left with lazy brits moaning about the state of the country since the migrants left and there's nobody left to do any actual work!!

 

I still disagree over the housing. With more net migration there is more of a housing shortage surely? The figures of net migration are huge and regardless of sharing, they have to go somewhere.

Migration only exists where demand for jobs exists. take us back to the lazy brits and useless UK.Gov policy on welfare.

 

Plus a big gripe of mine is that immigrants are taken advantage of based on their cooperation. They will live together in big groups as you mention, often causing greedy land lords to put the price per head up because they can. This then has a knock on effect. But this is my socialist side getting worked up at the lack of ability to "live" in London.

yes there is corruption, but the thing is, they often don't see it the same way. it only looks like they are being taken advantage off because you are looking with British eyes that can't comprehend sharing a house!

I used to work with an Indian outsourcing company in London. The company used to bring in skilled labour from India, put them up in BUNK BEDS!!, and pay them a small fraction of the day rate they charged the client. To a British person the conditions seems appalling, but when you spoke to the indian guys, they loved it! They were getting free board in a great city, with a great job and earning (to them) loads of money to send home to their families. Living so close to each other was an advantage when so far away from their home. they cooked for each other, shared the cleaning, and worked as a tight knit family.... you would NEVER see brits do that, and if they did, they would be moaning about it all the time.

 

I still feel the open doors policy helped enable this as it compounded an already bad issue. From some perspectives even allowing it to spiral off like a firework.

As did EasyJet and Ryanair by making flights to the UK cheap enough for eastern europeans to afford!

 

Also Joeman, I'm not inferring you in my points about landlords in case that thought strays in. You're legally entitled to do what you do, and so long as you're not cramming people in there and charging a fortune I have no issue

No worries, i'm only a landlord because property was a good investment and the UK has one of the worst state pensions in the whole of Europe - a problem caused by UK politicians, not Europe!

I don't exploit my tenants - far from it - i let them get away with murder, but new tax laws make property not such a good investment for individuals so thanks to the UK.Gov i might find myself forced to sell my properties to some faceless corporation who does screw over the tenants at every opportunity to increase profits for the shareholders. Bad news for me and the tenants. Thanks UK.GOV!!

[Guest]

I will be voting to stay in, however I dont think it will make the slightest difference to the eventual outcome. we will eventually leave.

the propaganda has worked.

This graph I think is just one of many that shows just how well the propaganda has worked, re. in particular EU migrants - "taking our jobs".

http://i.imgur.com/5WBPfXC.png

[Phooey]

I will vote!

I'm undecided! my gut says out

but I don't know enough about the consequences

 

Exactly my position. And somehow I don't think that we will get any politician telling us the truth.

[RantMachine]

My overall feeling on it is much the same as Shorty says; I'll vote in, but even if we do stay in, I figure it's only a matter of time. The EU will continue to be a scapegoat of choice, and sooner or later we'll burn our bridges.

Big question is, who will we blame all our problems on after that??

My money is on Bandit owners

 

A recent poll suggests 11% of the public have no idea which way to vote and I'm one of them. I'm only leaning on "out" on the basis I'd vote "in" if we were out to try out the untested method of running things.

I would argue that the 11% of the public who have no idea are better off just not voting, rather than voting without a reason or understanding! Imagine if you heard someone in a jury saying "well, we don't really know if he's guilty or not but we're going to say guilty just to see what difference him being in jail makes, because he's been free until now and that clearly didn't work out, regardless of whether he was to blame" - Doesn't sound quite right, does it?

Edited February 23, 2016 by RantMachine

[Joeman]

other option is to vote "Out" to see if things actually do improve. if they dont, then just jump ship and go live in mainland Europe!

My partner is from Luxembourg and she would love us to move there.

[RantMachine]

Joeman and Rantmachine, post "OUT" vote:

[fq-craigus]

At the minute im a 'in' vote but who knows when the time comes

[techno]

I'm definitely voting out, staying in to me personally is ludicrous.

I see absolutely no reason to be part of this debacle.

[Guest]

I won't be voting, never voted before, have never followed any such 'political' debates etc. So wouldn't know the consequences of voting in OR out, so think it's best I just be a null vote.

[Fozzie]

I would argue that the 11% of the public who have no idea are better off just not voting, rather than voting without a reason or understanding! Imagine if you heard someone in a jury saying "well, we don't really know if he's guilty or not but we're going to say guilty just to see what difference him being in jail makes, because he's been free until now and that clearly didn't work out, regardless of whether he was to blame" - Doesn't sound quite right, does it?

 

I like that analogy but if it was a case of deciding someones fate regarding jail, if there was equal evidence to support innocence/guilt how do you proceed?

I’d rather the analogy that this is like having a CBR250, liking it and disliking it in equal measure (currently the situation with the FZ), and there being a 50/50 split of people. One half telling me I’m better keeping the Honda, the other half telling me to go for a KLX250. Despite the risk I won’t like it, the CBR is tried and tested in my view, and now I want to test the theory that the KLX is better.

This method is also how I’ve had my best and worst bikes, but there’s never an indication of what will work until it is exposed to reality.

It’s not that I can’t make my own mind up, it’s just I can’t find a definitive fact for either side that pegs it above the other. So as Joeman says, my out vote would be to see if it was better… Failing that I’m off to Norway as Statoil have tried to hire me a few times.

I won't go into it any further as I've seen good points raised from both camps. Joeman has explored a major point I use for opting "in".

The search for a definitive decision continues!

[MarkW]

I like that analogy but if it was a case of deciding someones fate regarding jail, if there was equal evidence to support innocence/guilt how do you proceed?

That's easy - you vote 'not guilty'.

"Better that a hundred guilty men go free than a single innocent man be punished." Benjamin Franklin said that. Or it might have been Rumpole of the Bailey...

[Fozzie]

That's what I think too (Blackstone's formulation btw and Franklin did say it). But then if it was the case of a murderer, you would be viewed to have some responsibility if they killed again. Because people think emotionally a lot.

And emotional thinking has in my view clouded this whole debate on both sides!

[Glorian]

I think who ever made this thread failed big time by not using the title.

Are EU in or out?

[RantMachine]

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/slow_clap_citizen_kane.gif

[MarkW]

The blame falls squarely on workshy brits, and UK politicians who support them with UK specific welfare laws that makes it more appealing to stay on benefits than do an honest job.

"You vant Breeteesh verker? Drink tea? Scratch balls? Cost you five times as much moneys!"

[Throttled]

......

And the Scottish confuse me, out of the UK but in Europe? Both carry the same accusation of imposing laws not relevant to their land. I don't get that...

 

Neither did I.

[Guest]

The blame falls squarely on workshy brits, and UK politicians who support them with UK specific welfare laws that makes it more appealing to stay on benefits than do an honest job.

"You vant Breeteesh verker? Drink tea? Scratch balls? Cost you five times as much moneys!"

 

http://i.imgur.com/TY4O52y.jpg

[Joe85]

In. I like the ECHR. I also work at a companies European HQ which would probably up sticks if we pulled out.

[JRH]

ECHR strange group. See below.

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2015/dec ... t-tribunal

When I'm on holiday I get a flat rate. What I was paid before or after does not influence holiday pay. Think that is the same most places.

[Glorian]

The blame falls squarely on workshy brits, and UK politicians who support them with UK specific welfare laws that makes it more appealing to stay on benefits than do an honest job.

"You vant Breeteesh verker? Drink tea? Scratch balls? Cost you five times as much moneys!"

 

http://i.imgur.com/TY4O52y.jpg

 

As an IT guy i find this offensive.

I don't socialise..