EU... in or out

[RantMachine]

http://i.imgur.com/TY4O52y.jpg

 

As an IT guy i find this offensive.

I don't socialise..

 

That's an IT manager

The IT guy is the one they're burying

[Throttled]

Many no voters say we need out to regain sovereignty. But when we join with other countries we have to compromise and abide by that organisations rules. We do it without worrying when it comes to the United Nations, the World Bank, the IMF. The EU only one of a number of European agreements, so leaving the EU does not mean leaving Europe;

There is the EEA. The European Economic Area includes non EU countries, the main one being Norway. It legislates on the free movement of goods, persons, services and capital. So no trade or work barriers. If the UK leaves the EU, it may want to stay in the EEA and get the benefits which we do enjoy of free movement, but that means abiding by EEA rules.

I would also suggest we want to stay in the EU Customs Union so no there are no customs duties when we trade with other member countries. Or do out voters want duties imposed on our goods?

As for the no voter claims about immigration, we are already not in the Schengen Area and we still have border controls. Hence with the recent immigration crisis Germany, Austria and Sweden in particular had to reintroduce border controls. We already had them (plus a big moat round the country which makes us the hardest country to enter anyway.)

We also stayed out of the Euro Zone.

What about the Council of Europe? Will we leave that? Stay in it? Will we get a referendum on that? How many know what it even does!!!!!

If you think there is a particular reason for leaving the EU, it is worthwhile checking to see if the EU is actually the international organisation responsible for that reason. You may be wanting out of the wrong organisation.

[Glorian]

http://i.imgur.com/TY4O52y.jpg

 

As an IT guy i find this offensive.

I don't socialise..

 

That's an IT manager

The IT guy is the one they're burying

 

It's ok i poured water on the server before they got me

[Throttled]

You know how some like to complain about foreigners claiming benefits in the UK?

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu

"Unemployed Britons in Europe are drawing much more in benefits and allowances in the wealthier EU countries than their nationals are claiming in the UK, despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments.

At least 30,000 British nationals are claiming unemployment benefit in countries around the EU, research by the Guardian has found, based on responses from 23 of the 27 other EU countries.

The research shows more than four times as many Britons obtain unemployment benefits in Germany as Germans do in the UK, while the number of jobless Britons receiving benefits in Ireland exceeds their Irish counterparts in the UK by a rate of five to one.

There are not only far more Britons drawing benefits in these countries than vice versa, but frequently the benefits elsewhere in Europe are much more generous than in the UK. A Briton in France receives more than three times as much as a jobless French person in the UK."

I know someone who potters about the UK doing sweet FA and he can afford to because of the unemployment benefits he receives from Switzerland, which is 70% of his working wage. He has a residence permit and worked there as a nurse. Hopefully this referendum will wake people up to the propaganda that the likes of UKIP pump out to make it sound like we are top dog and Europe feeds off us.

[Mr Fro]

The blame falls squarely on workshy brits, and UK politicians who support them with UK specific welfare laws that makes it more appealing to stay on benefits than do an honest job - it's nothing to do with Europe.

*Bangs on desk* Hear, hear!

I don't know how many people on here have spent time with the terminally unemployed but to generalise rather broadly; the most often touted reason for not bothering to have a job is "the immigrants took our jobs" but when asked if they would clean a car or a bog they tend to wrinkle up their nose because that job "isn't good enough" for them. It's just too easy to sit on your arse watching Jeremy Vile rather than going out and grafting. Think of all the millennials with dogshit degrees who won't entertain a job at the bottom of the ladder because they think they deserve to go straight in at £30k. Again, these people end up on the sofa doing nothing so the enterprising immigrant nips in and quite rightly grabs the job.

How many people have seen that new benefits programme on the TV? One lot have spunked most of their £26k on utter shite in the space of 3 weeks, another after clearing out his garage claimed "This is the hardest work I've done in my life" and the final one is all mouth and no trousers about getting a job - bangs on about getting a job but when it comes to it...

Anyway, back to the EU. I'd like some more facts and evidence before I decide. Imports and exports will likely become more expensive. Tax will probably go up a bit in some shape or other and things will almost certainly get worse before they get better if we leave. However, many things should be simplified - construction will be quicker and cheaper for one as government construction will presumably no longer have to go through the rigmarole of EU tendering and all that sort of silly stuff.

If we stay... Well we'll probably just trundle along as usual and I think that's the issue. People don't like change. I'm kind of in the "let's give it a whirl" camp but do I want to take the chance that the wheels will come off (worse than they will if we stay in)? There's also a bit of stigma with voting out that one will get bundled in with the small minded, bigoted "send 'em all back" brigade.

I think it would be a much easier decision to make if the politicians made a realistic plan for both scenarios, published it and stuck to the bloody thing for once.

[Stu]

When I worked in a factory I was a shift supervisor and I had to deal with the agency staff

One of the stipulations when I rang them was I don't want any English unless they have a wife kids and a mortgage!

99% of the time they sent a foreigner

The reason for this request was if I ever got any English they would not do the job and would just mess about requiring keeping an eye on all the time taking up more resources

The foreign workers turned up on time everyday and did the job! and they bloody worked too!

So who's fault is it they have no work?

[Mr Fro]

Funny you should say that Stu - reminded me of the olden days when I worked in MOD kitchens (really shit job). The guys we had from Kosovo or wherever didn't bat an eyelid if I asked for a hand cleaning the nastiest gunk out of the bottom of fryer at the end of the season whereas the guys for the UK were one of the laziest bunch of idle layabouts I've met.

[Throttled]

We can always replace the 14,880 Polish people claiming benefits in the UK with the 11,222 UK people claiming benefits in Ireland. We can top that up with the 6,022 UK people claiming benefits in Germany.

[Stu]

Funny you should say that Stu - reminded me of the olden days when I worked in MOD kitchens (really shit job). The guys we had from Kosovo or wherever didn't bat an eyelid if I asked for a hand cleaning the nastiest gunk out of the bottom of fryer at the end of the season whereas the guys for the UK were one of the laziest bunch of idle layabouts I've met.

 

yeah it was a constant argument with the UK "workers"

I sent a fair few of them home in the past

[Joeman]

Funny you should say that Stu - reminded me of the olden days when I worked in MOD kitchens (really shit job). The guys we had from Kosovo or wherever didn't bat an eyelid if I asked for a hand cleaning the nastiest gunk out of the bottom of fryer at the end of the season whereas the guys for the UK were one of the laziest bunch of idle layabouts I've met.

In my industry I'm in the minority. Most financial IT teams I work with in London have a good mix of Indian, Chinese, French and Russians etc.. All hard working and very enthusiastic. The Brits tend to be the scumbag recruitment consultants.

[Fozzie]

minus the stupid.

I'm the minority in my office too. Best team I ever worked with.

Excessive amounts of file conversion which is why I'm on here throughout the day but one of them is learning other languages during those micro breaks.

We'd be in trouble without skilled workers from abroad.

Just it contributes to the problem I mention. The Brits that should be working just take up space, meaning others have to come in and take up even more space which I believe has helped push prices up in London.

It's partly why I disagree with the open borders as we are unsuited to it as a nation as it allows the lazy Brit non workers to continue being lazy, while also causing higher demand for property. It's a much bigger issue than just immigrants!

[RantMachine]

So... open borders allows an influx of hard working people who are willing to do the jobs that native Brits think they are "above" doing, and we should punish them for filling that hole in our infrastructure by kicking them out and not letting any more back in? Better hope that the willfully unemployed suddenly decide to step up to the plate! Because otherwise,we'd better hope that closing our borders and kicking out a huge chunk of the minimum wage workers destabilises the bottom end of our economy to such an extent that the welfare state collapses completely and the scroungers are forced to get jobs

Going on your logic, wouldn't it be more fair to start deporting workshy Brits?

Ooh, even better we could build workhouses and they could live in those!

[Fozzie]

No, I'd only be repeating myself to explain why.

They filled a hole true, but it was a solution that fixed a symptom and not work on a cure. So it has had side effects.

I'd not undo what open borders has done so far, which I think you assume I want? I'd limit it going forward however, and focus on getting the workshy into work even if it requires targeting their benefits. Then as the housing market caught up to demand you could grow the economy more evenly by not allowing demand to soar.

Remember the tories use London house prices to make their books look better than they are. Another reason why I disagree with it as it helps them cover up the reality our economy is in!

[Mr Fro]

...wouldn't it be more fair to start deporting workshy Brits?

Has anyone seen Waterworld? You know, that terrible film with Kevin Costner. The baddie had an old oil tanker for him and his cronies. A similar thing could be employed (ha!) to solve the idle layabout problem.

[RantMachine]

No, I'd only be repeating myself to explain why.

They filled a hole true, but it was a solution that fixed a symptom and not work on a cure. So it has had side effects.

I'd not undo what open borders has done so far, which I think you assume I want? I'd limit it going forward however, and focus on getting the workshy into work even if it requires targeting their benefits. Then as the housing market caught up to demand you could grow the economy more evenly by not allowing demand to soar.

Remember the tories use London house prices to make their books look better than they are. Another reason why I disagree with it as it helps them cover up the reality our economy is in!

 

But this thread isn't about your proposed hypothetical ideal solution, it's about a vote - and while your suggested solution might have the potential to make a positive change, the vote isn't "do we want to stay in the EU or leave and do what Fozzie thinks would be best" - and as I've stated already, granting 1.9 million amnesties overnight is not something that any world government does! And even if they did decide to, there is an unholy amount of diplomatic and legal work that comes with granting indefinite leave to remain, so processing 1.9 million guaranteed cases would take years... so hey, let's grant them all Visas while they wait... oh wait, that also takes ages and costs money. So that leaves options of... leave them in the country as effectively illegal immigrants, or boot them out and invite them back once the paperwork is done, hoping they want to return. Your "out" argument is based on your idealised version of how it would pan out, not on any fact or precedent

It's the voting equivalent of http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2015/6/2/lalala.gif

An "out" vote stands to have a huge impact on the lives of nearly two million people living in this country and another 1.5 million on the mainland, if you do cast your vote that way then please do it because you understand what you're voting for, not because you're interested to see how it might unfold or because you can think of a single scenario where it all works out fine for them...

[Glorian]

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTAyWDUwMg==/z/RdcAAOxyx-BSb7Q1/$(KGrHqNHJE!FJbw+EveyBSb7Q1M!!Q~~60_35.JPG

Anyone wanna borrow this?

[RantMachine]

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTAyWDUwMg==/z/RdcAAOxyx-BSb7Q1/$(KGrHqNHJE!FJbw+EveyBSb7Q1M!!Q~~60_35.JPG

Anyone wanna borrow this?

 

As Darth Vader once said, "It is too late for me, son"

[Ricky]

Only just realised you changed you avatar Ollie, it made me chuckle

Anyway I won't be voting, don't pay much attention to politics nor does it interest me

[RantMachine]

I do try

[Fozzie]

If my view is hypothesised surely your view that they'd all be booted is too?

Norway isn't in the EU yet is part of the schengen arena. So it allows free movement in order to trade.

But as its outside the EU it can negotiate a better position on what policies it follows.

So if we leave, the likelihood will be the UK will be part of the schengen agreement. If the EU didn't allow it they'd be breaching the human rights of millions so how unlikely is that?

The Schengen Agreement also operates a common visa policy.

So we can leave, but keep the agreement, just with the added degree of control nearly 50% of this country seem to want!

[Guest]

So if we leave, the likelihood will be the UK will be part of the schengen agreement.

 

I doubt it.. we were never a part of this to begin with and I reckon the idea of actually becoming a part would have the 'out' brigade falling to the floor and foaming at the mouth. Of all the aspect of the EU this is loathed most (or feared, rather), I reckon... even more than giving up the £.

Somehow, I doubt I will live to see the day where there is no passport control at the Chunnel... where my passport isn't taken from me and checked as I leave or enter the country. where getting onto the train to France is no different to getting on the Train to Edinburgh.

[Fozzie]

I'm just throwing it out there.

Rants theory is it will all go to shit and we'll frog march people onto a boat, told to go home

Whereas my theory is we will work it out based on the best interests of the country. And that the interests are to keep those in currently but put a bigger limit on anymore influx. A "work with what you've got" kind of thing as it's easiest.

Just to step over, I heard something that made me see the "in" vote as logical.

Chatting to the workshop bunch about it yesterday we are split down the middle, half of us are out, half of us want in. But a chap stood up and said

"A lot of the leaders who lead the charge on vote "out" are also people who believe the environment isn't harmed by coal/gas" - He then throws out names of those who we checked at the time and it appeared they were so optimistic, they are blind to issues like global warming.

Naturally he got pulled apart by the opposing squad but I was left thinking "Can I back these people? Even if I just want to test what happens".

I'm an *uber* green environment head. It's a deeply held view of mine. So I actually lost a big amount of faith in the "out" campaign yesterday. The EU supports green issues... Soooo... I'm now on a crash course with an "in" vote

[RantMachine]

If my view is hypothesised surely your view that they'd all be booted is too?

Norway isn't in the EU yet is part of the schengen arena. So it allows free movement in order to trade.

But as its outside the EU it can negotiate a better position on what policies it follows.

So if we leave, the likelihood will be the UK will be part of the schengen agreement. If the EU didn't allow it they'd be breaching the human rights of millions so how unlikely is that?

The Schengen Agreement also operates a common visa policy.

So we can leave, but keep the agreement, just with the added degree of control nearly 50% of this country seem to want!

No, because I am stating widespread precedent and supporting facts rather than sheer speculation! You're expressing your thoughts on how you would hope it would be done... and our government do not have a good track record for making major decisions in a way that people hoped they would

The Schengen Area was formed after we joined the EU. It's not even a question of whether or not the EU allow it, what makes you so sure that we would suddenly decide to backtrack and join it after leaving the EU? Can you see our politicians trying to explain to all of the "Out" voters that "yes, we're leaving the EU... but we're immediately going to ask to join this other thing that still lets people freely into our country". See Shorty's post, bang on the money. And one other really big thing... the Schengen Visa does not allow people to work in other Schengen countries. At most, it allows you to go on a business trip. Anything more requires a work visa or work permit, depending on the country you're visiting. So joining the Schengen area doesn't do anything to help the 1.9 million people from the mainland EU who are working in the UK, or the 1.6 million brits working elsewhere in the EU.

So the summarise:

So we can leave, but keep the agreement

We are NOT part of the agreement at present, our government would have to ask to join it.

just with the added degree of control nearly 50% of this country seem to want!

...and 1.9 million employed people living in the UK becoming unemployed homeless tourists overnight.

[Gin]

So if we leave, the likelihood will be the UK will be part of the schengen agreement. If the EU didn't allow it they'd be breaching the human rights of millions so how unlikely is that?

 

On what basis? Norway had agreements from the off with the EU to stay out but remain close, they didn't join then bail..

If we choose the leave, the EU is likely to go "Ok then, off you go.. Oh wait you still want some of the benefits that you had while with us? Hah.. That isn't how this works.."

The idea that They would be breaching human rights when they had no option in whether we stay or go is laughable!

It like choosing to leave a company but still wanting pension donations because you did your time, why should you miss out!

 

...but I was left thinking "Can I back these people? Even if I just want to test what happens".

I'm an *uber* green environment head. It's a deeply held view of mine. So I actually lost a big amount of faith in the "out" campaign yesterday. The EU supports green issues... Soooo... I'm now on a crash course with an "in" vote

 

I'm sorry.. Don't you work for an oil/gas company at the moment and have trained for, you last said, 10 years to be qualified in this field?

Also didn't you, only a page or so ago, mention how you would happily leave the UK to join another Large oil/gas firm in Europe.. ?

Fair enough being eco friendly but I genuinely don't understand how you can sway Soo much in one debate.. Specially when it includes one of your biggest life choices!

Edited February 25, 2016 by Gin

[RantMachine]

I'm just throwing it out there.

Rants theory is it will all go to shit and we'll frog march people onto a boat, told to go home

Whereas my theory is we will work it out based on the best interests of the country. And that the interests are to keep those in currently but put a bigger limit on anymore influx. A "work with what you've got" kind of thing as it's easiest.

 

I'm not theorising, I'm telling you the hard statistics and the way our immigration laws work so that you can maybe just maybe somehow have a more educated understanding of just what is at stake instead of basing all your opinions on a vastly important issue on speculation and half an hour on Google. Your theory is based on living in a goddamn fairy land where everything works out perfectly, against all historic precedent or established law