What part of physics don't I understand?

[Pbassred]

Look for a you tube video on slow, look, press, and roll and you will be hard pressed to find one. Trail braking on the othe hand, is everywhere. CSS, Ryan F9. Motojitsu, MC rider and more..? Apparently Yamaha USA has some kind of deal where they teach new riders and they teach it. Its everywhere, but not the MSF or the UK Police. What's with that?

[Capt Sisko]

Quite possible because we don't use this term in the UK. Try looking up the IAM's method; IPSGA. As for trail braking, really it's race track technique and whilst it's important to know how to do it, if you've read the road correctly you shouldn't really need to be doing it.  BUT we all get caught out...

Edited June 5, 2023 by Capt Sisko

[Guest]

It needs to be made into an acronym. SLAPAR. Now people will be interested.

[Gerontious]

I never met a slapar I didn’t like.

[Steve_M]

On 03/06/2023 at 21:20, Pbassred said:

Look for a you tube video on slow, look, press, and roll and you will be hard pressed to find one. Trail braking on the othe hand, is everywhere. CSS, Ryan F9. Motojitsu, MC rider and more..? Apparently Yamaha USA has some kind of deal where they teach new riders and they teach it. Its everywhere, but not the MSF or the UK Police. What's with that?

I’ve seen and been taught LL&R. Look, Lean and Roll which, I understand is based on MSF teachings (press missing? What is “press”?). Though not explicitly labelled as such, it was covered when  I was in the Novice group for a Hopp Rider Training “Better Riding Day” at Cadwell Park. As I’m now regarded as experienced by Hopp it hasn’t been covered for me in a  while so I can’t comment whether they still use that as the basis of their days with novices. Particularly since Martin Hopp no longer runs the days. 
 

Edited June 4, 2023 by Steve_M

[Steve_M]

2 hours ago, Capt Sisko said:

Quite possible because we don't use this term in the UK. Try looking up the IAM's method; IPSGA. As for trail braking, really it's race track technique and whilst it's important to know how to do it, if you've read the road correctly you should really need to be doing it.  BUT we all get caught out...

I would also point out that RoSPA operate from the same basis, using IPSGA out of Roadcraft. 

[Pbassred]

"Press" is to press the bar - i.e. initiate counter steering. So; Slow (to the limit point) Look (into the turn) Press (to turn) Roll (on the throttle).

IPSGA is not a cornering technique per-sé.  You could use it at an junction. 

So the Police use it and IAM and RoSPA copy the Police.  So back to the question. Even without arguing the pros and cons of how you get a motorcycle around a bend: Why only the Police?

[Steve_M]

42 minutes ago, Pbassred said:

"Press" is to press the bar - i.e. initiate counter steering. So; Slow (to the limit point) Look (into the turn) Press (to turn) Roll (on the throttle).

IPSGA is not a cornering technique per-sé.  You could use it at an junction. 

So the Police use it and IAM and RoSPA copy the Police.  So back to the question. Even without arguing the pros and cons of how you get a motorcycle around a bend: Why only the Police?

Press = basic positive (AKA counter) steering. It’s machine control 101. As an observer / tutor I would have covered that as a matter of course as needed by an individual associate.

 

I would recommend the machine control course(s) run by i2i where counter steering and general machine control is covered in some depth. Tom has an interesting science based approach and encourages question. EDIT. I just found this video with Tom illustrating the point. Counter Steering.

 

I would add that Roadcraft is so much more than IPSGA.

 

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Steve_M
Added reference to i2i and Tom Killeen

[Steve_M]

On 03/06/2023 at 21:20, Pbassred said:

Look for a you tube video on slow, look, press, and roll and you will be hard pressed to find one. Trail braking on the othe hand, is everywhere. CSS, Ryan F9. Motojitsu, MC rider and more..? Apparently Yamaha USA has some kind of deal where they teach new riders and they teach it. It’s everywhere, but not the MSF or the UK Police. What's with that?

Look, Lean And Roll

 

Crispin is also one of the Hopp Rider Training instructors, and I have benefited from his training. 

[Capt Sisko]

Are we talking about different disciplines here? As far as I can see HRT are a track focussed training company and both the teaching methods and approach on how you do things on the track is different to how you do them on the road.

[Steve_M]

36 minutes ago, Capt Sisko said:

Are we talking about different disciplines here? As far as I can see HRT are a track focussed training company and both the teaching methods and approach on how you do things on the track is different to how you do them on the road.

HRT train on track, but the skills they aim to develop are intended / transferable for road use. 
 

The mechanism for making a bike turn is identical whether you’re on track or on the road. The process of looking through a bend, leaning the bike, and using the throttle appropriately are parallel activities for both environments.

 

It doesn’t contradict anything in Roadcraft, it actually complements it. Some of the instructors are, or have been, IAM observers and one who I know is a RoSPA tutor.  
 

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

All this boils down to what works for you and bike you ride and where you ride it. I ride the Bobber and the CBF differently. There's no single way that's right or wrong. 

[Steve_M]

11 hours ago, Mississippi Bullfrog said:

All this boils down to what works for you and bike you ride and where you ride it. I ride the Bobber and the CBF differently. There's no single way that's right or wrong. 

While the purpose and intent for riding each bike may differ, and the pleasure derived is for different reasons, the principles of machine control remain largely the same. A bike won’t steer well without using counter steering. You continue to look where you intend to go, though that is more about hazard identification than anything to do with actually steering the bike. The bike needs to lean into a bend - that’s a matter of physics, and appropriate use of the throttle to balance the bike through the bend. 
 

 

[bonio]

Trail braking is one of many machine control skills that aren't normally taught for the DVSA test. Roadcraft is even lighter on machine control. As an example, it has instructions like, "brake to reduce your speed before you reach the hazard", but I can't remember it saying anything about how to brake, except "smoothly" and there's no braking exercise in the test. It's as if it assumes you already know how to brake. Even so, you can get a pass at IAM or RoSPA with just basic machine control skills. 

I've done a couple of Tom's i2i machine control courses, and learned a lot. He takes you through all kinds of crazy things I wouldn't have thought possible on a bike. They're not cheap, but if you can, and you're interested in picking up additional machine control skills, go get yourself a place.

[Steve_M]

7 minutes ago, bonio said:

Trail braking is one of many machine control skills that aren't normally taught for the DVSA test. Roadcraft is even lighter on machine control. As an example, it has instructions like, "brake to reduce your speed before you reach the hazard", but I can't remember it saying anything about how to brake, except "smoothly" and there's no braking exercise in the test. It's as if it assumes you already know how to brake. Even so, you can get a pass at IAM or RoSPA with just basic machine control skills. 

I've done a couple of Tom's i2i machine control courses, and learned a lot. He takes you through all kinds of crazy things I wouldn't have thought possible on a bike. They're not cheap, but if you can, and you're interested in picking up additional machine control skills, go get yourself a place.

100% agree with attending i2i courses.

 

Roadcraft, as you point out, misses machine control altogether. I would offer that any IAM observer or RoSPA tutor would (should?)  identify any shortcoming in the associate’s machine control and address it by offering guidance as a matter of course. I know the Norfolk RoSPA group ran a slow riding session for their members only last week.