EU... in or out

[Guest]

http://i.imgur.com/u2JtVEwm.jpg

Interesting quote... but as it was said (in part) in 1930. I'm not entirely sure what relevance it has today.

particularly when in 1953 he said this:

 

“If, on the other hand, the European trade community were to be permanently restricted to the six nations, the results might be worse than if nothing were done at all – worse for them as well as for us. It would tend not to unite Europe but to divide it – and not only in the economic field.*”

 

Source: Winston S. Churchill: His Complete Speeches Vol. 8 page 8681

Obviously the small matter of a world war had altered his views on Europe. who'ld have thought it.

but.. just to return to the quote for a moment.. its been stitched together and altered in a really extraordinarily disingenuous way.. the first part from a speech in 1930 and the second from a reported argument with De Gaulle in 1944 about something else entirely. (the clue is in the date - 1944)

I quite admire Churchill and i actually think its wholly appalling stitching his words together and altering them when they dont quite suit an agenda.

when you're forced to such tactics then all it shows is that your argument doesn't stand on its own merits. Fortunately Churchill left behind everything he said.. either in hansard or his own papers.

[Valko]

I couldn't agree more about the apathy. But those who don't care forget how big an impact the EU has on everything ( be it good or bad ). I am for leaving and project fears constant we will be in the shit if we leave attitude is sad. They will never change my mind and I bet most people are already decided anyway.

 

Nothing to do with united Europe: Churchill shouted this remark to the French leader, General Charles de Gaulle, in a raging row on the eve of the Normandy landings in 1944. Churchill had a ‘roller coaster’ relationship with de Gaulle and wanted to show loyalty to the US President, Franklin Roosevelt.

It is funny you cite Churchill. You know he is one of founders of the EU and the of united Europe do you? Churchill wasn’t a little Englander; not only did he promote and support a ‘kind of’ United States of Europe, in which Britain would play a key role in helping to create, he also had a future vision of world government.

 

we must re-create the European family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States of Europe.

 

http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And yes I am for staying and in and even going further making the Churchil's dream true in a united federated Europe.

[Six30]

I clicked on the link to read what Churchill said but didn't get past the first paragraph when he said ..

"Europe is the fountain of Christian faith and Christian ethics". it's hardly that now , different times.

[Guest]

I wasn't sure if it was a made up quote and to be honest don't care as that sums up my attitude anyway. They need us more than we need them.

[RantMachine]

Amuses me that Churchill is still deemed to be even remotely relevant in politics

[grunthorpe]

Amuses me that Churchill is still deemed to be even remotely relevant in politics

 

Ditto, especially as most people didn't even consider him relevant immediately after the war

[Guest]

Ditto, especially as most people didn't even consider him relevant immediately after the war

 

an interesting little factoid. he got a very slightly lower share of the popular vote in 1945 than Cameron did last year.

Churchill 1945 36.2%

Cameron 2015 36.9%

So, to say 'most people didn't consider him relevant is hardly fair.. what it does show is just how inadequate and unrepresentative our electoral system is. where we have a government that lost by almost 2/1 and yet still won.. gotta love our distinctly perverse democracy.

[MarkW]

On the basis of the illiterate drivel I've had to trawl through on Facebook over the weekend, I can't help thinking that democracy would be better served if we restricted voting only to those who have grasped the rudiments of the English language. If you turn up at the polling station and can't demonstrate on demand the correct use of There, Their and They're, your vote should be discounted. And then you should be shot.

There - a sensible policy for a happier Britain.

[Gin]

Oh Damn!

I avoided this thread when it got a little *Cough, pulls collar* Heated before; sorry about that.

However I just wanna hug some of you guys now

Some brilliant points made!

I really tried to stay away from this one but I just have to add that this:

I couldn't agree more about the apathy. But those who don't care forget how big an impact the EU has on everything ( be it good or bad )... They will never change my mind and I bet most people are already decided anyway.

Followed by:

I wasn't sure if it was a made up quote and to be honest don't care as that sums up my attitude anyway. They need us more than we need them.

 

Well it makes me worry about the general thoughts of the "Brexit" collective..

"I don't really know my sources but I know I'm justified in my Attitude"..

... Totally not a scarily prejudice view to have.

Nor one that is echoed by some extreme right wing parties..

[rennie]

I still haven't made my mind up!

So far this thread has remained fairly well behaved.

Well done all!

Lets keep it that way please

[Six30]

Oh Damn!

I avoided this thread when it got a little *Cough, pulls collar* Heated before; sorry about that.

However I just wanna hug some of you guys now

Some brilliant points made!

I really tried to stay away from this one but I just have to add that this:

I couldn't agree more about the apathy. But those who don't care forget how big an impact the EU has on everything ( be it good or bad )... They will never change my mind and I bet most people are already decided anyway.

Followed by:

I wasn't sure if it was a made up quote and to be honest don't care as that sums up my attitude anyway. They need us more than we need them.

 

Well it makes me worry about the general thoughts of the "Brexit" collective..

"I don't really know my sources but I know I'm justified in my Attitude"..

... Totally not a scarily prejudice view to have.

Nor one that is echoed by some extreme right wing parties..

 

...........

[Guest]

"I don't really know my sources but I know I'm justified in my Attitude"..

... Totally not a scarily prejudice view to have.

Nor one that is echoed by some extreme right wing parties..

 

Oh I don't know mate. I never made any claim to this quote and the EU. Just posted in then explained it was my attitude as well. It was just a light hearted post. I have no fear of leaving.

In fact if it means we can make anyone who wants to come here declare their criminal records before we let them in then thats a good thing. Unlike the situation now where EU nationals don't need to tell us about their criminal past. How the F*** this rule was ever passed by the EU is beyond me. The open border policy and the free movement of people have always been a major concern of mine with regard to this very issue. We don't wan't non EU criminals here yet don't seem to give a toss if you are an EU criminal.

Please tell me you are not happy with this rule?

[Gin]

We've got plenty of pretty scummy criminals that're "home-grown"...

I understand that you might get some nasty people coming into the country but:

1. I don't like people being turned away just cos they stole to feed their family. Criminal records are a not black / white.

2. I think it would be a small minority that would be caught out by a new system, that would cause Weeks of extra paperwork and man hours

3. People who really want to hide their crimes will find a way to do it anyway

4. This is assuming the criminal process in the country they come from matches ours completely..

This all added to the UK prison system being a joke. We need to make sure that criminals don't "want to come to this country as a Safe haven" rather than just stopping them at the borders; where if they're determined enough they'll find a way anyway..

There're WAY more issues that we need to sort in-house before we even think about leaving the EU..

At the moment it would be like kicking the sinking life raft away from the main boat..

[Glorian]

Hey this thread is still active!

You lot made a decision yet? Times pushing on.

[MarkW]

Can I just check that we're still OK with shooting the illiterate? This is a key issue for me, and if leaving Europe means we get to impose some basic standards of written and spoken English on everyone who lives here - at gunpoint if necessary - then I'm all for it.

Last year I had an argument with a member of nursery staff after my youngest son came home with 'was you' instead of 'were you'. I pointed out, with all the tact and subtlety for which I am renowned, that handing over the equivalent of a small mortgage every month to people who have yet to master their subjunctives is not only poor value for money, but also a complete waste of my time when I have to patiently undo the damage they have inflicted with their mangled grasp of their native tongue. And this morning, in the dentists waiting room, I had to cover my eldest son's ears as the woman in front of us dropped one preposition after another.

Even the BBC - dumbed down as it is to the point of imbecility - can't be trusted to uphold standards. I'm all for diversity and equality, but I draw the line at giving CBeebies presenting jobs to people with estuarine English and slovenly glottal stops. Just the other day I caught part of an educational program for pre-schoolers where the coke-addled presenter pronounced that 'Haitch is for Hen'. The purpose of public service broadcasting, as I outlined in my letter announcing my intention to withhold my licence fee pending a significant improvement in standards, is not to pander relentlessly to the lowest common denominator. Note there that I didn't say 'relentlessly pander' - that would have been a split infinitive.

I spoke to my mother about this over the weekend, and asked why educational standards were so much higher in her day. She said it was because if you fell behind the rest of the class the teacher ridiculed you for being a thicky, and hit you with a big wooden ruler until you caught up. Nowadays the reverse is the case, with the bright children held back while the teacher panders to the retards - doubtless due to some piddling European education directive, or something to do with the 'No child left behind' policy (badly misinterpreted by the Catholic church as 'No child's behind left').

Anyway, that's all for now, but I just want it noted that when I run for office I want the job of Education Secretary, and hope I can count on your vote. Together we can make Britain great again.

[Bonniebird]

Regarding the whole 'freedom of movement for criminals'thing. The home office can and do stop the passage of criminals. There is also such a thing as a European arrest warrant.

It would be better for a our security if there were improved communications of police records between countries, both within and outside the EU - not something that would be particularly helped by Brexit.

What worries me most about this referendum is the amount of scaremongering and half truths ON BOTH SIDES of the debate.

One could be forgiven for thinking that everyone is talking through their respective arses (oops, I forgot, we are talking politicians and newspapers here)

[Temeraire]

Regarding the whole 'freedom of movement for criminals'thing. The home office can and do stop the passage of criminals. There is also such a thing as a European arrest warrant.

It would be better for a our security if there were improved communications of police records between countries, both within and outside the EU - not something that would be particularly helped by Brexit.

What worries me most about this referendum is the amount of scaremongering and half truths ON BOTH SIDES of the debate.

One could be forgiven for thinking that everyone is talking through their respective arses (oops, I forgot, we are talking politicians and newspapers here)

 

I think in general the old saying of "never let the truth get in the way of a good story" fits rather well......

[Joe85]

I couldn't agree more about the apathy. But those who don't care forget how big an impact the EU has on everything ( be it good or bad ). I am for leaving and project fears constant we will be in the shit if we leave attitude is sad. They will never change my mind and I bet most people are already decided anyway.

 

Nothing to do with united Europe: Churchill shouted this remark to the French leader, General Charles de Gaulle, in a raging row on the eve of the Normandy landings in 1944. Churchill had a ‘roller coaster’ relationship with de Gaulle and wanted to show loyalty to the US President, Franklin Roosevelt.

It is funny you cite Churchill. You know he is one of founders of the EU and the of united Europe do you? Churchill wasn’t a little Englander; not only did he promote and support a ‘kind of’ United States of Europe, in which Britain would play a key role in helping to create, he also had a future vision of world government.

 

we must re-create the European family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States of Europe.

 

http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And yes I am for staying and in and even going further making the Churchil's dream true in a united federated Europe.

We should also remember Churchill was a big fan of eugenics.

A good war time prime minister, but not so much a visionary.

Anyhow, I enjoy the fact that the Brexit campaign chose to focus on increased Democracy, with big supporters such as the Queen and Lord Owen, sounds to me like the old Lizard is about to give up a life on benefits and abolish the House of Lords. Or not.

[Guest]

We've got plenty of pretty scummy criminals that're "home-grown"...

I understand that you might get some nasty people coming into the country but:

1. I don't like people being turned away just cos they stole to feed their family. Criminal records are a not black / white.

2. I think it would be a small minority that would be caught out by a new system, that would cause Weeks of extra paperwork and man hours

3. People who really want to hide their crimes will find a way to do it anyway

4. This is assuming the criminal process in the country they come from matches ours completely..

This all added to the UK prison system being a joke. We need to make sure that criminals don't "want to come to this country as a Safe haven" rather than just stopping them at the borders; where if they're determined enough they'll find a way anyway..

There're WAY more issues that we need to sort in-house before we even think about leaving the EU..

At the moment it would be like kicking the sinking life raft away from the main boat..

 

I don't like murderers walking into this country.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/27/251C671F00000578-0-image-m-51_1422352953625.jpg

Here is one who came here from Latvia and had already murdered someone. he then killed an innocent person here.

Or this woman who was found over here in Scotland

http://i1.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article5707567.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/JS63506986.jpg

She was arrested here for a drink related offence and then they found she was wanted for murder and torture.

or this guy

In 2012 Kajus Scuka, a murderer from the the Czech Republic who had served 11 years for murdering his wife in his home country, was jailed for a series of sex attacks including a knifepoint rape

I could list more if you want. But add these scummie people to our home grown scum and we have an even bigger problem.

Its a shame we don't check people who come from the EU. Yes we also have the issue of if their criminal process matches ours. Which given that most don't then this is another reason why I disagree with the EU. We are all different countries and have differing views and opinions. Even if its a small minority that would be caught then it should still be done. If it stops one person being murdered by an EU criminal then its done its job. I also agree with our prison service being a joke But then I am all in favour of the death penalty for serious crimes. Why we keep people like Howard Shipman and the Yorkshire ripper alive is beyond me.

Its amazing that we can manage it for non EU citizens but you don't think it will work for EU people.

[Guest]

foreign criminals and the scots.. gone.

we'll be needing a new hadrians wall I guess to stop any scottish criminals coming south if they exit the Uk but opt to remain in the EU as they will be no different to any other european. A foreign land border isnt something we've had since the Danelaw.

[Guest]

Another reason to leave. We currently give around 55million a day to the EU. We could use this money to help support the steel workers. Ditto all the foreign aid we dole out to f*** knows who. I will never understand why we should be support people in other countries when we have major issues here.

[Tango]

Another reason to leave. We currently give around 55million a day to the EU. We could use this money to help support the steel workers. Ditto all the foreign aid we dole out to f*** knows who. I will never understand why we should be support people in other countries when we have major issues here.

Funnily enough the EU wanted to increase tariffs to stop the Chinese dumping cheap steel in our market......but our government blocked this move! I think you'll find that the UK doesn't give £55m a day to the EU......last year the UK contribution was £12bn......and we immediately got a £4.8bn rebate......and there are several other subsidies that the UK receives that reduce our net contribution still further......worth having a read of this to get a clearer view of what we contribute and what we get back.....https://getthebrexitfacts.wordpress.com/2016/03/21/does-the-uk-get-value-for-money-from-the-eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Guest]

Another reason to leave. We currently give around 55million a day to the EU. We could use this money to help support the steel workers. Ditto all the foreign aid we dole out to f*** knows who. I will never understand why we should be support people in other countries when we have major issues here.

Funnily enough the EU wanted to increase tariffs to stop the Chinese dumping cheap steel in our market......but our government blocked this move! I think you'll find that the UK doesn't give £55m a day to the EU......last year the UK contribution was £12bn......and we immediately got a £4.8bn rebate......and there are several other subsidies that the UK receives that reduce our net contribution still further......worth having a read of this to get a clearer view of what we contribute and what we get back.....https://getthebrexitfacts.wordpress.com/2016/03/21/does-the-uk-get-value-for-money-from-the-eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

Oh don't worry mate I don't just blame this government for the steel fiasco. This is an issue which has been brewing for many years. The dumping of cheap steel is one of the reasons but the stupidly high green tax bollocks we all pay ( forced on us by our own short sighted governments over the past years) has a major impact as well. But my point still stands we could stop paying out to the EU and keep the money. Plus I don't know if nationalising the steel plants is the best option anyway.

[Guest]

On this steel issue again.

 

EU state aid rules prevent the government from helping out the nation's steel companies — EU law strictly prevents parliament from bailing out dying companies

 

http://uk.businessinsider.com/uk-steel-industry-failure-eu-state-aid-rules-imports-exports-prices-2016-3

 

State aid can occur whenever state resources are used to provide assistance that gives organisations an advantage over others. It can distort competition, which is harmful to consumers and companies in the EU. Where there is a genuine market failure, State aid might be necessary and justified.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/443686/BIS-15-417-state-aid-the-basics-guide.pdf

So explain how this is a plus point for being in the EU?

 

The European Court of Auditors, the EU’s independent fiscal watchdog, has refused to give the accounts a clean bill of health for the 21st year running, saying payments worth billions of pounds were irregular and possibly illegal.

 

The auditors reported 22 cases of suspected fraud to OLAF, the EU’s fraud investigators. They included suspected conflicts of interest and “the artificial creation of conditions to receive subsidy”.

It highlighted major waste in EU funding for “ghost” airports. An investigation found that half the projects did not need investment while a third were not profitable and faced closure without constant injections of public money.

In the fisheries fund, it found that some projects were awarded EU funds after they had been completed, while in other countries the total funds available was greater than the value of applications received, meaning every project that met the basic criteria received handouts.

In another case, an investigation found that €73,000 of €132,000 of reimbursed travel costs for a research project were wrongly paid after the claimants submitted claims for irrelevant trips and used an incorrect currency exchange rate.

A €764,000 green energy project had a 90 per cent error rate in its accounts.

In Greece, an EU-funded sewerage network project has remained unused nearly a decade after it was launched after the local government failed to connect it to private homes.

There was also evidence of waste in Europeaid, the EU’s foreign aid budget. It included €6.5 million given to a Caribbean bank to finance sugar planting in Belize, of which just a fraction was used.

In another case, receipts for €22,117 of expenses and staff costs for a project to develop trade in the Pacific could not be found by auditors.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11985763/Fraud-allegations-and-waste-as-EU-hands-out-money-faster-than-states-can-spend-it.html

Given that we have an overseas aid package over here which is a mess then the fact we also pay into another aid package in the EU and its as bad if not worse than ours . So explain to me again why we should stay in the EU?

[Tango]

Given the latest Panama Papers thing, none of them, EU, UK, US, Russia, Iceland, etc, are squeaky clean!!

What we pay into the EU is a p*ss in the ocean compared to the massive tax evasion that is going on in this country and others......and if you think this will improve if we leave the EU I think you're sadly mistaken! I also think that anyone believing that any "savings" made from leaving the EU will be diverted to the NHS or anything else that would benefit the general populous are being very naive!

And believing anything printed in the daily propaganda! Tuesday this week one of the biggest scandals seen was breaking.....corruption at the highest level and on an unprecedented scale......and the Front page headlines in the Daily Express? WALNUTS!!! Talk about smokescreening. ......not even subtle!

I have reservations about the EU.....especially TTIP.......but I think leaving will have a huge negative impact on our economy. There will be job losses....everyone agrees this, including the Brexit advocates......The pound will drop against the other currencies, again pretty much everyone agrees on this.....where they do not agree is the depth and longevity of these negative impacts.

Anyone who thinks that the EU will allow us to walk away and take our £12bn with us and maintain the same trading conditions with the market because we're "special" are sadly deluded. There will be extra tariffs. The price of most goods will increase.....directly or indirectly.

Steel.......The Germans have successfully protected their steel industry......If our government wanted to it could do the same for our steel industry......The key phrase here is "if they wanted to"!!!!! But they'd rather buy cheap, inferior steel from China! Who have just announced higher import tariffs on imported steel to protect their steel industry......you couldn't make this stuff up!!