EU... in or out

[RantMachine]

To the first point, I agree it doesn't tend to happen but what choice have they got? They'd have to draw a line and look at those who came during the Euro membership and those who arrived after separately. Separated from the EU we could tailor our visa system anyway so there is a resolution there I think, just not an easy one!

And to the second, that's what I'm interested to see. Europe would have to be very bitter not to invent a simple system like that. Plus it would hurt their tourism industry, and after losing a big economy you don't want to lose any more I suspect

Edit - Above all else, I'd vote in if we weren't governed by the EU. We should be free to dictate our own laws to an extent as so far they've hurt as many businesses as they've helped from what I've read. A quick look at the agricultural industry shows the damage they've had. I swear they invent rules because they have nothing else do to. My big question has always been, why does unity require unelected leaders to implement laws we never wanted/asked for?

So... Your stance is "I'm voting out because I don't know what impact it will have but I want to see"?

Don't get me wrong, I have no issue people having opposing views to mine, and I love to be convinced to change my mind... But the only thing worse than wasting the right to vote is using it without understanding what you're voting for

As for being "governed by the EU"; Were you aware that a significant portion of EU legislation is optional, and yet more of it operates on a very long timescale for implementation... And the goverment of the UK consistently chooses to adopt more of that legislation than any other EU country (yes, including Germany) and on far shorter timescales than actuallu required?

[Fozzie]

Throttled - That's the best "in" argument I've heard so far, from any politician or otherwise. Those are the facts we could do with knowing.

I need to find the argument for "out", I found a perfect contrasting view to yours there. I think the jist of it was that economically countries like the UK are better out, as it listed others that would benefit. It also points out that the claims of peace are interrupted by the bombing of lands like Syria and so on.

When I track it down I'll put it up.

Either way I will still think the EU needs a good shake up.

And the Scottish confuse me, out of the UK but in Europe? Both carry the same accusation of imposing laws not relevant to their land. I don't get that...

[Fozzie]

So... Your stance is "I'm voting out because I don't know what impact it will have but I want to see"?

Don't get me wrong, I have no issue people having opposing views to mine, and I love to be convinced to change my mind... But the only thing worse than wasting the right to vote is using it without understanding what you're voting for

As for being "governed by the EU"; Were you aware that a significant portion of EU legislation is optional, and yet more of it operates on a very long timescale for implementation... And the goverment of the UK consistently chooses to adopt more of that legislation than any other EU country (yes, including Germany) and on far shorter timescales than actuallu required?

 

Close! I've tried to inform myself as best I can over the years.

But I feel like I can't decide as I honestly can't decide whose being honest, and whose scaremongering. "Fact" is a risky word in these debate.

If we were out, I'd vote in as I'd want to see. And vice versa. As I feel with it so 50/50 that's going to be the only way to really know and I accept I could cause a massive balls up... But in equal measure I could contribute to a good decision. So who knows?

Lastly yes I'm aware we adopt much of the legislation. It's the out camp who have inundated me with all the stuff we had no choice in that's fuelled that line of thought.

[Joeman]

If we leave Europe, watch the bike/car/travel insurance companies pile on extra charges if your want to ride/drive/visit Europe..

Better the devil you know i say. Easy for one government to screw up one tiny country like ours. A lot harder to screw up and entire continent!!

If we did leave Europe, what positives tangible changes would people expect to happen that would make life better??

[Fozzie]

If we leave Europe, watch the bike/car/travel insurance companies pile on extra charges if your want to ride/drive/visit Europe..

Better the devil you know i say. Easy for one government to screw up one tiny country like ours. A lot harder to screw up and entire continent!!

If we did leave Europe, what positives tangible changes would people expect to happen that would make life better??

 

Here's my out spiel. Before you read, remember I'm undecided and here's part of what's going on in my head for the "out" side.

The open borders has allowed various industries, from low skill areas to the construction industry be destroyed by an influx of cheap labour. The imbalance that has been left unchecked has meant the government has had to resort to 0 hour contracts to make the unemployment figure look as low as it does. You take away the ready ability for corporations to bring in cheap workers and your own standards will improve as you have more say over a living wage.

We are major buyers from the EU. In my view they won't cut us off as they'd be turning away one of their biggest customers. And it goes against every disaster management strategy going. It would be chopping off your nose to spite your face. And in charge of our own export rules I don't think we will have any difficulty.

Likewise for tourism, a quick check with my American friends suggests a trip to Europe is not a difficult feat. Why would it suddenly be one for us?

Another reason, one that shocks me is how readily people are believing the tories. This is the government selling off bits of our NHS. I understand you can agree with those you usually disagree with, but these chaps just spent your tax money (like it or not) on soliciting the FTSE 100. 36 of them signed a letter urging us to stay in... The other 64 just happened to remain silent even under pressure. Companies like Toyota and Nissan say it makes no difference, Chinese energy companies say they won't hold back investment. If the "IN" group are having to use fear tactics, it suggests their main evidence isn't good enough.

Separation does not mean a lack of unity. I've heard the "So would you divorce to be on better terms with your other half?". Actually yes... If the relationship was growing too costly and toxic and stepping down to a mutually beneficial friendship was a better course for your long term future.

The EU is undemocratic. We didn't elect the European commission. While we adopt many things, did you know they can overrule that? They can impose it like it or not, and have been caught sneaking rules in on more than one occasion. The lack of transparency is not good.

The argument for peace is good... But does not being part of it mean we wouldn't have been peaceful?

Our farming industry would do better, our fishing industry would do MUCH better as ships from the EU are openly allowed to fish in our waters. Many from economies much smaller than our own and forces our own fishermen out of work.

[thestuggle6ft4]

I'm going to move to Australia where the only problem is too much sun and not enough sun cream bugger this mess [emoji112]

[Bonniebird]

Reasonably balanced article:

https://woodfordfunds.com/economic-impact-brexit-report/

Not very exciting though and full of what ifs?

I work for a Global Japanese company with my Divisional HQ in France our overall HQ is Japan via a European holding company. In general, I think of myself as European. In the UK work primarily with the NHS and university sector with already very squeezed margins. Any additional import duty on our products and we could well be out of business.

Also Europe has done more than the UK in upholding human rights, working time, general employment rights than UK. Brussels isn't unelected if you bother to vote for your MEP.

On a lighter note, do we really want 2 million pensioners coming back from Spain and other sunnier European climes to put a strain on our already overstretched NHS? Also, who will our Government blame when it all goes t!ts up next time?

[Valko]

My big question has always been, why does unity require unelected leaders to implement laws we never wanted/asked for?

 

How exactly EU governance differ from the UK one? All MEPs are elected the same way MPs are. All the other positions are also either elected or chosen by all EU governments including the UK one.

UK currently has all the powers to be part of creating any new EU laws. If the UK leaves it will be like Norway. By the way in order to be in the single market Norway still complies with most of the EU laws and regulations.

So you are telling me that in order to be free we need to give us our right to influence the laws that are created in the EU, but we'll still follow them 100%

Anyhow for the sake of the argument can you just show me single EU law that you think is bad for you personally? That has affected you hence you'll vote out to remove it.

Because I have a long list of laws that are good for me. Starting with better consumer rights protection, better job protection, better education and ending with better nature protection and less pollution.

About the effect on the UK economy from leaving - I'm gonna need 100 pages post so do not get me started.

The whole notion that somehow EU is bad for the UK is frankly completely mental and there is not a single fact that supports that. Just lies and media spin.

My 2p.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Valko

[bonio]

-> I want to live in a place where I can vote against politicians whose policies I don't like. (I don't mind if they get in again; I just want the chance to vote against them). But when do I get to vote against Merkel or Junkers or any of the people who actually run Europe?

-> I want to live in a place where the elected government are the people who make the laws. This is no longer true in Italy or Greece. I don't want to hang around and until the same thing happens here.

-> I want to live in a place that is happy to work with Europe and European countries, to trade with them, and enjoy freedom to travel, and still enjoy a good standard of living. Like Norway, say.

So it's out for me, like Norway.

[Joeman]

European open borders didn't cause the influx of cheap European labour into the UK.

The workshy Brits and UK government handouts created the perfect conditions for Eastern Europeans to leave their home and family to fill the jobs the Brits wouldn't do.

[Six30]

I just like watching Boris on TV

[MarkW]

So what did the EU ever do for us? Well, not much, apart from:

• providing 57% of our trade

• structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline

• clean beaches and rivers

• cleaner air

• lead free petrol

• restrictions on landfill dumping

• a recycling culture

• cheaper mobile charges

• cheaper air travel

• improved consumer protection and food labelling

• a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives

• better product safety

• single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance

• break up of monopolies

• Europe-wide patent and copyright protection

• no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market

• price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone

• freedom to travel, live and work across Europe

• funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad

• access to European health services

• labour protection and enhanced social welfare

• smoke-free workplaces

• equal pay legislation

• holiday entitlement

• the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime

• strongest wildlife protection in the world

• improved animal welfare in food production

• EU-funded research and industrial collaboration

• EU representation in international forums

• bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO

• EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty

• European arrest warrant

• cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling

• counter terrorism intelligence

• European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa

• support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond

• investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multipolar global future.

Disclaimer: All of the above was shamelessly stolen from a Facebook post by a friend, who herself shamelessly stole it from an article by Simon Sweeney, Lecturer in International Political Economy, University of York.

[MR_W]

Without the EU, would I still be able to get pizza, kebabs, burgers and fried chicken so easily?

[Six30]

I would of excepted them to do a lot more for our £55 million we send em daily .

[Fozzie]

UK currently has all the powers to be part of creating any new EU laws. If the UK leaves it will be like Norway. By the way in order to be in the single market Norway still complies with most of the EU laws and regulations.

So you are telling me that in order to be free we need to give us our right to influence the laws that are created in the EU, but we'll still follow them 100%

Anyhow for the sake of the argument can you just show me single EU law that you think is bad for you personally? That has affected you hence you'll vote out to remove it.

 

Incorrect. Norway is subject to roughly one third the regulation of other members.

They are part of the EEA, why could the UK not be? The EU didn't slam the door on Norway when they said no to joining... Twice! A couple of years ago their GDP per capita was £40,000 against the UK's £23,000.

So I'm actually telling you we need the deregulation that Norway has, while enjoying the mutually beneficial trade.

A single law? I'll start with the freedom of movement and the effect on house prices. London crowded as that's where the business was, and my rent went up 60% in the same area in 3 years due to the housing shortage. With foreign investment free to snap up property in London, it made it impossible for its own people to live there. I left as it became unmanageable for me and I could not afford the quality of life I could in my home town, with the exact same kind of jobs on the doorstep.

That's why I'd leave.

And on a side note I don't think our people living abroad would have to come back. We'd be at an impasse as if we chucked people out, they'd chuck ours out. At which point, what happened to these human rights the EU boasts?

 

The whole notion that somehow EU is bad for the UK is frankly completely mental and there is not a single fact that supports that. Just lies and media spin.

My 2p.

 

There's plenty of facts, it's only your opinion that devalues them to you. But here's a cast iron fact. Your 2p is worth a lot more because we decided not to adopt the euro as our currency.

They said it would be a disaster if we didn't. And even the "IN" campaigners concede it would have been a disaster if we had taken it on. The people who said it would be a disaster were the cooporations who are determined they are still right to support the "in" movement when they were so sure about our decision on currency to be wrong.

And *this* is why I'm actually split down the middle. As these inconsistencies are everywhere in this debate.

I'll put forward my "In" argument at some point.

[Hoggs]

[

A single law? I'll start with the freedom of movement and the effect on house prices. London crowded as that's where the business was

Oh then I'm definitely in. I won't be able to buy Wales when I retire if my house price suddenly plummets

[Fozzie]

European open borders didn't cause the influx of cheap European labour into the UK.

The workshy Brits and UK government handouts created the perfect conditions for Eastern Europeans to leave their home and family to fill the jobs the Brits wouldn't do.

 

I agree, as I hate the benefits culture in the UK, but the statement can be viewed as contradictory, as I tried that line on someone and had it thrown back at me.

Because regardless, it still allowed them and enabled access meaning we treated symptoms rather than cure the disease, so with a new housing shortage it caused working people like you and me to be penalized unless we already owned property.

 

Oh then I'm definitely in. I won't be able to buy Wales when I retire if my house price suddenly plummets

 

When you do can I be your secretary of transport? I'll make a law that all bikes have to be green

[Joeman]

A single law? I'll start with the freedom of movement and the effect on house prices. London crowded as that's where the business was, and my rent went up 60% in the same area in 3 years due to the housing shortage. With foreign investment free to snap up property in London, it made it impossible for its own people to live there. I left as it became unmanageable for me and I could not afford the quality of life I could in my home town, with the exact same kind of jobs on the doorstep.

 

So you feel your inability to buy a house in London was due to immigrants from Eastern Europe taking all the jobs, overcrowding the city and pushing house prices up??

Really? The unskilled workforce who can barely speak English forced you out of London??

[RantMachine]

Here's my out spiel. Before you read, remember I'm undecided

Talk about backpedalling, you said you were in the "out" camp on page one

Still, glad to see you're fleshing out your opinions a bit now.

[Guest]

So you feel your inability to buy a house in London was due to immigrants from Eastern Europe taking all the jobs, overcrowding the city and pushing house prices up??

Really? The unskilled workforce who can barely speak English forced you out of London??

 

Or the pushing down of wages. My mate was a HGV driver and he was offered jobs for £9 an hour. Which by the way he couldn't take as he has a mortgage and other commitments. Would you work for £9 an hour ? I couldn't afford to can you? Most jobs nowdays at the lower end of the market are minimum wage ( or what ever its called nowdays) or even zero hours. So much for the influx of people not having an effect.

[Joeman]

So you feel your inability to buy a house in London was due to immigrants from Eastern Europe taking all the jobs, overcrowding the city and pushing house prices up??

Really? The unskilled workforce who can barely speak English forced you out of London??

 

Or the pushing down of wages. My mate was a HGV driver and he was offered jobs for £9 an hour. Which by the way he couldn't take as he has a mortgage and other commitments. Would you work for £9 an hour ? I couldn't afford to can you? Most jobs nowdays at the lower end of the market are minimum wage ( or what ever its called nowdays) or even zero hours. So much for the influx of people not having an effect.

 

The point is that the same people "stealing the UK jobs" have passed through all the other European countries and decided to settle in the UK. If it was Europe causing the problem, surely all other European countries would be in the same position - why would they bother coming to the UK?

The blame falls squarely on workshy brits, and UK politicians who support them with UK specific welfare laws that makes it more appealing to stay on benefits than do an honest job - it's nothing to do with Europe.

[Valko]

A single law? I'll start with the freedom of movement and the effect on house prices. London crowded as that's where the business was, and my rent went up 60% in the same area in 3 years due to the housing shortage. With foreign investment free to snap up property in London, it made it impossible for its own people to live there. I left as it became unmanageable for me and I could not afford the quality of life I could in my home town, with the exact same kind of jobs on the doorstep.

That's why I'd leave.

 

You do know that the house prices in London are up not because of poor east europeans, but mostly because of rich russians and chinese do you? And that has nothing to do with EU or freedom of movement...

I mean no offence, but that is hilarious and I really can't stop laughing now

That reminds me Farage blaming immigration for traffic on M4 mate

[Fozzie]

Talk about backpedalling, you said you were in the "out" camp on page one

Still, glad to see you're fleshing out your opinions a bit now.

 

Nah, remember I later clarified I'm voting out as I don't know who to believe, but as we've seen what things are like "in", I'm interested to see what happens "out".

What you've then read is my reasons for the "out" campaign. Issue is I could put forward an equal amount of points for "in".

 

So you feel your inability to buy a house in London was due to immigrants from Eastern Europe taking all the jobs, overcrowding the city and pushing house prices up??

Really? The unskilled workforce who can barely speak English forced you out of London??

 

No, please don't suggest I am blaming immigrants as I've maintained it's the open borders policy at fault, for enabling property investors to force prices up as demand soared, which caused rent prices to soar, which was then compounded by home and foreign investment, buying up properties that now remain vacant as they earn more than their money would in a bank.

Most immigrants are here with the honest intention to work, what they did was legal, and they are doing right for themselves like any of us would. But without the housing to support the sudden influx, the policy allowed this situation to unfold as it was poorly thought out.

Many landlords in London are just enjoying the rise, so I can't blame them, they're only doing what they're allowed to. But you can't say it's honestly fair.

[Fozzie]

You do know that the house prices in London are up not because of poor east europeans, but mostly because of rich russians and chinese do you? And that has nothing to do with EU or freedom of movement...

I mean no offence, but that is hilarious and I really can't stop laughing now

That reminds me Farage blaming immigration for traffic on M4 mate

 

Quote where I said "eastern european".

Then, prove to me that rich Russians and Chinese have bought all those properties (forgetting the oil rich investors from the emirates). Disprove the net migration figures for London too.

Note that in my last post, I list the policy as the main fault, with the contributing encompassing much more than the "eastern europeans".

The only comedy here is lack of any rational reply when I'm trying to partake in a good debate (as mentioned *repeatedly* I'm actually undecided due to not knowing which points to fully invest in).

But laugh away. All you do is prove the point these days no one can have any opinion without fear of attack.

[Joeman]

Talk about backpedalling, you said you were in the "out" camp on page one

Still, glad to see you're fleshing out your opinions a bit now.

 

Nah, remember I later clarified I'm voting out as I don't know who to believe, but as we've seen what things are like "in", I'm interested to see what happens "out".

What you've then read is my reasons for the "out" campaign. Issue is I could put forward an equal amount of points for "in".

 

So you feel your inability to buy a house in London was due to immigrants from Eastern Europe taking all the jobs, overcrowding the city and pushing house prices up??

Really? The unskilled workforce who can barely speak English forced you out of London??

 

No, please don't suggest I am blaming immigrants as I've maintained it's the open borders policy at fault, for enabling property investors to force prices up as demand soared, which caused rent prices to soar, which was then compounded by home and foreign investment, buying up properties that now remain vacant as they earn more than their money would in a bank.

Most immigrants are here with the honest intention to work, what they did was legal, and they are doing right for themselves like any of us would. But without the housing to support the sudden influx, the policy allowed this situation to unfold as it was poorly thought out.

Many landlords in London are just enjoying the rise, so I can't blame them, they're only doing what they're allowed to. But you can't say it's honestly fair.

 

The root cause is that the Brits were too lazy to do the jobs themselves, leaving an opening for the immigrants to come and take the jobs. Had UK welfare laws been stricter, this wouldn't have been the case, brits would have put down the playstations and got a job.

But you're assuming the demand for housing would have been less had it not been for the influx of immigrants.

The large majority of the jobs would still have been there so the demand for housing would too. Offices still need to be cleaned, toilets need new toilet paper, late night petrol stations and fast food places still need staff - but you rarely see the brits doing these jobs.

My experience (as a landlord with a modest portfolio) is that in comparison, the Brits are greedy. They want a whole property to themselves so they can lock themselves away and be antisocial and eat TV dinners by themselves.

Whereas the "Immigrants" are perfectly happy to share a flat with others, eat together at a table, and generally have a better sense of community/family, and they take pride in their home and know how to clean!

As an example I had two British uni students move out of one of my flats (they left it in a disgusting state) to be replaced by four polish people (two couples). They've been there for the last seven years (still paying the same rent as i was charging the two students) and have been excellent tenants. Highly unusual for brits to houseshare like this, yet i've seen it a number of times with eastern europeans.

So, to get to my point, even without the influx of immigrants taking the jobs that the brits were too lazy to do, the demand for housing would still have increased and likely at a faster pace as British people simply take up more space than immigrants!

But London is a special case. its not a place to live, it's simply a place to work, and an investment vehicle for wealthy foreigners - many of whom will never even see the property they purchase - they and the uk government who allows them to purchase in London are the main cause for house price increases in London, not Europe or immigration.