EU... in or out

[Valko]

I'm just throwing it out there.

Rants theory is it will all go to shit and we'll frog march people onto a boat, told to go home

Whereas my theory is we will work it out based on the best interests of the country. And that the interests are to keep those in currently but put a bigger limit on anymore influx. A "work with what you've got" kind of thing as it's easiest.

 

It is all good to discuss the future consequnces of In or Out, but you need to understand there are things that already happens, because of the referendum too.

The fresh example is the pound going down after Boris Out statement.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... hnson-spa/

How much has costed the UK taxpayer (that is me BTW) the Boris stunt to win the hardcore tory electorate in his desperate bid to become the UK's Alexis Tsipras.

Means I can exchange less euros on my summer holiday this year in France, because Boris decided to go all Trump

BTW there is a reason why the UK is one of the best European economies. Because it is open and liberal work market. Migrants provide the workforce easiliy for the business. The option to "work with what you've got" kind of thing is not good for the business at all.

[Throttled]

Most agree that the wealthy should pay more in tax than the poor. Well the UK as of 2015 was the worlds 4th most wealthy country in the world beating both Germany and France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_wealth

Germany (29.3 billion) and France (23.2 billion) pay far more than the UK (17 billion) into the EU. The UK is the wealthy nation in Europe who gets away with the smallest contribution.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... -know.html

Anyone who slags off the wealthy for not paying their fair share in tax should not be moaning about our EU contribution.

[Joeman]

This is what other EU members get up to:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/25 ... shoot_out/

[Fozzie]

Rant - It doesn't wilfully ignore that fact, you have watched me weigh up your point of view against the one given to me by the "out" campaign and decide you point had more grounding, as mine would have relied on a lot. I was undecided due to the facts of both sides being overwhelming.

Also I didn't say we had the same angle, I said we want the same outcome, but our methods vary. And as per my first statement, I accepted my way was unlikely feasible due to a lack of honest politicians to make it happen.

I just want to achieve social stability by creating a better economic situation. Without money you can't help these people! Surely you see that? Otherwise the ship sinks, and being able to say morally "We helped the people by all going down together" isn't any help at that point.

It seems to me, being undecided is viewed the same as uneducated.

Being on the "other" side is also viewed as such.

Also regardless of any correct point I make, I'm pulled up on old angles I had, and out of context lines.

So I'm stepping out of this thread as I'm decided. I'm not voting. I don't want any part of this anymore. If anyone has a reply to something I've said, feel free to PM it to me where you can be as blunt as you like. I get the feeling hidden feelings are motivating some of these replies.

Edit - And I wish no hard feelings on anyone over this discussion. I just feel disillusioned with politics right now.

[Six30]

Foreigners taking low paid jobs the lazy Brits don't want to do.... How many road sweeping or shelf stacking jobs are there, what happens when there all taken do we just keep the gates open.

£55 million a day ..a fooking day..we pay the eu.... How many hospitals could that build..

 

None, since UKIP want to spend more than that increasing the defence budget.

 

UKIP aren't running the country and doubt they ever will, so your comment tis a silly one

our defences have been cut to the bone as has the NHS, we need to look after our selves first and foremost.

[soll]

NHS has plenty of money, and i say this as an employee. what it needs to do is get rid of excess managament and reduce expenditure on consumables.

alot of money is spent stocking consumables, and drugs... however the nmanagement of those items is crap.

As a hospital equipment engineer, i can vouch that 20 grands worth of drugs are regularily thrown away a week, because some prat left the fridge door open or did not close it properly, thus they went out of its storage temp spec.... therefore it cannot be used.

its stuff like that that costs the nhs its staff etc.

[nicklucey]

I'm in,

I like the idea that I could leave this afternoon and go and work in one of the many fantastic European countries. I also like the short queues at customs.

A lot of outers (not all) seem to focus on issues like immigration which is just based in fear, and the idea that britain is better on its own, ie. Independence for independence sake. The reality is everyone's lives are effected by global events much more these days than in the past, climate change, the economy, terrorism are all global issues and we need to be part of a global power to play any significant role in our future.

The idea that Britain is strong enough on it's own is admirable patriotism but misguided.

[Gin]

NHS has plenty of money, and i say this as an employee. what it needs to do is get rid of excess management and reduce expenditure on consumables.

alot of money is spent stocking consumables, and drugs... however the management of those items is crap.

As a hospital equipment engineer, i can vouch that 20 grands worth of drugs are regularily thrown away a week, because some prat left the fridge door open or did not close it properly, thus they went out of its storage temp spec.... therefore it cannot be used.

its stuff like that that costs the nhs its staff etc.

 

This man Deserves a Medal!

Gaw I used to work for a private mental health care company and working with the NHS was like pulling teeth because the people who are meant to be in charge are simply sucking money out of it rather than actually sorting it out!

The amount of reshuffles in the admin / management throughout the last few years has been hellish. The funniest point is that even in reshuffling PCTs / CCGs etc they still cause chaos with no one knowing who the hell is meant to be in charge!

However, the doctors, nurses and staff who have to deal with the real heavy matters every day are run into the ground day after day and Still are able to smile and stay wonderful.

Anyway

Was in a meeting so missed all the fun again

Was being perfectly Civil Fozzie, just was at a lack for words for a moment! I was very surprised by your choice of words, given that you normally are so good at picking them!

 

Without money you can't help these people! Surely you see that? Otherwise the ship sinks, and being able to say morally "We helped the people by all going down together" isn't any help at that point.

I think Throttled pretty much answered this one with the issue with the UKs finances being far closer to home than the EU..

If I take your hyperbolic statement at face value; I would much rather sink with the people I tried to help, than let them sink knowing at least I'm dry on my cushy pile of money.

 

It seems to me, being undecided is viewed the same as uneducated.

Being on the "other" side is also viewed as such.

Also regardless of any correct point I make, I'm pulled up on old angles I had, and out of context lines.

No. Being uneducated is being uneducated. Just because people put a mask of a certain political view over the top of not having the knowledge to back it up doesn't change the underlining point.

If someone in this debate was trying to argue the side for In without knowing any of their own points then they will get pulled up on it, as you did later in the thread.

But I am glad to see that you've approached every angle of this argument and now have a better over all view of the topic.

 

I get the feeling hidden feelings are motivating some of these replies.

I think everyone in this has so far been pretty open about their feelings, its a shame that you feel that you've been targeted in this and I'm hoping my replies will demonstrate that this is just a political debate over a very powerful issue.

I'm actually pretty proud of everyone so far! This has been far more friendly than some of the real political debates that are on TV.

Trump recently has been nothing short of Vile.. But that's another thread

[Throttled]

Foreigners taking low paid jobs the lazy Brits don't want to do.... How many road sweeping or shelf stacking jobs are there, what happens when there all taken do we just keep the gates open.

£55 million a day ..a fooking day..we pay the eu.... How many hospitals could that build..

 

None, since UKIP want to spend more than that increasing the defence budget.

 

UKIP aren't running the country and doubt they ever will, so your comment tis a silly one

our defences have been cut to the bone as has the NHS, we need to look after our selves first and foremost.

 

My point is that the EU is cheaper than weapons and proven to make us more secure.

[Mr Fro]

I hadn't even considered the diversity aspect of immigration either.

A new convenience shop opened up in my village the other week. If all immigrants were to be deported then 100% (i.e. both) of the shops would close and I'd have nowhere to buy Rolos.

On a slightly different note, I heard a radio programme earlier that had various political types from the "in" and "out" camps and none of the slippery buggers would answer a straight question. Even when the chair asked directly "What are your plans on immigration?" all he got was the same old cobblers "Well you see, the question we should really be asking is..."

I think this is perhaps why many of us struggle to make a reasoned, rational decision. The tail line at the end of the programme was something like "With so many mixed messages and scaremongering, the public can only rely on their gut feeling".

Hold on, just remembered the chippy would close too. My village would just be some houses and a load of ducks.

[Guest]

My point is that the EU is cheaper than weapons and proven to make us more secure.

 

How?

You can't prove this one way or the other. Its a pointless fallacy used by the In crowd to try to scare us into staying. Oh and how has the free travel policy which means terrorists can freely roam around the EU made us more secure?

[Guest]

I hadn't even considered the diversity aspect of immigration either.

A new convenience shop opened up in my village the other week. If all immigrants were to be deported then 100% (i.e. both) of the shops would close and I'd have nowhere to buy Rolos.

On a slightly different note, I heard a radio programme earlier that had various political types from the "in" and "out" camps and none of the slippery buggers would answer a straight question. Even when the chair asked directly "What are your plans on immigration?" all he got was the same old cobblers "Well you see, the question we should really be asking is..."

I think this is perhaps why many of us struggle to make a reasoned, rational decision. The tail line at the end of the programme was something like "With so many mixed messages and scaremongering, the public can only rely on their gut feeling".

Hold on, just remembered the chippy would close too. My village would just be some houses and a load of ducks.

 

What a load of old bollocks mate. People like me who want to leave are against mass uncontrolled imigration. I have nothing against people who want to come here to work. But and its a very BIG but. We should be like Australia where we are very choosey about who we allow in. We should allow genuine asylum seekers who go through the legal channels to claim it. But this number should be limited. But to just take any waif and stray in is wrong.

I remember and have worked with many Asians who came over here in the 70's when they were booted out from the then Uganda. They fled the country with nothing and came here with nothing. But we as a nation took them in and helped them get on their own two feet. Yet they came here expecting to work and didn't expect or get much in the way of hand outs from the state. But of change from the people who are coming over now isn't it. This is my issue with imigration.

Yes there are many Eastern Europians who work hard but we have had to absorb the mass influx of those who don't and are unskilled and can't get a Job. Or turn to crime like mass Romianian pick pocket gangs the police warn us about.

We also have the stupid situation where due to the Human Rights court we can't kick rapists and murderers out as it would be against their Human Rights. You couldn't make this shit up could you. We should say to anyone who comes here behave or loose you rights to be here and you WILL be deported with no right to appeal.

[techno]

I'm in,

I like the idea that I could leave this afternoon and go and work in one of the many fantastic European countries. I also like the short queues at customs.

A lot of outers (not all) seem to focus on issues like immigration which is just based in fear, and the idea that britain is better on its own, ie. Independence for independence sake. The reality is everyone's lives are effected by global events much more these days than in the past, climate change, the economy, terrorism are all global issues and we need to be part of a global power to play any significant role in our future.

 

 

I don't feel like being part of a European superstate has any bearing on any of those issues tbh and some are more than closely tied to immigration and the definite need to control our own borders and levels of immigration.

[Guest]

Oh and how has the free travel policy which means terrorists can freely roam around the EU made us more secure?

 

Last time i travelled, there was passport control and armed border security at Folkestone.

however...

Take that to its inevitable conclusion and ask yourself how free movement between counties here in the UK made those people safe on the underground on the 7th July 2005

closing down free movement of travel does nothing to prevent terrorism when the terrorists are home grown.. and so far most, if not all - have been.

Its simply more ill thought through propaganda from the 'out' brigade.. like I said in my last post, the propaganda has worked.

FWIW the Schengen agreement that allows free movement was signed over 30 years ago.. in a very different era. Long before our glorious leaders lead us down this path into an artificially created hell. And now we're paying for it. Big time. It will have to change.. and inevitably will do so.

[techno]

Most agree that the wealthy should pay more in tax than the poor. Well the UK as of 2015 was the worlds 4th most wealthy country in the world beating both Germany and France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_wealth

Germany (29.3 billion) and France (23.2 billion) pay far more than the UK (17 billion) into the EU. The UK is the wealthy nation in Europe who gets away with the smallest contribution.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... -know.html

Anyone who slags off the wealthy for not paying their fair share in tax should not be moaning about our EU contribution.

 

I found this paragraph quite interesting

"However, on a net basis, Britain was the second largest contributor to the EU budget last year. It put €10.8bn more into the EU pot last year than it took out. Only Germany paid more on a net basis."

I still believe as others do that this contribution is too much, why should we prop up other member states failing economies?

[Guest]

The contribution sounds like a lot of money, but is actually peanuts. 0.3% of our GDP unless my sums are out... billions and trillions are both mind boggling.

Is anyone naive enough to think this £10 billion would be spent on anything useful? that we could actually use.. that would improve our quality of life?

£10 billion a year.. over 10 years is the approximate lifetime cost of the Trident replacement.. I have to ask which is the more moral cost. helping out poorer countries, or buy a nuclear weapon system that will never be used. That is nothing more than an expensive ticket for a seat on the UN security council.. a talking shop that can do nothing without the tacit agreement of both Russia and China.

which would I rather do?. spend 3p out of every 100 pounds I have on charity... or save towards a gun that I'll never use.

[Throttled]

My point is that the EU is cheaper than weapons and proven to make us more secure.

 

How?

You can't prove this one way or the other. Its a pointless fallacy used by the In crowd to try to scare us into staying. Oh and how has the free travel policy which means terrorists can freely roam around the EU made us more secure?

 

The EU was awarded the Noble Peace Prize. No EU country has gone to war or is remotely likely to go to war with another. Both are due to the cooperation and lines of communication between countries that the EU provides. That is my evidence of the security the EU provides.

Terrorists can roam even with border controls. During the Troubles the Irish border was very heavily policed and patrolled. Terrorists had no problems moving from one country to another. There were terrorist strikes prior to Schengen. The IRA struck at army bases in Europe.

[RantMachine]

My brother always manages to sneak between non-EU countries pretty effectively on his travels, even with all the additional border control going on around the refugee criss...

[Throttled]

......

What a load of old bollocks mate. People like me who want to leave are against mass uncontrolled imigration.

 

I have not met anyone who is for mass uncontrolled immigration. The UK has not signed up for Schengen and so still has border controls. As for the countries in Schengen, as soon as a mass uncontrolled immigration took place border controls were put back up.

 

I have nothing against people who want to come here to work. But and its a very BIG but. We should be like Australia where we are very choosey about who we allow in. We should allow genuine asylum seekers who go through the legal channels to claim it. But this number should be limited. But to just take any waif and stray in is wrong.

 

No one from the EU can claim asylum in the UK. EU residents can come to the UK and work and about as many UK residents work elsewhere in the EU as EU residents work here.

 

I remember and have worked with many Asians who came over here in the 70's when they were booted out from the then Uganda. They fled the country with nothing and came here with nothing. But we as a nation took them in and helped them get on their own two feet. Yet they came here expecting to work and didn't expect or get much in the way of hand outs from the state. But of change from the people who are coming over now isn't it. This is my issue with imigration.

Yes there are many Eastern Europians who work hard but we have had to absorb the mass influx of those who don't and are unskilled and can't get a Job. Or turn to crime like mass Romianian pick pocket gangs the police warn us about.

 

Please stop conflating asylum with migration for work. EU rules are clear, no job and you cannot live in the UK. EU rules mean removing EU citizens with no job is straightforward. You are wrong to blame the EU for the UK with its border controls still letting in Romanian pick pocket gangs.

 

We also have the stupid situation where due to the Human Rights court we can't kick rapists and murderers out as it would be against their Human Rights. You couldn't make this shit up could you. We should say to anyone who comes here behave or loose you rights to be here and you WILL be deported with no right to appeal.

 

That does happen with EU citizens. Any EU citizen in the UK who commits a crime is reported by the police to the Home Office. The Home Office then makes a decision and can and does does remove people from the UK and ban them from returning. A minor road traffic offence is not going to get an EU citizen removed, a robbery will. If the UK is not in the EU any more then we need an agreement with each EU country to have its citizens who commit crimes returned. They may not agree.

The rapists who cannot be sent back are those who got asylum here and cannot be returned to be killed or tortured. That is not a result of the EU, that is from UK membership of the Council of Europe and the ECHR, not the EU.

I am sorry, but the load of bollocks has been from you and your lack of knowledge as to what the EU does and does not do.

[Throttled]

.......

FWIW the Schengen agreement that allows free movement was signed over 30 years ago.. in a very different era. Long before our glorious leaders lead us down this path into an artificially created hell. And now we're paying for it. Big time. It will have to change.. and inevitably will do so.

 

The UK is not in Schengen and it is changing with border controls springing back up all over Europe.

[Throttled]

........

I found this paragraph quite interesting

"However, on a net basis, Britain was the second largest contributor to the EU budget last year. It put €10.8bn more into the EU pot last year than it took out. Only Germany paid more on a net basis."

I still believe as others do that this contribution is too much, why should we prop up other member states failing economies?

 

We are not, that is an issue for the Eurozone. We should make the biggest contribution because we are the wealthiest, or are you for taxing the poor to help the wealthy?

[Guest]

.......

FWIW the Schengen agreement that allows free movement was signed over 30 years ago.. in a very different era. Long before our glorious leaders lead us down this path into an artificially created hell. And now we're paying for it. Big time. It will have to change.. and inevitably will do so.

 

The UK is not in Schengen and it is changing with border controls springing back up all over Europe.

 

I never said it was.. and neither as I recall did you. so i wonder at the point of the first part of your comment. and as for the second part...

you make 'border controls' sound like the old days with a physical barrier and armed guards.

As far as i can tell, schengen is being partially waived only in two areas. as a temporary measure on the border between France and Belgium, due to the closure of part of the camp at calais and Belgium worrying about a mass influx. plus in Austria on its borders with the former soviet controlled countries (plus little Slovenia). All of this due entirely to the migrant crisis and not terrorism. I doubt theres much activity on the border between Germany and Luxembourg or the Netherlands for instance. or France and Spain, Germany and Poland. If i cross from France into Belgium.. will I be stopped? that seems unlikely, if they ask to see my passport is that a major hindrance? no. will they check it as well as at passport control at Folkestone - no. so where is the breakdown in 'free movement'?

Will border guards come on trains at border crossings and go through the entire train checking everyones ID.. as they used to. that seems unlikely too.

For EU nationals it will be no different than the road crossings into Switzerland.. you wave your passport at the guards and through you go, though they dont really do that.. they just look at your number plate.

[rennie]

This thread is interesting!

and on the whole fairly well behaved!

Lets keep it that way please people!

No personal attacks!

(political and or religious threads! I've shit'em! )

[Joeman]

I think if I had the cash id buy myself a nuclear submarine..

[Mr Fro]

I think if I had the cash id buy myself a nuclear submarine..

It's not a nuclear one but you could go and nab that old Russian one that's been bobbing about in the Medway for years.