EU... in or out

[RantMachine]

I know that you know I know, know worries

[Six30]

The problem is, whoever you listen to for advice will be bias one way or another, and noboddy actually knows the true consequences of leaving or staying in Europe.

So there is no way to fully educate yourself prior to voting.

Democracy is a good thing but currently we are all expected to be political experts and do our own research before casting a vote. That's where democracy falls down.

 

Democracy is the least worse political system to paraphrase Churchill I think. A reason why democracy does work is because of "the wisdom of the crowd" where it has been found that a large group decision is often better than one individual even if that individual is an expert. The ignorant in the crowd are more than cancelled out by those who do have knowledge of a certain subject. Collective knowledge is pooled.

I think that a read of this thread is enough to make anyone better informed as to the issues and more importantly non issues being discussed. The big non issue is immigration. Leaving the EU will have hardly any affect on the present immigration issues. The UK opted out of Schengen (which has collapsed anyway) and never gave up its border controls. The present agreement between the UK and France to have the UK's border in France at Calais was a agreement between us that had nothing to do with the EU. The UK opted out of the refugee agreement which is why we only take a few Syrians directly from camps there and have not allowed any to walk into the country. Non EU immigration is not affected in any way by the EU, the UK always had full control over that. EU immigration is due to our membership of the EEA and if we stop the east Europeans from doing work here, we will just need to give their low paid jobs to.......? Plus we need to find jobs for UK citizens who will lose their right to work in the EU and may have to return. They do well paid work and will not be a replacement for the low paid work. Plus there is every indication we will negotiate to stay in the EEA along with various other non EU countries.

 

Copied and pasted admission

– If Britain withdrew from the EU it would preserve the benefits of trade with the EU by imposing a UK/EU Free Trade Agreement.

– The EU sells a lot more to us than we sell to them. In 2014 there was a trade deficit of over £50bn, with a current account deficit of nearly £100 billion. It seems unlikely that the EU would seek to disrupt a trade which is so beneficial to itself.

– Moreover, the Lisbon Treaty stipulates that the EU must make a trade agreement with a country which leaves the EU.

– World Trade Organization (WTO) rules lay down basic rules for international trade by which both the EU and UK are obliged to abide. These alone would guarantee the trade upon which most of those 3 million jobs rely.

So millions would not lose their jobs ... More scare tactics

[RantMachine]

None of that covers the massive issue of rights to remain or work, though - which still stands to mess up anything up to 2 million jobs in the UK and 1 million on the mainland

[Six30]

None of that covers the massive issue of rights to remain or work, though - which still stands to mess up anything up to 2 million jobs in the UK and 1 million on the mainland [/quote

There's countries not in the eu who's nationals can and are working in the eu with the same rights as eu members, so why would it be diffrent for the uk ? no ones got a crystal ball but there is a lot if propaganda going on .

[Guest]

There's countries not in the eu who's nationals can and are working in the eu with the same rights as eu members,

 

what countries are they?

[RantMachine]

Not saying we won't let them stay, or that other countries will force our expats to go, because that really only could be wild speculation. But, if everyone is allowed to stay they still have to have visas just the same as all the non-EU nationals working in the UK at the moment. All that legal and diplomatic paperwork takes a long old time even when the numbers are relatively small, up-scale it for the vast surge in demand that will hit if we leave the EU, and a lot of people will have to bugger off to their home country until the visa comes through, In one of my earlier posts I listed the exact numbers, but what it boils down to is that every year our country only manages to process a tiny fraction of the number of visas or leave to remain applications that would be filed overnight. And yes, standard procedure if someone doesn't have a valid visa and is waiting for one to be issued is to send them home until it's ready - I know a few people from across the Atlantic who have had to go home for 6 months while they waited for a new visa to be approved. Even if we granted an amnesty for everyone already here, Indefinite Leave to Remain takes something like 12 months per person, and that's with current levels of demand.

I don't care to get mixed up in debating all the numbers that people spout in reference to trade agreements or foreign investments we might or might not lose, or any of that other stuff that is really just speculation from one side or the other. Some arguments in there will be stronger than others, but it's still mostly just maybes. My genuine concern about how an "out" vote will impact on our economy is how it will devastate our workforce, and these concerns are based on hard facts about how our immigration system works. And that stuff is never going to change overnight!

[Six30]

There's countries not in the eu who's nationals can and are working in the eu with the same rights as eu members,

 

what countries are they?[/quote

Tis true ... Google... squire

[Guest]

There's countries not in the eu who's nationals can and are working in the eu with the same rights as eu members,

 

what countries are they?[/quote

Tis true ... Google... squire

 

I tried.. but the results for squire had little to do with work permits, residence permits and the rest.

[XTreme]

Whatever happens......I ain't going back!

[Bogof]

Most jobs nowdays at the lower end of the market are minimum wage ( or what ever its called nowdays)

 

It's not just me, is it?

[MarkW]

Just thought I’d add to this thread on the basis of something I heard on Any Questions last week. I was listening to a farmer (who was also an MP from Lincolnshire) advocating vociferously for leaving the EU on the basis that he was sick and tired of being told how to run his business by Brussels. This was accompanied by equally enthusiastic clapping and cheering from the audience, despite the fact that every point he made was based on complete ignorance of the facts.

My business is global crop protection (specifically the registration of natural and synthetic pesticides) in which capacity I have worked intimately with most EU Member States, the Commission and the European Food Safety Authority for the last 16 years. The main thrust of the argument being made by the farmer on the radio was that if he wants to export his produce to Europe he has to comply with EU Maximum Residue Level legislation (which determines the maximum amount of pesticide that can safely be present on or in food) but that European farmers are not bound by it when importing into the UK. Setting aside the fact that this would clearly mark it out as a UK issue rather than a European one, he was completely wrong.

Years ago, each European country had its own national pesticide legislation, varying in rigorousness and quality from fairly high to lethally bad. If you were a farmer wanting to export produce to these countries it was a nightmare: you would have pesticides authorised for use on your crop in your country that were banned in others, meaning either that your produce could not be sold there or that you had to flout the rules in the importing country and sell them stuff covered in banned substances. That was particularly problematic for UK growers, where produce from Spain could be imported and sold here very cheaply because it was grown with inexpensive synthetic pesticides (for which read ‘products derived from Second World War nerve gas research with horrific mammalian toxicology profiles’) many of which were not legal for UK growers to use. Result? Spanish peppers, tomatoes and strawberries sitting right next to British produce on the supermarket shelf at a fraction of the cost because they had been grown with cheap pesticides not available to UK growers.

Enter the European Union with its Authorisations Directive, and its current incarnation the Plant Protection Products Regulation. Although this is a regulation and thus passes directly into law in every Member State, ‘being told what to do by Brussels’ is not an appropriate criticism of legislation that was drawn up with input from all Member States, and in which the UK in fact played one of the leading roles.

The legislation does a number of things. Firstly, it harmonises the data requirements and regulatory procedures for authorising pesticides across the whole of the EU, meaning that every Member State has to apply the same rules in the same way. Secondly, it requires that before any pesticide product can be considered for use in an EU country the active substance(s) in it must first have undergone a rigorous assessment by all 28 Member States, the Commission, the Standing Committee on the Food Chain and Animal Health, and the European Food Safety Authority. Pesticide legislation in Europe is now the most stringent in the world, and despite the professional headaches this often causes me there is no getting away from the fact that our food has never been safer.

The legislation also imposes an EU-wide system of Maximum Residue Levels and Import Tolerances, thereby levelling the playing field for growers and exporters. Many of those MRLs and tolerances are set at the Limit of Detection, which means if you find it all, there’s too much.

If we left the EU, any food the farmer on the radio wanted to export to Europe would still be subject to the same Maximum Residue Level and Import Tolerance legislation. However, food imported into the UK would not necessarily be subject to such rigorous controls. In all probability we would just mirror the levels set by the EU, in which case why leave? As many of the tolerances are already set as low as they can go our food certainly wouldn’t become any safer, so all we would be doing would be giving up all our legislative influence by absenting ourselves from the pesticide Professional Working Groups, the Steering Committees and the EU evaluation procedure, for no benefit whatsoever.

And for anyone who thinks that UK pesticide legislation should be a UK matter and that we’d make a better job of it if we handled it ourselves, think again. Over the last twenty years there has been a rolling process of re-evaluation for all pesticides on the market in Europe to more modern analytical and safety standards, phasing out the worst of them and bringing in much safer modern substitutes. The UK has such a poor performance record that we are considered one of the countries of last resort for anyone looking to bring ‘green’ pesticide technology to market in Europe. Other countries – and especially Holland – do it much, much better than we do. But the beauty of the harmonised EU system is that every Member State has to follow the same procedures and accept the outcomes, meaning you can pick a country that is performing well and disregard the ones that are not. Consequently I send almost all my new active substance applications to Holland and then have the UK rubber-stamp the national product authorisations through the Zonal Mutual Recognition procedure – another benefit that greatly simplifies roll-out of crop protection products across Europe.

Although this has been a rather specific example, it illustrates what bothers me about the EU referendum: that a vote based on ignorance counts the same as a vote based on knowledge. That’s not to say that I think the ‘out’ camp are ignorant - there are plenty of people far brighter than me on both sides of this debate. But had I been a layman sitting in that audience I would have thought “I don’t know the first thing about EU pesticide legislation, so I have no way of knowing if this information is correct or not.” What we actually got was a room full of people who put such self-censorship to one side in order to clap and cheer for no reason other than that it sounded anti-EU, and thus chimed with their views. It was no different to certain evangelical presidential candidates waving a bible in the air and declaring evolution a lie, and instantly garnering the enthusiastic support of millions of people who think evolution means a monkey once gave birth to a human.

It is a lazy sophism to say that all opinions are equally valid: they’re not. Ignorance and knowledge are not equivalent - that’s why we consult the GP rather than the medicine man when we’re ill. But as has been pointed out before, the problem we all face in coming to our views is separating the factual from the merely emotional, and the truth from the spin.

Most importantly though, writing this has made me look sufficiently busy for just long enough that my wife has given in and sorted out the mountain of paperwork on my desk that I have been ignoring since the start of the week. Result!

Edited March 22, 2016 by MarkW

[Hoggs]

I'm replying to register my "like" of your post Mark and thanks for the details - I found it weirdly enjoyable reading!

[RantMachine]

Ditto!

[MarkW]

I'm replying to register my "like" of your post Mark and thanks for the details - I found it weirdly enjoyable reading!

Ha! Thanks Hoggs. I don't get invited to many parties though...

And where's that 'like' button gone?

[Chrissb6]

I would like to vote out but l feel our problems are not europe but our own selfish greedy governments who are hell bent on lining there's and there mates pockets fist. Having not long returned from a fantastic winter holiday in Norway where we had 4 g connection all the way up through the artic circle and back, roads packed with ice trucks and and cars running on studded tyres and not a pothole to be seen we could clearly see the goverment put there country first. As others have already said unless there's a massive change in government politics here the average uk citizens here will remain to be stuffed.

[Guest]

The other main reason to vote out is that the Scots will want another referendum to decided if they should split from us. If we let them have another vote then fingers crossed they will f*** off and we won't have to listen to that whiney bint whinging about everything being so unfair for the Scots.

[Joe85]

I like Sturgeon. Shame she's a sweaty, there's not one politician I'd want to vote for at the moment.

[Valko]

What Brexit means for motorcycle riding?

Here is the impact (summary from latest Ride magazine Andrew Dalton's article):

Insurers will go back to their old ways of daylight robbery - no money for your stolen bike if you have forgot to disclose your sat-nav for example, there will be no 2012 EU drirective to make them pay.

The newly coming EU directive to get compensation if injured by cyclist will not happen.

Travelling to Europe - welcome back to the good old days of insurer green cards and international driving licences.

No EU citizen blue helath card anymore - you will need good medical travel insurance and/or your credit card. Plenty of EU states require payments in hospitals.

If you are injured overseas you will need to prepare for long legal battle in the country that has happened. Currently you cando your claim here in the UK. No more. Prepare to learn how Italian or German legal systems work. The process islong and expensive.

Also welcome back to the long queue on all border crossings with non-EUs.

I am old enough to remember it takes few hours if lucky to pass any country border. Plenty of forms to fill. The way migrants crisis goes, expect to have extensive checks on each country border for all non-EU citizens.

INB4 all "bad" emissions or other technical requirements legislation coming from EU. The new bike will be built to international standards anyway, so do not expect Honda to start doing some special edition bikes for the UK. And the UK comitment to reducing pollution is greater than most EU countries too.

[Six30]

More scare tactics I'm afraid... Mr Dalton wants to stay in the EU, he has lived in Spain for ten years .

[TC1474]

Out. Sooner the better

And despite the scare mongering, by Mr Dalton and others, motorcycling IMO and based on discussions I have been involved in, will be better off.

Jurisdiction will still be able to be transferred back to the UK. Even now, cases from outside the EU are moved back to the EU, the only proviso is as with any case, there has to be a continuing ongoing financial loss. So nothing will change there.

If you are injured by a cylist, the rules will not change that much. Even now you can still sue. The reality is that there is little point because most don't have insurance and you still have to weigh up whether they can afford to pay if you succeed in a PI claim against them.

Green cards not a problem, and it will be equally more of an issue for foreigners coming to the UK because they will not be able to drive on their current foreign issued licences, so it may actually act as more of a deterent, but an international driving licence is not a major issue should it be required, and for those of you who are old enough to remember, the green card was actually a good way of ensuring that you had proper cover for your own peace of mind than finding out the hard way.

I do not see Brexit as a negative, quite the opposite

[Guest]

As I see it we have Brexit or project fear. Project fear seems the most desperate and is making some amazing stuff up to try to shock people into staying. But it's getting rather pathetic the lengths the stayers are resorting to

[Guest]

As I see it we have Brexit or project fear.

 

you missed the third and probably largest demographic. people who really dont care because being a member of the EU has little or no effect on their lives. Brexit seem to think its the root of all evil. if that were the case then you'll see a huge turnout and a massive majority. I expect neither. apathy is more likely than not to be the actual decider in this vote.

[Mr Fro]

As I see it we have Brexit or project fear. Project fear seems the most desperate and is making some amazing stuff up to try to shock people into staying. But it's getting rather pathetic the lengths the stayers are resorting to

Gautrek - mythical Norse character. Most of Scandinavia is in the EU. You going to change your forum name then?

[Guest]

As I see it we have Brexit or project fear.

 

you missed the third and probably largest demographic. people who really dont care because being a member of the EU has little or no effect on their lives. Brexit seem to think its the root of all evil. if that were the case then you'll see a huge turnout and a massive majority. I expect neither. apathy is more likely than not to be the actual decider in this vote.

 

I couldn't agree more about the apathy. But those who don't care forget how big an impact the EU has on everything ( be it good or bad ). I am for leaving and project fears constant we will be in the shit if we leave attitude is sad. They will never change my mind and I bet most people are already decided anyway.

[rob m]

I'm voting in.