Adventure bikes - East vs West

[Smighty]

Hi all,

 

For some time I've been looking to get a bigger chopper bike, but for my needs, it will not be the most suitable solution. As a big guy I am having issues on longer runs (over 3hours) and riding 2 up (with my wife) chopper is not the most comfortable choice.

So, we decided for the next season to switch to an Adventure bike instead. As we never had an adventure bike before, I am writing to you (fellow bikers) for more suggestions and advice.

 

We are looking for a new bike (preferably), budget is limited (around 14.000eu), big enough for 2 riders and that its not struggling on highways (130-140km/h). Ride: 10% off road (nothing too extreme), 20% urban, 70% open road/highway.
What I've tried for now are CF Moto 800 with KTM's engine (790cc) and Moto Guzzi v85tt.

Is it worth looking at the new (on the European market) Chinese brands? Does anyone have any info about their reliability?

Honestly, I kinda do like v85tt with a bit of retro touch on it, that its shaft-driven, the sound of V2 engine and its better stability (weight sits lower compared to CF Moto)

The CF Moto has more equipment for less money, 95hp (15 more than Guzzi from the parallel twin), a bit higher seat (around 20mm, but both of them are comfortable)

Is there any other model that you may suggest, and why?

 

Cheers,

M

 

[Guest]

How about a second hand super tenere?

[Fiddlesticks]

V-Strom 1000?

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/suzuki/dl1000-v-strom/2017/

[Smighty]

@goat if there is a chance for a new one, would be better (warranty). It is a bit risky here because you can never know how it was maintained...

@Fiddlesticks 1050 or 1050 DE?

 

[Fiddlesticks]

Good question!  There's a comparison here:

https://www.motorcycle.com/new-model-preview/2023-suzuki-v-strom-1050-and-v-strom-1050de-first-look.html

[Smighty]

@Fiddlesticks interesting...for some casual biker it seems that there are no bigger differences (except the price of around 1000eu here)

[bonio]

Tiger 1200? @Bungleaio has one and rates it.

Or the 900 - cheaper but less grunt for 2-up. Delivers a lot of bike for your euros.

[fullscreenaging]

VERSYS 1000. 
 

[Smighty]

Hi all,

 

@bonio i checked and Tiger 900 cannot be found under 14.000 in this part of Europe (sadly). You are making it there on the islands and its cheaper for you 100%. The other issue - service and spare parts.

@fullscreenaging it is one of the options (taking into consideration that its one of the tallest bikes out there). The only concern i have is the supplier (for maintenance) and every 2nd owner is saying that Kawa could have done a better final finish on the bike. Do you have any info about this model in general? Some xp?

[fullscreenaging]

49 minutes ago, Smighty said:

@fullscreenaging it is one of the options (taking into consideration that its one of the tallest bikes out there). The only concern i have is the supplier (for maintenance) and every 2nd owner is saying that Kawa could have done a better final finish on the bike. Do you have any info about this model in general? Some xp?

@Smighty

I’ve owned a 2017 MK2 GT from new. 
It’s never missed a beat and has been the best bike I’ve owned*. Currently on 20300 ish miles. The engine torque is lovely and you get good 6th gear pull if you don’t want to change down. Even better if you do!
I’m 5’ 7” with a 29” inseam and have never had any issues with the height. I never paddle the bike around, always get off and walk. I always use the foot peg to mount/dismount. 

I changed the screen a few times until I found one that fitted me. I ended up with   a GIVI Airflow. 
There is nothing wrong with the finish in my opinion. Although I think nowadays no bike has the same finish as they used to have…

I changed the seat to a Kawasaki comfort seat after a year which made a difference for me. I have always had issues with any bike seat. Must be my backside!

The OE suspension is on the plush side and works OK even two up until you start to really push on and the roads are not in the best condition. I changed the front for Hyperpro progressive springs and the rear shock with remote pre load after 4 years. It made a big difference to the bike but I like to get a move on. 
I changed the end pipe only for weight saving and a bit of aesthetics.
The only thing that I did dislike about the bike was where Kawasaki had moved the sat nav bracket to for this year of bike. 
They moved it to the handlebars, which in my opinion was dangerous, as you have to take your eyes off the road and move your head to view. I took it off and got an above the clock bracket from SW Moto. 
Some say the OE pannier capacity is a little on the small side, but again I’ve had no issues. We’ve managed to get everything we needed in the Top Box & Panniers, a small 5L tank bag and a rucksack on my wife’s back. 
 

*Some previous bikes

GSX600F

CBR600F

CBR600RR

Tracer900 GT

 

[Smighty]

@fullscreenaging thanks for the info! I've seen that it can go up to 870mm (seat height) which is really important for me (I'm 6'63").
Whats the average fuel consumption, riding 2 up (on a highway)? Any information about the service intervals?

By the way: price goes to 20.000 if you are choosing bags, heating seats/handles, taller windshield...which is a bit above my pay grade at the moment

Cheers,
M

[fullscreenaging]

@Smighty

I never take any notice of fuel consumption as the bike is a toy. I’ve owned it 7 years and have just checked and it’s showing just under 46mpg. 
My wife hasn’t been on the back for 4 years due to health issues so since then it’s been spirited riding. 

Here is the MCN reviews of all iterations of the Versys 1000. 
interestingly the MK2 gets the highest score out of the 3

 

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/kawasaki/versys-1000/

 

[Smighty]

That is actually pretty good.

We are planning to travel with it so its not (kinda) a toy for us i had the same approach for the new car we got this year (avg is around 20mpg).
At the end of the day, when you do the calculations and the distance you traveled...it makes quite a difference 

[RideWithStyles]

Id take the moto guzzi over a cf Chinese bike any day...thats not stereotype but tried it for myself.

cant go wrong with a jap / the versey kawa, service on the jap will cost less and be serviced anywhere while the guzzi will cost more with less dealers about but guzzis have a charm, look after it and it should have a better return but less people look at buying them. 

yes odd bits can lose finish if your not prepared to look after any bike but ive found out that nearly all will do that with different parts fitted ..acf50 at the ready.

 

Nice adventure bikes but how tall is the pillion? If the pillion is shortish it's gonna be a palava and a few stabs at trying to get up with kit on which  can be off putting if it's too tall.  
carrying a folding stool or the other way is to let the pillion on first using the riders pegs,bars and seat , then slide up to the pillion seat from there before the rider gets on but some dont like that.

 

sport touring bikes might be worth a look.

 

also fullscreen, smighty is nearly a full foot taller than you (at 6.6) so what fits you might not fit him especially off stock parts.

 

Smighty how much do you weigh?
long are your legs? Longer calfs? 

Arm length? Longer forearms? 

spine and neck length? Long spine but short neck etc? 

They all play apart as to what will fit from the off so you need to consider these if want to avoid having to suddenly buy aload of parts to make it comfortable. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by RideWithStyles

[megaross]

Most blokes wives all wish they had a bigger chopper but yeah, 3 hours is enough for anyone.

 

Serious note, v85tt is actually a nice bit of kit in my opinion. Test one out first, not for everyone.

 

I wouldn't touch a Chinese bike with a barge pole -

 

One they're crap quality, it's built down to a price and the knowledge for repairs is limited at best.

 

Two? depreciation. You'll take a mammoth hit in depreciation if you buy new so your losses are huge. If you buy on pcp your monthly payments will be more because depreciation is so high.

If you buy used Chinese you're buying a bike built to a price a few years down the line when it's had a chance to rust and decay.

 

Three? Never seen a comparison in any reputable bike publication side with the chinese option on test.

 

They're not as shit as they were but they're still a shit proposition.

 

If I was buying a long distance adventure style two up tourer I'd be looking at a last gen multistrada, personally.

Edited October 11, 2023 by megaross

[JRH]

CF are probably the best of the Chinese. CF 800 is built round the KTM engine.

Good review by MCN  https://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/cf-moto/800mt-touring/2022/

 

Though personally I don't think I would buy one until they are proven with reliability and residuals. 

[Smighty]

@RideWithStyles I'm a pretty big dude (around 125kg, should be around 270 pounds). Used to be a basketball player. On the other side, my wife (the 2nd rider) is a lot shorter person (5'1") 

 

About Chinese brands: I would agree and disagree at the same time.

An example (from the car industry): I've found some brand in China, which I've never heard of before, but I saw in the showroom in Sofia/Bulgaria (the name of the brand is Haval, model H6 Supreme). After doing some research, I found out that the engine is from KIA (although its written "GWM" because of the license), the transmission is from VW, the electronics are from Bosch, lights made by Osram (premium LED), built on Range Rover's platform...even it was assembled in Japan. Nothing is Chinese except the name and the group (GWM). Bought it last year in November, and have done around 20k miles already (including off-road), without any single issue. And yes, It was a lot cheaper compared to the European brands (and the car is in the top spec, only missing the autopilot).

 

As far as I could research about CF Moto, for example, it is the same "approach". It's actually a rebuilt KTM 790, which (by the stats) is not a bad bike at all. That is why I am contemplating getting one. I am aware that, for any brand-new vehicle bought, I will lose money anyway. If you pay 15 grands for it and just drive it out to the street, it will be 13 grands because it is not a "new" bike anymore. So, honestly, I do not care that much about losing money on it. The more important things are: is it reliable and comfy for both of us, is it in warranty so that I don't have to run around and search for the spare parts? We are not demanding riders, will not climb the Alps with it nor chase bears over Ural Highway (around 70mph), some city driving and a bit easier off-road...

 

On the other side, I am not that experienced and on the forum we can find a lot more experienced drivers who know much more than I do and much more than statistics can say.

 

@megaross I really do like how it looks, and I stand by the fact: if you park your bike and don't turn around just to check it while you are walking away...you have the wrong bike  

Moto Guzzi v85tt has that retro vibe, an amazing combination of forest green/golden colours, a V engine which rumbles and it feels that weight sits lower compared to the CF Moto 800t (which I like). Although it is around 220kg bike with around 80hp, I do think that is more than enough for non-demanding drivers and that will be comfortable on longer runs. Why am I contemplating? - the seat height (lower than CF) and price difference (more expensive, around 25%).

 

Thank you both for the info tho! Glad to be part of this forum.

[Smighty]

@JRH over here it is around 11 grands (in full spec) for the Touring model.

Also, they are willing to give me 25% off for the Sport model (around 7 grands total) but it's missing some features compared to the Touring one.
They are in warranty so whatever goes wrong, should be covered. But there is still that feeling: will it break down while I'm 500 miles away from home..
And honestly, I was driving an Alfa Romeo for quite some time so I am pretty used to that feeling

[RideWithStyles]

yeah so your a big dude (height and weight) with quite a smaller pillion so a tall bike with high pegs to seat height will be a challenge for her to start with, so consideration if you want to both enjoy the experience. Now the thing will be for you could be to have a seating position that will allow you to "sit in the" bike if youve got a long spine, cos if you try a "sit on" bike you be really high up and your whole torso and head will be like a sail and jack sparrow jokes asside the wind noise and drag will be tiresome!! While youre good pillion will see nothing other than your back and shoulders beyond her 3-5 and 7-9 view...or they my be tempted to keep hanging off to see and possibly banging her helmet in you back alot.

so this is why i mentioned about personal body lengths, do you have long legs and arms to relation to tour spine length etc. 

im 5.10 or 9 now...age shrinkage ? anyway i have longer arm reach (mostly due to the forearm) so i have a elbows out style similar to a toad.

my thighs are shorter than my calfs, So for me my knees tend to want a higher tank level to grip to or the pegs to be lower and a touch further back due to longer calfs. Or it can tilt and annoy my hip if not in the right place as the has to thigh lift up.
My spine is longer than into relatively to my neck length so helmets tend to catch my collarbone and easily my shoulder so... a very up right bike (adventure/penny farthing lol) wouldn't suit me as it would but strain on my upper body and neck as id have certain body parts pulled to meet the to bikes triangle. So just to say a big person on a big bike will work may not if the contact points are all wrong,

these are the things you'd be best think about for future buys due to your "above" and pillions "below" average unique bodys.

 

now im not a fan of these bikes myself so i have nothing to sway me as they are more than i need while i do appreciate that they are for other people but have you considered something like a pan or a bmw rt etc?
These are good size quality bikes that are very capable and customisable for an individuals needs and shys from tat being added to them.

 

ktms are decent performing racing engines but their reliability even in road form is questionable even to this day (engine bearings, cams, head gaskets are regularly broken) so id put them lower than most euro bikes including old Ducatis.

sometimes its not the individual components like bosch and nissin etc that are the problem sometimes it how its put together (placement of looms etc) and what its put with ( a brembo caliper with a toki or unknown master cylinder or worse why pay a euro company when our fellow "citizen" down the shinzen dumper road can bodge a hose etc for less paper work faff and cost) that makes the difference... plus was it thought out correctly for the life of the bike not just how quickly it can be put together at the factory as cheaply as possible? 
 

with cf moto all they have done is bought the right to (buy or build depending on the contract) a certain engine....

they are still Chinese factory with old ways still like not protecting the metal before painting so within a year the bikes metal parts are bubbling with rust under the pain, putting thinest and shortest wires in, low grade connections....

even if cf bought a bosch abs system, which is it? Did they just buy a generic one and a base software or non at all?  Does that work with it well, what else is in with it to talk too, or did they just try to add a few extra 1 and 0s to code somewhere and call that done??? Did a quick check and it didnt kill the dummy or computer didnt say no straight away so it must be good?? Say management mr Wong.

 

a differnt China manufacturing group bought the rights to half a norton v4 engine, need i say anymore...

nearly all the chinas bike parts still come from china directly rather than being stocked in Europe (for us) so if you got a clock, swing arm, engine compounet you need which will go at somepoint youll have a long wait to get it "shipped" to you even if the part is still in production before the next model comes out in a few years after the first release as they don't believe in manufacturing afterlife care.

 

Car world is different to bike world in so many aspects, business practices, buying availability, sources yada yada...

motorbikes in tech and business terms are still behind the car giants of about 10-20years depending on ethos or technology components you wish to choose.
Kia have been in the uk for many, many years and yes they have got better and understanding the euro customer which is why somethings have changed with them.

 

The reason they cost to us in uk not that much different to the euro or jap car nowadays is because they are buying the same main components and taking a little less in profit to bridge the quality gap they had moons ago.

With main components the bosch is just the abs and stability system off the shelf product. 

The engine is a gen or two old GM engine off memory which nothing too scary about them but cheap, not the most cleanest or dynamic engine, at least they didnt buy the gearbox!!!
Just avoid the vw dsg dual clutch box especially if its for a 200+hp engine. 
but for costs they tend to go with their ownwiring, routing and pairing other parts that cant be seen by the customer or the spec sheets which can be the downfall.

 

when the parent company is about its as the book but when not being spyed its do as you feel. 
 

i ve owned one of the bigger and better brand one,  Benelli ( ZQM) must say they are getting better but they are still behind (10yrs at their fast but copy pace) for what id call "all round life time motorbike consumer experience ".

 

and for the depreciations is still greater especially pass the first few years over other well established brands just cos there is no warranty and back up is poor, its not car trade so put that to bed.

also for outside dealer network servicing the thing is more difficult due to supply, poor components and general maintenance issues, most garage and mechanics do not want to work on them... its like a explosive box of worms for them...

 

so when you get the same general advice on this forum that say the same of not to do it, please heed it.

Edited October 12, 2023 by RideWithStyles

[Smighty]

@RideWithStyles so, you would give an advantate to Moto Guzzi v85tt rather than CF Moto 800t in this case
I really do respect and will accept all of your suggestions because you guys have the experience and owned (at least once) some of these bikes.
 

Another question: do you think that its worth checking BMW F850GS? Is it okay for riding double?

 

PS: it is vw dsg dual clutch box (7 gears) and the engine is 204hp For now, i am more than satisfied. Also, i am not planning to keep that car more than 5 years (warranty). Probably will get it back to get another one. The same will be for the bike...riding in while its in the warranty, getting it back when it expires and ordering a new one.

[bonio]

I've had a go on an F850GS. Seemed plenty powerful enough to me. I liked the way it rode a lot - light steering, wide bars and a zesty engine - and I thought seriously about getting one. Good off-road bike, too. I kind of agree that it might struggle two-up, but googling seems to suggest lots of people happily ride one with a pillion.

[RideWithStyles]

Yeah even to this date the dual clutch has a problem, if its to the gti and hot models that gearboxs can't handle the higher end of especially torque, so definitely dont reflash or mod the ecu...i havnt kept up with it for a year or so but they comically have/had a 60,000 thou mile timer of death even vw was slower than the japs to make a change to the design from when i was on a forum....

 

Actually not a bad suggestion from bonio but struggle is dependent on what you want? if your cruising with your pillion light sunday ride it should be good still as it has decent power and torque low down, if you marques on a trackday its gonna show some shortfalls.
If your a thinish build body and your partner is, it will still serve with enough space for you both, if your stockier then the bigger think they are on 900 or more now or rt or similar will be more than enough.
Go and have a look and see what fits you both.
Now i do recommend a top box, big one.. she can lean back and ise it as a back rest to relax and you can store the helmets and stuff in there when you park up so you dont have to carry it about looking like you ready to battle a knight.

Edited October 13, 2023 by RideWithStyles

[Smighty]

For the price we are willing to pay (add 1000-2000 on top) I think that I can find a BMW. Will take a look for sure!

Room wise: sadly I'm a bit of a bulky guy, but luckily she is not so we will compensate 

Managed to schedule to see the Tiger 900 next week, will keep you posted on my first impressions. Also, V-Strom 1050 is on sale here. I can get it for around 12.000eu which I think is a good price for that specific model. What do you think, is it worth checking?

 

as I mentioned, we are not that demanding drivers...a lot of cruising on a highway and between the cities. From time to time some off road will be included, mostly going to the camping areas.

I do not like to drive/ride fast anyway so we do not need a powerhouse. But, on the other side, having that power in your arsenal for dire situations is more than wished for (overtaking, critical situations when you need to throttle it hard...)

 

PS: for the DSG transmissions, they had an issue with 6 gears box (information I managed to get from the mechanics). On this one, they managed to cure almost all of those child sicknesses. Also, the engine is on petrol (not diesel) so there is not a lot of torque. It still can pull (0-60 is between 7.5 and 8sec, towing force for 2 tons). And me driving it within the limits, I don't think that it will leave me somewhere far away from home And it's under warranty...even if it breaks down, it will be covered, so no headaches for me 

 

One more bike which I found on the market, but its Asian again, QJ Motor SRT800X. They give 5 years of warranty here (and unlimited millage). Do you know anything about it?
It is a cheap one and I am not expecting some miracles from it. I will might take a look. Otherwise, I know myself, I will eat myself from within If I buy something without checking everything else on the market

[fullscreenaging]

@Smighty

 

Have you changed the font colour? I’m having a hard time reading your posts. The font is a very light grey for me. 
 

[Smighty]

@fullscreenaging i did not. It looks the same...
Strange, some kind of a glitch/bug