Women on submarines?

[Silverspring]

I had a very interesting conversation today when I mentioned the news that women will finally be allowed to serve on submarines with the Royal Navy. I (naively?) assumed most people believed in sexual equality in this day and age so I thought most people would think this was good news.

It transpires I was wrong, which has me wondering how many other people disagree with the MoD's decision. What are the arguments against women being allowed to do the same jobs as men are? Does anyone else thing it's a bad idea?

If the news passed you by:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/dec/0 ... sfeed=true

[hammer5]

No touch policy will be hard to follow, not being perverse, more the lack of room..

Working in such a confined space would freak me out, guess that's why I ride & do what I do.

BB

[CheshireCBR]

I cant see any difference in allowing women onto a sub, I can see the point that was made about pregnant women on bord thow lmao, letting a 5 month gone pregnant woman on a 6 month tore underwater could be a differet experiance for them

the only obstical that there is logicly is the fact that these boats were designed for single sex use and as such were never designed with fasilities for both sex's so there will need to be a bit of moving arround and when new boats are designed this aspect being built in, which might seem a minor point but in design terms in such a tight space can be a problem?

but atleast comon sence has come about in the end

[techno]

The reason I heard that was behind them not being allowed is co2 is more harmful to women, now am assuming n modern nuclear subs this isnt as much of an issue, maybe it was just a bullshit excuse to fob them off.

I have no problem with women being allowed on board about bloody time, but am sure there will be some things some women wouldnt want to do, cos its a mans job

[Throttled]

So long as the ladies are happy sharing toilets and beds (as the men have to do and not at the same time) there should be no issue.

[TC]

I've not got a problem with equality and women doing so called mens jobs and vice versa.

The problem i have with women being on submarines (Having been on them as well) is the operational duties and lifestyle of a submarine is totally unique.

As Nogin touched on already the design of the sub is for single sex, close proximity living. Space is a premium on board. Unlike on a ship where there is more space. Its not just a case of putting women and a sub. Its seperate shower rooms, drying rooms, sleeping quarters.

My main concern is the Emotional side of life. (don't tell me about the No touching rule)

Boy meets girl and get on great, then they fall out and the boy (or girl) hook up with someone else onboard. There is NO WHERE to hide or show your emotions on a sub, Plus you can't show emotions (Man up)

The person that has been dumped has to live with their ex and new partner in confined spaces for the next 5-6 months. People have topped them selves for less.

What happens if a women gets pregnent while the sub is on patrol under the ice (artic) These boats are hard enough to live on with out added distractions or emotional pulls.

Now i'm not saying women can't work on subs. I'm saying I dont agree with them being mixed sex

[mealexme]

sailor mate of mine had a thing against women and gay men fighting in combat, not because he had anything against them, but because we will automatically go to save someone who we are attracted to (presuming the gay male is attracted to another male he is fighting with) or the woman even if you are not attracted to her because we are genetically designed [insert relevant word that has gone from my mind here] to protect the woman.

The rest of this is my personal opinion:

The added implication on women on subs is men can get frustrated and may end up raping one of the few women on board, or she may find love on board and become pregnant, which would then mean there is a baby on-board a military submarine, which imo is just wrong.

I'm all for women doing what has previously been seen as a mans job, but in a sub situation I think a mixed gender onboard a sub can come with difficulties, so Imo there should either be same sex subs or very very strict and clear rules to make sure none of the above happens

EDIT: I wrote that before I read TC's post

[Throttled]

Women cannot serve on submarines as they have no semen.......

.....I'll get my oilskin.

[techno]

I've not got a problem with equality and women doing so called mens jobs and vice versa.

The problem i have with women being on submarines (Having been on them as well) is the operational duties and lifestyle of a submarine is totally unique.

As Nogin touched on already the design of the sub is for single sex, close proximity living. Space is a premium on board. Unlike on a ship where there is more space. Its not just a case of putting women and a sub. Its seperate shower rooms, drying rooms, sleeping quarters.

My main concern is the Emotional side of life. (don't tell me about the No touching rule)

Boy meets girl and get on great, then they fall out and the boy (or girl) hook up with someone else onboard. There is NO WHERE to hide or show your emotions on a sub, Plus you can't show emotions (Man up)

The person that has been dumped has to live with their ex and new partner in confined spaces for the next 5-6 months. People have topped them selves for less.

What happens if a women gets pregnent while the sub is on patrol under the ice (artic) These boats are hard enough to live on with out added distractions or emotional pulls.

Now i'm not saying women can't work on subs. I'm saying I dont agree with them being mixed sex

 

But thats the nature of eqaulity, there is no gender you are a person, hell you reep what you sow!

Am assuming it is the women that want this and if so then as for the stuff you mention dave they will have to put up with it ie dont bloody moan!

We have 1 woman on the shop floor here in a totally male environment, its obviously been noted she has her ample appendages on show, and she knows it too, what am getting at is it will as this job did attract a certain type of wopman who will be able to handle it as she does!

[CheshireCBR]

Women cannot serve on submarines as they have no semen.......

.....I'll get my oilskin.

 

[Silverspring]

sailor mate of mine had a thing against women and gay men fighting in combat, not because he had anything against them, but because we will automatically go to save someone who we are attracted to (presuming the gay male is attracted to another male he is fighting with) or the woman even if you are not attracted to her because we are genetically designed [insert relevant word that has gone from my mind here] to protect the woman.

 

That's the reason the Army gives for not allowed woman in close contact combat but I'm not certain it applies to the Navy, it must be difficult to think of a situation where a sailor would have to walk away from a dying/injured crew member to avoid endangering the mission. It could happen but it's unlikely. I do find it ironic that when a man refuses to leave another man behind he is a hero (and gets a shiny medal) but if he refused to leave a woman it'd be a protective instinct that is not desired.

 

The rest of this is my personal opinion:

The added implication on women on subs is men can get frustrated and may end up raping one of the few women on board, or she may find love on board and become pregnant, which would then mean there is a baby on-board a military submarine, which imo is just wrong.

 

This genuinely concerns me. The act of rape is pure aggression and control, it's used to control or punish the victim. Sexual frustration isn't an excuse, I don't care how long it's been since you've been laid, when a woman says no you back the f**k off. To say the risk of rape is higher in an enclosed environment is nonsense, if anything a sub would be so bloody busy there would be no opportunity to attack someone in such a way. I would like to see statistics but I'm sure the rate of sexual attacks on other enclosed working environments (like oil rigs) is lower than in the general populace.

As for babies, well they take 9 months to cook so you'd have to be incredibly unlucky to get knocked up the moment you set sail on a 6 month sail! And woman continue to be able to function when pregnant, it's not like they get knocked up then that's it, no more work!

[Bonniebird]

I think only certain people, men or women would want to serve on submarines and I think that the ability to cope with cramped claustrophobic conditions in close confinement with others (of either sex) is not something that appeals to most.

There is an argument that mixed gender groups would be a more 'normal' social environment and make the situation easier to deal with.

That said, there would have to be common sense rules to try and avoid difficult situations.

I'm guessing that most women in the forces have already developed pretty thick skins and aren't easily offended (not sure about the blokes )

A lot of women prefer 'non-girly' conversation. I'd much sooner talk about crankshafts, beer and rock music than Eastenders, waxing and celebs and most of the women that I get on best with do too.

Anyway, enough of my rambling - I'm off to paint my nails and watch Masterchef

[Silverspring]

Its seperate shower rooms, drying rooms, sleeping quarters.

 

Yip that's why they won't be onboard til 2013, they need to make a few adjustments to the living quarters but that's not an excuse to not let them on.

 

My main concern is the Emotional side of life. (don't tell me about the No touching rule)

Boy meets girl and get on great, then they fall out and the boy (or girl) hook up with someone else onboard. There is NO WHERE to hide or show your emotions on a sub, Plus you can't show emotions (Man up)

The person that has been dumped has to live with their ex and new partner in confined spaces for the next 5-6 months. People have topped them selves for less.

 

So woman can't work on subs because there might be a few tears before bedtime for the boys? If individuals choose to break the rules and have sexual relations then really they should deal with the consequences if it turns sour.

 

Now i'm not saying women can't work on subs. I'm saying I dont agree with them being mixed sex

 

That's as good as saying they can't work on subs. There is utterly no possibility of a female only submarine. I hate to think how long you need to serve on a sub before you can captain it, how exactly would any woman get such experience? Virtual reality? Or should we just give them a sub and see what happens?

The fact of the matter is other Navy's have let women on subs (Norway have been allowing it since 1986) including Australia and Canada. There has been no mention of pregnancy or people killing themselves due to having to live with ex lovers in the argument against it. I imagine that's because it hasn't happened. If pregnancy has occurred, as I said already, it's not the end of the world, woman are actually designed to carry children and continue to function!

[CheshireCBR]

woman are actually designed to carry children and continue to function!

 

you never met my ex!

sorry, my sarcastic side coming out

[rennie]

I have no problems with women on subs or in the forces in general!

It will take a certain type of woman to fit in and function.

I worked with several when I was in the forces.

Some were really good some were not! ( same as blokes).

It will take a bit of getting used to but I think overall it should be a good thing.

[mealexme]

That's the reason the Army gives for not allowed woman in close contact combat but I'm not certain it applies to the Navy, it must be difficult to think of a situation where a sailor would have to walk away from a dying/injured crew member to avoid endangering the mission. It could happen but it's unlikely. I do find it ironic that when a man refuses to leave another man behind he is a hero (and gets a shiny medal) but if he refused to leave a woman it'd be a protective instinct that is not desired.

Fair point

 

This genuinely concerns me. The act of rape is pure aggression and control, it's used to control or punish the victim. Sexual frustration isn't an excuse, I don't care how long it's been since you've been laid, when a woman says no you back the f**k off. To say the risk of rape is higher in an enclosed environment is nonsense, if anything a sub would be so bloody busy there would be no opportunity to attack someone in such a way. I would like to see statistics but I'm sure the rate of sexual attacks on other enclosed working environments (like oil rigs) is lower than in the general populace.

As for babies, well they take 9 months to cook so you'd have to be incredibly unlucky to get knocked up the moment you set sail on a 6 month sail! And woman continue to be able to function when pregnant, it's not like they get knocked up then that's it, no more work!

I just want to make clear that I didnt mean that sexual frustration is in any way an excuse

And no, I agree a baby wont be born onboard, I didnt mean baby, I meant fetus, but either way it is a vulnerable life onboard a busy, cramped, stressful environment which wouldn't be good for mother or child

[TC]

Its seperate shower rooms, drying rooms, sleeping quarters.

 

Yip that's why they won't be onboard til 2013, they need to make a few adjustments to the living quarters but that's not an excuse to not let them on.

 

On A Totaly seperate note.

After all the defence cuts, Soldiers not having the right amount of equipment in a war zone like afganistan, The Navy not having ANY aircraft for the Carriers (they used to be called aircraft carriers).

How much will it cost for each submarine to be taken out of service and refited.

[techno]

Its seperate shower rooms, drying rooms, sleeping quarters.

 

Yip that's why they won't be onboard til 2013, they need to make a few adjustments to the living quarters but that's not an excuse to not let them on.

 

On A Totaly seperate note.

After all the defence cuts, Soldiers not having the right amount of equipment in a war zone like afganistan, The Navy not having ANY aircraft for the Carriers (they used to be called aircraft carriers).

How much will it cost for each submarine to be taken out of service and refited.

 

It doesnt matter cos it comes out of the magic political correctness pot, its like the magic health and safety pot but with less hi vis!

[Nogin]

My Father is a retired Nuclear Sub commander and he is like many of his age that think woman have their place in the navy on board ships however he does have his concerns about subs.

He says being under water with out daylight for 3 months at a go is stressful enough in a bean tin full of blokes but mix in a few ladies and its a possible disaster in the making!

Now i'm no expert, but please ladies don't be offended but and office full of women can be nothing short of nasty!

From my point of view, i have no issues, hell its probably what the navy need and lets face it women are as capable of doing any job a man is.

[TC]

My Father is a retired Nuclear Sub commander and he is like many of his age that think woman have their place in the navy on board ships however he does have his concerns about subs.

He says being under water with out daylight for 3 months at a go is stressful enough in a bean tin full of blokes but mix in a few ladies and its a possible disaster in the making.

 

Wasn't it a submarine where the last murder was comitted in the RN and that was an all male boat.

You cannot imagine the stress levels on a sub. Thats why i have my concerns.

[Nogin]

Yep and bring with out daylight and fresh air makes it a whole lot worse!

[Mawsley]

My son's bedroom stinks.

My son's bedroom after a sleepover with his mates stinks even worse.

I imagine a sub to have an environment like 50 of his bedrooms. I don't care who works on it just as long as I never have to.

[bex]

i think in one aspect it is good, when i tried to sign up for the navy one of the roles i put down for was to be on a sub and was told straight away that it wasnt going to happen, reasons were

A) nuclear reactors and higher CO2 affect womens health greater than mens, esp the reproductive health

b) there are no separate areas and i would have had to share

c) there is a no touching rule that is impossible to keep on a sub

d) having one tiny locker wouldnt be enough for womens monthly cycles to store everything needed.

i understood this and i worry that the cost of making all this possible is going to stretch the already limited funding to the forces. would rather send the money to the front line.

as for the emotional side of things, the women that will be wanting to go under water will be as strong as their male counterparts nad i would hope that the men going with would be respectful and not bully the woman to breaking point.

in the long run i think it will be a good thing that women are allowed the experience

[Aaron]

Can't see any problem on submarines. Not in infantry though (any decent infantry anyway ), because 99.99% of women just wouldn't be physically string or fit enough to justify the massive logistical implications. When 10% of women applicants could run any kind of distance with a 16 stone man over their shoulders then maybe it's worth considering.

[Mawsley]

I don't get the higher susceptibility to CO2 thing - now I know it's odourless but I'm smelling bullshit