Wet Belt. A Very Lucky Escape.

[Tinkicker]

Our 2022 Honda Civic was booked in for its 3rd service and first MOT today.  The Honda dealership is about 35 miles away, mostly motorway.

 

So off we popped down to M62, headed for the M1.  Nearing Castleford, the car made a beep noise, the cruise control dropped offline and just about every warning light on the dash lit up.  It was cycling through warnings for every system, from check engine light, to cruise control and even climate control.  All amber, no reds, so we continued, albeit at a slightly less frenetic pace.

 

Dropped car off and was told to return around lunchtime to pick it up, meanwhile we went for a walk around Pugneys waterpark, just over the road from the dealership.

Halfway round we got a phone call...

 

We checked the fault codes and basically your cambelt is knackered.  We need to take out the engine and disassemble it to check what has gone wrong... We have a courtesy car ready and waiting for you.

 

On our return, a bit more info.  We will remove the engine to have a closer look and send the parts to Honda under warranty.  It is most likely that Honda will supply a brand new complete engine to fit as they may want to look closer, this is the lowest mileage belt failure we ever encountered.

 

And the mileage of this failed belt? At the time the dash lit up, 7564 miles.  Yes that is seven thousand miles from new, with a fully main dealer stamped service book.

 

Another three weeks and the car would be out of warranty.  I think the gods were smiling on us today.

[Fiddlesticks]

Wow. Maybe something misaligned causing early failure. Good you got it sorted with them.

[Fozzie]

I'm genuinely shocked to hear Honda used a wet belt!

 

What is wrong with a chain? It barely seems worth it to me even as a cost saving exercise. 

[Simon Davey]

That's incredible!! Not only were you lucky with the timing towards warranty end, but your dealer are really on point with get it sorted.

[Tinkicker]

You and me both.  The wetbelt is the reason that next service, I will not be returning to get the car back.  I am not keeping it after the pcp is finished.  This is the third new Honda car I have owned, an Accord and a older version Civic previously.  This model has been a very big disappointment.  It is nowhere near as well built as the previous cars.  In fact our Ford Fiesta is a far better car.

 

Year six or 75,000 mile service is a £2000 plus affair to replace the wet belt.

 

Another ridiculously modern state of affairs.  Wet belts were first touted to last the life of the vehicle.  They are a pox on the motor industry.

Back in the day when I was a field service techie, I could change the cambelt on a Ford 1.8TD Endura engine, on my back, in the customers car park in 35 minutes.

Cost of belt £30.  Cost of labour at a dealers 1 hr.  This was in 1993.

 

The world has gone mad.

Edited February 7 by Tinkicker

[manxie49]

WOW ...... Both lucky and unlucky! Unlucky with the timing belt, but damned lucky the car was still under warranty.  Not a good advert for Honda.

[Tinkicker]

To be fair, it does not have a good life.  I drive to work 4 days a week, barely 4 miles each way,  hence the ridiculously low mileage.

I do go the longer and faster way round to try and get some heat into the oil, albeit only a few hundred yards longer,  but in the winter, the temp gauge barely moves before I get to work, and that is with the climate control temp turned right down.  Not a problem in summer.  Engine is at normal temp.

On a weekend, I do try to give it a longer run into Selby, to evaporate as much moisture out of the oil as possible, but despite this, I bet the oil has a high moisture content.

 

Not good for the engine, but nothing I can do about it.

 

Last time it was on a motorway was probably four or five months ago, I think that has a big bearing on the issue of why it failed when it did.  Sustained higher than normal RPMs. 

Edited February 7 by Tinkicker

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

Honda forums seem to have several horror stories about this wet belt. It's a stupid design. You'd have thought with the experience Ford have had with their Ecoboom engine and the Peugeot/Vauxhall PureCrap engine manufacturers would realise they are a total disaster. 

[billysugger]

I know someone that works on/deals with Ford's, and we were talking about engine development, wankel engines etc,and this wet belt fiasco. If he gets vehicles in with this fault they just change the whole engine, as apparently it's cheaper than stripping it to bits to change the belt. According to him it's because of the Euro5 regs on emissions they have no choice but to use wet belts

[S-Westerly]

The Greens will get you one way or another.

[Tinkicker]

Wet belts are cheaper than chains or gears, yet are more efficient in transferring power than standard dry belts.  That is the thinking. 

 

Give me a geared cam drive any day.  There is a reason why heavy duty diesels do not have camchains or belts...

Edited February 8 by Tinkicker

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

It's not very environmentally friendly when engines die at low mileages. 

 

In the long run a decent chain properly serviced will last for huge mileages. 

[billysugger]

My cam chain in the 500 has done close to 130.000 miles yet was perfectly fine when checked during a engine rebuild after busting a con rod 

[KiwiBob]

Wet belts are a pain!.. Wife's Peugeot 208 has one .. The belt slowly disintegrates and clogs the oil strainer in the sump causing low oil pressure .. supposed to last 60,000 miles .. It lasted 30,000 miles.

 

 

 

 

[curlylegend]

10 hours ago, KiwiBob said:

Wet belts are a pain!.. Wife's Peugeot 208 has one .. The belt slowly disintegrates and clogs the oil strainer in the sump causing low oil pressure .. supposed to last 60,000 miles .. It lasted 30,000 miles.

 

 

 

 

Is there not a chain conversion kit for these cars ?

[Bender]

The ford engine doesn't need to come out to do the belt, ford have several issues with engines, one of them being a water leak which causes so much damage they just scrap the engine.

 

The wet belts do go way before they are supposed to, in theory they are quieter produce less dust and save a tiny amount of energy, in practice the amount of junked engines and expensive repairs have far outweighed any advantage.

 

Some are fine but plenty are not, full service history means bugger all.

 

Niece had hers go in a Peugeot just under 30k, friends ford pickup went 42k that was junked as it went whilst on motorway, both under warranty with full dealer service.

 

They have actually improved on a problem, timing belts used to go but they were pretty good for mileage they were supposed to do, with a few exceptions, now it's like Russian roulette.

 

Everyone is looking at electric now so not much effort going into petrol engine design and nothing going into derv.

 

@Tinkickerhope it all goes well

[Tinkicker]

Dayco have a lot to answer for....

[curlylegend]

Something like this    www.lymmengineparts.co.uk/lower-wet-belt-to-chain-conversion-kit-for-ford-1-8-tdci-1562244

 

And I'm sure I've seem similar kits for Peugeots ?

 

Don't have any experience of them though. When I was in the trade, cars were still quite good, not jokes like they're turning out now.

[Fender1515]

Having read about Tinkicker experience with his Civic cam chain belt issues,  I have just checked what's fitted to my HR-V, relieved, it's a clunky metal ting.

In my experience, my last three vehicles have been Honda's two civics before the HR-V, I haven't had any significant issues with reliability or build quality, I hope fate is not about to bite me in the arse!

[JRH]

Wet belts are a nightmare. The oil, if not changed regularly and with the correct type, caused the belts to shed particles which contaminates the oil.

With Ford the wet belts are on the Ecoboost 3 cylinder 1.0 ltr engines but not the 1.5. 

And the 1.5 Ecoboost can have their own problems with coolant leaks 
But they are fitted to some of the transit vans. It’s not easy to look at as type of engine and know what is what.

i believe a lot of the PSA development engines are also wet belt.

even some engines that have dry belts or chain sometimes have wet belts to drive the oil pumps.

All to save some decibels and fractions of MPG and CO2.

 

[billysugger]

It's the ecoboost 3 that my mate John was talking about. According to him he just swaps the whole engine, and I think the other one gets returned to Ford

[RideWithStyles]

As JRH and Tin mostly mentioned.

belts are just a cost down option for the design and manufacturer, cheaper, slightly quieter (though depending on the engine), lighter, better for a garage. Soley Ends up being the customers/owners long term problem, so to my mind it’s a one finger salute to the customer that you paid them for.

 

back in the day when Germans designed their engines early on properly 80-2010 (at a push), they also had chains driven engines lasted yonks without maintenance needed for the timing, yes it costed more to make, weighed a bit more, made the tiniest touch more noise that even a db reading noticed (before engine noise damping was seriously considered for tougher euro regs). But over the life of the engine more than paid for itself, made them last and give premium touches.

i had a e36 beemer, 2.5 six, chain driven,automatic lasted 200,000 before a water ford and several hundred miles afterwards killed it, all it mostly had was normal services to it. I have no doubt it would have easily done the same mileage again.

 

ford ecoBOOM as they are well called , more likely an internal leaking will grenade the engine before the belt needs changing.

 

yeah not a fan of what Honda are doing in bikes and car of the last 15 or so years. 
 

PSA…..unless your French and so home brew dedicated i seriously don’t understand how someone put up with their bs or why they still can’t build a car correctly after all these years? Sis in law picked up a brand new scenic …the key card buttons dont do what you press, a few weeks into ownership and the boot self opens in the middle of the night all by itself like a dog suddenly taking a shit, the same issues with the megane and lugoona 20 plus years ago!!!

Edited February 12 by RideWithStyles

[Tinkicker]

Turned out it was the VVT actuator that shat itself.

 

I cannot blame honda for that really, Purely down to how the vehicle is being used.

This winter, unlike the last two, the car has not been getting as many long fast runs.

 

New big gates are a pain to open for a quick run into selby, and we have been jumping into the mrs's fiesta which is parked out on the road...

 

That needs to be remidied...

[RideWithStyles]

I still would blame Honda for it…they put it on there, the car should be viewed under most circumstances or not, hell that’s why the test them is 50+ and -20c temps, most don’t live like that but it’s tested for one example.

Sounds like a cop out and reminds me of with the old Alfa/fiat selespeed bs and the one from the Germans, same problem but it was slated and under question.

 

should it be a serviceable time line part? If it’s that essential then it is, why isn’t it?

its an oil pressure valve unit only a few things screw them up, poor oil, wear, shite units, lack of service or unknown 

Early Noise/engine driveablility issue.

pretty shit if its had little use to wear out yet failed miserably!
 

Edited February 13 by RideWithStyles

[Tinkicker]

I know being an "engine man" myself, that I am treating this honda most cruelly this year.  I was not happy in the years previously, but as mentioned, for the simpest of reasons, this has been the worst.  A bloody set of big gates to keep the missus's irish wolfhound contained within...

 

Sure honda could look at all scenarios and made the spool valve out of Ti, as well of as look at every other aspect of every other possible scenario.

 

the cost of such a modest vehicle would be just shy of £500,000.  Obvously, that would not fly.

I am an "engine man" and I know in this instance, the fault is my own lazyness in not opening those gates twice a week on the weekend.

 

A big part of my job was once forensically inspecting and analysing (and 75% of the time rejecting) warranty claims for bus engines departed from this world unexpectedly. 

I have to apply the self same logic and discipline to my own situation.  Early Cam belt failure, Honda problem.  Crap duty cycle and a resulting corroded VVT actuator spool valve assembly is down to me. Of course, In my case, the circumstance is not sufficiently provable to apportion blame in a court of law, so I am not picking up the tab; Honda is, but be under no illusions, I killed that engine.  Honda knows that 10% of vehicles will suffer this duty cycle, and adjust the retail price accordingly.

 

 

 

I learned and will alter my behaviour.  Missus groans about opening "her" gates on a weekend. " Lets go in the fiesta, its easier".  I will no longer give in. Get em open, the car needs exercise.

 

I bet most would never imagine a set of big wooden gates causing an engine failure... Welcome to the esetoric world of the automotive engineer...

Edited February 14 by Tinkicker