EU... in or out

[Tango]

I saw somewhere that it will take 2 years to disentangle the UK from the EU if the vote goes out. But once the process has started there's no going back.

[Joeman]

I saw somewhere that it will take 2 years to disentangle the UK from the EU if the vote goes out. But once the process has started there's no going back.

 

If the UK exiting is that bad for the rest of Europe/world as we are lead to beleive, I'm sure they will let us back in a heartbeat.

[Stu]

scare mongering again!

if you leave you cant come back

but you should really stay

[MarkW]

Perhaps the biggest difficulty in this debate is knowing who to trust. With no false modesty whatsoever I shall preface my comments by saying that I am middle class, have a PhD and Grade 8 piano. Ergo if you're not and you haven't, and you disagree with me, you're probably wrong. Clear? OK...

I think part of the problem is that to some people, voting to leave Europe sounds patriotic. I was talking to a couple of blokes in a hotel bar over the weekend, and they were saying that our membership of the EU was nothing but an insult to the memory of all the servicemen who had given their lives in WWII. It was as though they thought that the sole point of our involvement in the war was to go abroad and kill foreigners, and that cooperating with Europeans in any way (other than in the occasional joint effort to go further afield and kill bearded foreigners) was a national disgrace.

I suggested that what those men were actually doing was fighting against a hateful, baseless and intellectually impotent ideology that found voice in a barely-educated failure of a man with fatuous notions of national and racial superiority - views with seemed to have some similarity to the arguments they were advancing for us leaving Europe. Just as an aside, it is a historical point that if 'Mein Kampf' hadn't been tedious to the point of unreadability more people might actually have read it, and the danger would have been spotted all the sooner. I have read it, and just found myself shaking my head in disbelief at how a country that had produced some of the finest artists, musicians and philosophers (with the obvious exception of Martin Heidegger - see, I told you I was clever) could possibly have been taken in by such brainless drivel.

Anyway - neither here nor there. It seems to me that the biggest dichotomy in this debate is not between the 'ins' and the 'outs' because both camps have offered us more than enough over-emotional bullshit, from decimating the NHS if we stay to precipitating World War III if we leave. The split is more accurately between those whose opinions are informed by the facts, and those who select the facts to fit their opinions.

I shall now consolidate my position as resident cultured sage by playing a little Chopin upon the pianoforte. Or at least I would if I had a pianoforte. I used to live near a Trusthouse Forte, but that's different of course. Come to think of it, since I don't own a piano I don't know why I spent all those years learning the bloody thing.

Yes, drink has been taken...

Edited May 18, 2016 by MarkW

[Guest]

If we leave.. why on earth would we want to go back.. do you think Farage and his merry band of muppets will change their minds? or the... lets assume 51% Plus who voted to leave will suddenly change their minds?

If anything, attitudes towards Europe would harden.. "little england against the world."

If the Tories actually considered something as insane as that.. they would be out within weeks. They would tear themselves apart. Cameron would lose a vote of no confidence and toddle off to the house of lords. I would also expect with that amount of anarchy that UKIP might actually win seats in a rushed General Election. and delight in causing even more havoc.

lovely.

[fullscreenaging]

This is long. Put the kettle on, make a brew and watch. Watch again on June 22nd then go and vote OUT.

The alternative is bloody scary!!

https://www.brexitthemovie.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Guest]

Written presented and directed by Martin Durkin.

yes.. everyone should watch this. definitely.

his bio on IMDB says it all.

Martin Durkin was born on January 23, 1962 as Martin Richard Durkin. He is a producer and director, known for NASA's Unexplained Files (2012), Dr Tatiana's Sex Advice to All Creation (2005) and How Do They Do It? (2006).

For some reason they left out his 2003 masterpiece "Extreme Ironing : Pressing for victory"

[RantMachine]

Normally I wouldn't quote The Guardian because it's a load of bourgeois crap, but someone pressed me to read this article the other day and while the relevance to this topic is limited, it was interesting to find out that so much of the factually inaccurate components of anti-EU sentiment were spread by Boris Johnson himself, long before the referendum became a hot topic.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/13/boris-johnson-donald-trump-post-truth-politician

[MarkW]

Most of the time, Boris's particular brand of shambling buffoonery is harmless enough, and even mildly amusing. There are other times, such as this, when it is patently imbecilic, blatantly self-serving, and downright offensive.

To compare the aims of Europe with those of Hitler is the surest sign yet that he credits his supporters with so little intelligence that he knows there is no danger of them over-thinking anything he says, just as long as it chimes with their simplistic anti-kraut weltanschauung. I can't tell you how sick I am of seeing pro-Brexit images of war cemeteries captioned with pseudo-patriotic tripe about dishonouring those who fought in WWII. What they fought for was an end to a corrosive and insidious ultra-nationalism that doesn't seem that far removed from the British supremacist views of some Brexit supporters, and the vast majority of veterans who have expressed their views in public are firmly for staying in.

Europe was founded on the notion that countries that trade with each other are less likely to go to war with each other. It is not a perfect institution, and every Member State has their own issues with parts of it, but believing that membership dishonours our war veterans is about as wrong as you can get.

But Boris is wiley enough to know that a dunce's vote counts the same as anyone elses, and that a few simplistic little pabulums are all it takes to get their dander up. When you consider the stupidity of the average man on the street, and then consider that half the population is more stupid even than that, one of the very few shortcomings of democracy comes into sharper focus.

[Guest]

Very well said Mark!

[Mr Fro]

I think Mark should be the TMBF candidate for PM.

[rob m]

Got my voting card yesterday. Shame I can't vote 'in' already.

[Six30]

Most of the time, Boris's particular brand of shambling buffoonery is harmless enough, and even mildly amusing. There are other times, such as this, when it is patently imbecilic, blatantly self-serving, and downright offensive.

To compare the aims of Europe with those of Hitler is the surest sign yet that he credits his supporters with so little intelligence that he knows there is no danger of them over-thinking anything he says, just as long as it chimes with their simplistic anti-kraut weltanschauung. I can't tell you how sick I am of seeing pro-Brexit images of war cemeteries captioned with pseudo-patriotic tripe about dishonouring those who fought in WWII. What they fought for was an end to a corrosive and insidious ultra-nationalism that doesn't seem that far removed from the British supremacist views of some Brexit supporters, and the vast majority of veterans who have expressed their views in public are firmly for staying in.

Europe was founded on the notion that countries that trade with each other are less likely to go to war with each other. It is not a perfect institution, and every Member State has their own issues with parts of it, but believing that membership dishonours our war veterans is about as wrong as you can get.

But Boris is wiley enough to know that a dunce's vote counts the same as anyone elses, and that a few simplistic little pabulums are all it takes to get their dander up. When you consider the stupidity of the average man on the street, and then consider that half the population is more stupid even than that, one of the very few shortcomings of democracy comes into sharper focus.

[johnakay]

this was copied off FB.

I'm not into politics, and I dont pretend I know whats going on, politically, half the time, but, I know whats right and whats wrong, and I think I'm pretty good at judging people.

I always voted Labour, because that was the thing to do, living in the North East.

My dad was North East secretary for the Transport and General Workers Union, and the Shop Steward for the TGW at Tees Dock, where he worked.

He was staunch Labour, and if they were good enough for him, they were good enough for me.

Years passed, my dad died, and I carried on voting Labour, UNTIL Tony Blair became the leader.

Never trusted him. He was Smarmy, and definately not representative of the working classes he was supposed to represent.

Then we got Gordon Brown, then Milliband. All cut from the same cloth. Now we have Corbyn, a joke of a man who refuses to sing the national anthem, but wants to serve in her majestys government.

Since Blair, I never voted Labour again. Actually, I never voted at all. Could never vote for the Tories or LibDems. Could never trust a Tory and the other mob were just making up the numbers, but had no real policies because they themselves, never actually believed they'd get in, but were too busy trying to satisfy everybody.

I, like the rest of the country, just plodded on, whoever was running the country. I never benefitted from them, even under Labour, who were supposed to look after me.

Now this referendum has come up. I remember when we went into the EU, sort of. We had to do a project at school about it. Back then, there were 7 (or 9) countries in it.... and thats as much notice as I took.

Now, we are being told we are better off staying in. If we leave, jobs will be lost. House prices will fall. Inflation will rise. The country will be at risk from attack etc etc etc.

This is where all the previous stuff I wrote is heading.....

Since joining the EU in 1973, the Dock Labour scheme has been scrapped (this would have guaranteed me a job when I was 21, on fantastic wages)

The docks were privatised, and the dockers are on just above minimum wage.

The whole of the British coal industry has gone.

Nearly all of the shipbuilding has gone.

ICI has gone, sold off to Americans (who ran it into the ground and laid off thousands)

British Steel has gone. Sold off to far eastern companies. Again, thousands laid off year after year until there wasnt the workforce to make it viable.

All our power companies, and possibly the water companies as well, are foreign owned (Even British Gas)

Coachworks, that build our trains in Derby and York, have had to close or lay thousands off, because our governments gave the work to foreign coach builders (they said they had to put it out to tender. EU rules.

We are now living in a country were no job is secure.

Workers rights dont exist (dont believe the governments spiel about we are better off in the EU to protect our workers rights).

If you want to claim unfair dismissal nowadays, you need to have worked at that company for 2 years (unless you are claiming for discrimination).

There are more people working through agencies now than ever before, and, whereas in the past, agency workers were on good money, they aren't anymore.

Agencies are killing the economy. You cant get a mortgage, a bank loan, a car or credit to buy goods, if you work through an agency.

Zero hours contracts ! Where did these appear from ? Where were the EU workers rights that day ?

Why are they still being allowed to be used, and why are the government allowed to sanction people who refuse to take these jobs ?

Housing.

Young couples cant afford mortgages nowadays, unless they are both in well paid, secure jobs (as secure as jobs can be nowadays)

God help those living down south. Prices are bad enough in the north.

Those with money, like investors, businessmen etc, will buy these cheaper house and make a killing when the prices go back up (which they will)

Inflation will rise.

Thats why its called inflation.

I have recently found out the EU control what price we pay for petrol.

Our National Security is at risk outside of the EU.

Really !!!! European countries opened their borders to thousands, if not millions of migrants, allowing them to pass through wherever they wanted to go, unchecked.

We are more at risk being part of the EU than we'll ever be if we leave. We will still have the back up of NATO, should we ever need it (they'll need us more than we'll need them) as we will still be part of Europe.

Lets also not forget, that the EU banned punishment in schools. Ive always said, since that happened, we, as a country, have gone downhill. Kids now have no respect for teachers, for the police, for their elders. They are practically feral.

National service should be brought back, to at least give them a chance in life.

The European Court Of Human Rights.

Oh yeah. This is the court that lets hate preachers, foreign criminals, rapists, muderers and paedophiles waste our money by us wanting to deport them, and they say, no, you cant. The accused has a cat that wont be looked after if hes deported. It would be laughable if it wasnt so serious.

The NHS. The jewel in the UK's crown. Being run into the ground by successive governments, in order for it to be no longer cost effective, so that it can be sold off to the private sector.

Currently bursting at the seams, because the whole world wants a piece of it. Why suffer when you can come over here and be treated for free, even though you have never contributed a penny towards it.

I know everyone has their own mind, and will vote however they want, but I just hope the majority of this country see sense on referendum day, and do the right thing for past, present and future generations.

We managed well enough before we joined, and we'll manage well enough if we leave.

Rant Over

[Guest]

Thats not a rant about the EU.

Its a rant about Thatcher and Thatcherism..... from the very start.

The National Dock labour scheme.. abolished by Thatcher in 1989.

Did the writer of this twaddle not do even the smallest amount of research? his memory is appalling.

coal.. utilities being sold off.. all thats missing is blaming the poll tax on Brussels. talk about rewriting history!!

I give up.

[RantMachine]

Thats not a rant about the EU.

Its a rant about Thatcher and Thatcherism..... from the very start.

The National Dock labour scheme.. abolished by Thatcher in 1989.

Did the writer of this twaddle not do even the smallest amount of research? his memory is appalling.

coal.. utilities being sold off.. all thats missing is blaming the poll tax on Brussels. talk about rewriting history!!

I give up.

http://farmingafrica.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/like1.png

[MarkW]

"I'm not into politics, and I don't pretend I know what's going on."

A candid statement, amply supported by everything that followed.

[Nublust]

The thing that really bugs me about both sides is they keep on making doomsday statements without ever actually explaining why it will mean I spend the rest of my days crying in a ball in the corner while the rest of Europe prospers/falls apart.

[mpl]

This appeared on my timeline so thought I'd share on here.

Alright, you filthy animals. I don't normally do this, because I believe that everyone should have the right to vote how they want at elections, but a) this ain't an election, it's a referendum so go shit yourself, and b) I honestly believe that the stakes are too high for me not to get involved here. If I can influence even one person with this post, then I'll feel like I've done something important. As a result, feel free to share this far and wide as I've done a veritable fuckload of research and I don't want all my hard work going to waste.

So, I'll put my cards on the table: I believe, very very strongly, that we need to stay in the EU. I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with David 'PigFellatio' Cameron, but in this unfortunate case I am, and here's why.

We stand to gain SO MUCH from staying in the EU. "How much", you're (probably not) asking? Well, I made a convenient list for your perusal, WITH sources, so you can't be a twat and say 'you're making that up!' and froth at the mouth like a rabid ****.

I know people on the internet like listicles with clickbait titles, so here are "14 Reasons Why We Shouldn't Leave The EU That Everyone Should Know! You Won't Believe #8!":

1) The EU provides easy access to 1/3 of the world's markets by value (in other words, the EU's combined market value is 1/3 of the entire world's, and we can tap into it whenever the f**k we want). [1] It also gives UK businesses preferential market access to over 50 countries OUTSIDE the EU, including some of the fastest-growing economies in the world like South Korea and South Africa. [2]

2) The EU gives us better product safety. You know, so your toddler doesn't impale him/herself on a shittily designed toy, or swallow a load of poisonous plastic. [3]

3) The EU gives structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline (hello, Cornwall). [4]

4) The EU gave us lead-free petrol. [5]

5) The EU gives us cheaper mobile charges. [6] It also gives us cheaper air travel. [7] f**k yeah, cheap things!

6) The EU gives us cleaner beaches, rivers and air (hello again, Cornwall). [8]

7) The EU gives us improved consumer protection and food labelling, so you actually know what it's in your Chicken McNuggets (hint: it's chicken. It wasn't always chicken, though). [9]

8) The EU has helped break up monopolies. [10] If you don't know why monopolies are a Very Bad Thing, try playing the popular board game 'Monopoly' and see how many friends you have left when you win.

9) The EU gives us cross-border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling, and terrorism. [11]

10) Being a member of the EU means no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market, as well as the freedom to travel, live and work across Europe. [12] This one is particularly important for me as someone who likes to live, work and travel abroad. Do you have ANY IDEA how f**king great it is to be able to travel and work visa-free?! Having to a get a visa for every single country you enter is a nightmare, believe me. If you've ever tried to travel around Asia, Africa or South America, you'll understand what I'm saying.

11) The EU creates and helps uphold all kinds of awesome human rights, such as equal pay legislation, holiday entitlement, and the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime. [13] I'd also like to point out that it's some of these same human rights that David 'PorkTwatter' Cameron tried to erode back in 2014, with the EU playing a major role in stopping him. [14]

12) The EU creates and upholds all kinds of great animal welfare legislation; it has the strongest wildlife protection laws in the world and contributes to improved animal welfare in food production. [15]

13) The EU funds incredible scientific research and industrial collaboration (including, most recently, a project that may be the catalyst for a cure for breast cancer being found in the next few years, I shit you not). [16]

14) Finally, and arguably most importantly, the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after many years of bloodshed. [17] It has also assisted in the extraordinary social, political and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. [18]

SOURCES:

[1] http://news.cbi.org.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/eu-business-facts/10-facts-about-…/

[2] http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-1080_en.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[3] http://ec.europa.eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/general_product_safety_d…/index_en.htm

[4] https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/european-structural-and-inve…/

[5] http://ec.europa.eu/environme" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/…/project/Projects/index.cfm…

[6] https://www.theguardian.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/europe-abolishes-mobile-phone…

[7] http://europa.eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/citizens/travel/passeng…/air/index_en.htm

[8] http://www.theguardian.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/england-beaches-bathing-waters…

[9] http://ec.europa.eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/la…/labelling_legislation/index_en.htm

[10] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/European_Union_competition_law (I know I'm not supposed to use Wikipedia as a source for its less-than-rigorous academic standards, but f**k YOU I'm not in uni anymore, I'll do what I like).

[11] http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…

[12] http://ec.europa.eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/borders-and-…/visa-policy/index_en.htm

[13] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/European_Convention_on_Human_R…

[14] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/David-Camerons-plan-to-scrap-t…

[15] http://ec.europa.eu/food/animals/welfare/index_en.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[16] http://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/94691_en.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[17] The Second World War, motherfucker. Read a history book.

[18] The Cold War, motherfucker. Read a history book.

And now, let's take a moment to address some of the arguments for leaving the EU. Apart from the fact that I can't find a single reputable study that suggests we'd be any better off outside of the EU (and believe me, I've looked; I want to research my counterarguments as thoroughly as my arguments), the most persuasive arguments I've found are what I'm going to term 'the trade argument' and 'the immigration argument'.

The trade argument goes as follows: if we left the EU, we could negotiate a sort of 'amicable divorce' where we somehow retain strong trading links with the EU while not being subject to its laws. Many people point to Canada as a good example of this model, which recently negotiated a CETA (Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement- do I have to google EVERYTHING for you?) with the EU. I have two retorts to this argument. My first retort: Canada was never a part of the EU in the first place. To return to the divorce analogy outlined above- whereby the EU and the U.K. are a sort of 'married couple' and trade is their kids- the U.K. seeking a CETA after leaving the EU would be like a nasty, messy divorce where one parent uses the kids as a weapon against the other, threatening to take them away whenever their demands aren't met. Canada's CETA, meanwhile, is like a married couple approaching someone else to have a threesome at a swinger's party, which sounds a lot more fun and exciting, I'm sure you'll agree. My second retort to the above argument is simple: why even take the risk? If we stay in the EU, our trade with them will continue to be prosperous and full of great sex while the kids are asleep (okay, I've taken the analogy too far now). If we leave, however, there's a chance any trade agreement could fail catastrophically and leave our economy in a shitstorm. In fact, I would argue the likes of Germany, France and other leading EU nations would not simply let us pick and choose what rules and trade agreements we adhere to, so the likelihood of us being absolutely fine, trade-wise, after leaving the EU seems overly optimistic. Plus negotiating a CETA of any kind could take years and have a completely uncertain outcome. Again, why take the risk? An additional point: arguments no. 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, and 12 above are examples of really great laws and regulations the EU has introduced. If you say you want to leave the EU so we have autonomy over our own laws, you know that you're effectively handing control of our country over to David 'HideTheSausageLiterally' Cameron, don't you? In terms of making laws that benefit all of us, I trust the EU way more than that guy.

The immigration argument tends to centre around the whole 'visa-free work and travel' thing, and is generally espoused by people terrified of dem immigantz stealin are jobz. Alternatively it's espoused by people afraid of terrorists being able to come here more easily, but for that I'd refer you to point no. 9 above; we're safer from terrorism in the EU because we can share intelligence and resources with other countries more easily. But back to the 'stealing our jobs' fear; while it's true that technically speaking there could be an influx of foreigners coming to claim your particular job at any moment, just remember, we've been part of the EU for 43 years now and it hasn't happened yet, despite what the mainstream media may tell you (and you DEFINITELY shouldn't trust those guys; more on that later). Seriously, do you know ANYONE, personally, that has had their job stolen by a foreigner? Be honest now. I'd be willing to wager that you don't, and I'll explain why that is too: the immigrants that are coming here are not stealing YOUR jobs, specifically. They're either starting their own businesses (in which case they're actually creating jobs), or they're skilled labourers taking jobs there just aren't enough trained British people to take (such as doctors or surgeons), or they're unskilled labourers taking the jobs that you don't want (like toilet cleaning or washing dishes). Incidentally, about a year ago I taught English to some Eastern European immigrants who worked in a salad-packing factory in Lichfield. One Latvian girl was actually a teacher back home, but she was making more money as a salad-packer here than she was as a teacher in Latvia(!)- the point being that unskilled immigrant workers are generally happy to work shitty menial jobs that no British person wants, and your cushy 9-to-5 office job is not under threat. Not even a little bit- so don't worry your xenophobic little head about it. Oh, and one last thing on this subject, to paraphrase Louis CK: maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're shit at your job.

If you've made it thus far through this absolute essay of a post, congratulations! You're nearly at the end! But before I go, I just want to hit you with one final thought. Over 80% of UK newspapers are owned by five right-wing media billionaires (aka five massive cuntstacks): Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail), Rupert Murdoch (Sun/Times), Richard Desmond (Express), and the Barclay Brothers (Telegraph). Murdoch is an Australian living in New York and Rothermere lives in France, while the Barclay Brothers live in the tax havens of Monaco and Guernsey. All of them use tax haven entities to avoid UK taxes. And guess who wants to stop billionaires using tax havens to avoid paying their taxes? That's right, the EU. So of COURSE the British newspapers are trying to persuade you to leave the EU; it benefits their owners personally. The moral of the story is, don't gather your views from newspapers. Do some research like I have with this post, you lazy twonknoggin.

In conclusion: we're in a really great position right now. We're part of the EU with all the benefits that entails, but without being tied to their notoriously unstable currency. Leaving the EU would not only be hypocritical since we spent so much time telling Scotland they shouldn't leave the UK this time last year with all that lovely 'better together' rhetoric, it might also be downright stupid and harmful to our economy.

tl;dr version: Vote to stay in the EU, you filthy animals. Because reasons. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.

EDIT: thank you to everybody who made me internet famous for the day. You're all sweethearts. If you'd like to read more of my filth-ridden political thoughts, please tune in to my new blog.

https://glwtf.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[MarkW]

The thing that really bugs me about both sides is they keep on making doomsday statements without ever actually explaining why it will mean I spend the rest of my days crying in a ball in the corner while the rest of Europe prospers/falls apart.

The fact is that nobody really knows what's going to happen if we leave, and there have been plenty of histrionics from both sides. But in general the problem with the 'Out' campaign, as is abundantly clear from this thread, is that most of them haven't got any grasp of the fundamentals necessary to arrive at a sensible position, whether that be 'In' or 'Out'. They will insist on the importance of Britain leaving the EU in one sentence and then go on to demonstrate a near perfect ignorance of how Europe actually works in the next: no idea what the European Commission is, no idea what the Council of Europe is, how the European Court of Human Rights is constituted, how the European Convention on Human Rights works, no clue how regulations and directives are developed, promulgated and brought into force - nothing. Consequently they routinely blame the EU for things that have nothing whatsoever to do with it (one of the posts above is a perfect illustration of this, citing a whole catalogue of irrelevances before suggesting that the catalyst for our supposed decline into moral turpitude was when Europe stopped teachers from hitting children) and overlook the fact that most of the things they dislike about the EU (financial contribution, free movement of labour, supremacy of EU law etc) are things we would still have to put up with if we wanted to have access to the single market after we left. They are adamant that a deal struck from outside of Europe would be better for us than one struck from within it, although the precise mechanism by which this would be achieved is something they are rather less clear about. But then lack of clarity is at the heart of the matter, and is something we need to be alert to: woolly, imprecise language invariably betrays woolly, imprecise thoughts.

Finally, ignorance will be given a gloss of respectability by being dressed up as patriotism, usually with some tripe along the lines of "I don't know much about politics, but I know what's right for Britain". The reality is if that for anyone who doesn't properly understand how Europe works, by far the best thing they can do for their country on polling day is stay at home.

Edited May 27, 2016 by MarkW

[mpl]

The thing that really bugs me about both sides is they keep on making doomsday statements without ever actually explaining why it will mean I spend the rest of my days crying in a ball in the corner while the rest of Europe prospers/falls apart.

The fact is that nobody really knows what's going to happen if we leave, and there have been plenty of histrionics from both sides. But in general the problem with the 'Out' campaign, as is abundantly clear from this thread, is that most of them haven't got any grasp of the fundamentals necessary to arrive at a sensible position, whether that be 'In' or 'Out'. They will insist on the importance of Britain leaving the EU in one sentence and then go on to demonstrate a near perfect ignorance of how Europe actually works in the next: no idea what the European Commission is, no idea what the Council of Europe is, how the European Court of Human Rights is constituted, how the European Convention on Human Rights works, no clue how regulations and directives are developed, promulgated and brought into force - nothing. Consequently they routinely blame the EU for things that have nothing whatsoever to do with it (one of the posts above is a perfect illustration of this, citing a whole catalogue of irrelevances before suggesting that the catalyst for our supposed decline into moral turpitude was when Europe stopped teachers from hitting children) and overlook the fact that most of the things they dislike about the EU (financial contribution, free movement of labour, supremacy of EU law etc) are things we would still have to put up with if we wanted to have access to the single market after we left. They are adamant that a deal struck from outside of Europe would be better for us than one struck from within it, although the precise mechanism by which this would be achieved is something they are rather less clear about. But then lack of clarity is at the heart of the matter, and is something we need to be alert to: woolly, imprecise language invariably betrays woolly, imprecise thoughts.

Finally, ignorance will be given a gloss of respectability by being dressed up as patriotism, usually with some tripe along the lines of "I don't know much about politics, but I know what's right for Britain". The reality is if that for anyone who doesn't properly understand how Europe works, by far the best thing you can do for your country on polling day is stay at home.

 

I said to someone some while ago, the vast majority of people are already firmly IN or OUT without fully knowing why and nothing has since happened to make me change my mind over that statement.

I bet there are very few people who have actually changed their mind one way or the other.

[RantMachine]

Facebook just showed me this. It's a long read, but it's fair - the guy has put a lot of reading into both sides of the argument before making his case. Well, and it's also vaguely funny.

 

Alright, you filthy animals. I don't normally do this, because I believe that everyone should have the right to vote how they want at elections, but a) this ain't an election, it's a referendum so go shit yourself, and b) I honestly believe that the stakes are too high for me not to get involved here. If I can influence even one person with this post, then I'll feel like I've done something important. As a result, feel free to share this far and wide as I've done a veritable fuckload of research and I don't want all my hard work going to waste.

So, I'll put my cards on the table: I believe, very very strongly, that we need to stay in the EU. I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with David 'PigFellatio' Cameron, but in this unfortunate case I am, and here's why.

We stand to gain SO MUCH from staying in the EU. "How much", you're (probably not) asking? Well, I made a convenient list for your perusal, WITH sources, so you can't be a twat and say 'you're making that up!' and froth at the mouth like a rabid ****.

I know people on the internet like listicles with clickbait titles, so here are "14 Reasons Why We Shouldn't Leave The EU That Everyone Should Know! You Won't Believe #8!":

1) The EU provides easy access to 1/3 of the world's markets by value (in other words, the EU's combined market value is 1/3 of the entire world's, and we can tap into it whenever the f**k we want). [1] It also gives UK businesses preferential market access to over 50 countries OUTSIDE the EU, including some of the fastest-growing economies in the world like South Korea and South Africa. [2]

2) The EU gives us better product safety. You know, so your toddler doesn't impale him/herself on a shittily designed toy, or swallow a load of poisonous plastic. [3]

3) The EU gives structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline (hello, Cornwall). [4]

4) The EU gave us lead-free petrol. [5]

5) The EU gives us cheaper mobile charges. [6] It also gives us cheaper air travel. [7] f**k yeah, cheap things!

6) The EU gives us cleaner beaches, rivers and air (hello again, Cornwall). [8]

7) The EU gives us improved consumer protection and food labelling, so you actually know what it's in your Chicken McNuggets (hint: it's chicken. It wasn't always chicken, though). [9]

8) The EU has helped break up monopolies. [10] If you don't know why monopolies are a Very Bad Thing, try playing the popular board game 'Monopoly' and see how many friends you have left when you win.

9) The EU gives us cross-border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling, and terrorism. [11]

10) Being a member of the EU means no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market, as well as the freedom to travel, live and work across Europe. [12] This one is particularly important for me as someone who likes to live, work and travel abroad. Do you have ANY IDEA how f**king great it is to be able to travel and work visa-free?! Having to a get a visa for every single country you enter is a nightmare, believe me. If you've ever tried to travel around Asia, Africa or South America, you'll understand what I'm saying.

11) The EU creates and helps uphold all kinds of awesome human rights, such as equal pay legislation, holiday entitlement, and the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime. [13] I'd also like to point out that it's some of these same human rights that David 'PorkTwatter' Cameron tried to erode back in 2014, with the EU playing a major role in stopping him. [14]

12) The EU creates and upholds all kinds of great animal welfare legislation; it has the strongest wildlife protection laws in the world and contributes to improved animal welfare in food production. [15]

13) The EU funds incredible scientific research and industrial collaboration (including, most recently, a project that may be the catalyst for a cure for breast cancer being found in the next few years, I shit you not). [16]

14) Finally, and arguably most importantly, the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after many years of bloodshed. [17] It has also assisted in the extraordinary social, political and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. [18]

SOURCES:

[1] http://news.cbi.org.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/eu-business-facts/10-facts-about-…/

[2] http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-1080_en.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[3] http://ec.europa.eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/general_product_safety_d…/index_en.htm

[4] https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/european-structural-and-inve…/

[5] http://ec.europa.eu/environme" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/…/project/Projects/index.cfm…

[6] https://www.theguardian.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/europe-abolishes-mobile-phone…

[7] http://europa.eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/citizens/travel/passeng…/air/index_en.htm

[8] http://www.theguardian.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/england-beaches-bathing-waters…

[9] http://ec.europa.eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/la…/labelling_legislation/index_en.htm

[10] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/European_Union_competition_law (I know I'm not supposed to use Wikipedia as a source for its less-than-rigorous academic standards, but f**k YOU I'm not in uni anymore, I'll do what I like).

[11] http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…

[12] http://ec.europa.eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/borders-and-…/visa-policy/index_en.htm

[13] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/European_Convention_on_Human_R…

[14] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;…/David-Camerons-plan-to-scrap-t…

[15] http://ec.europa.eu/food/animals/welfare/index_en.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[16] http://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/94691_en.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[17] The Second World War, motherfucker. Read a history book.

[18] The Cold War, motherfucker. Read a history book.

And now, let's take a moment to address some of the arguments for leaving the EU. Apart from the fact that I can't find a single reputable study that suggests we'd be any better off outside of the EU (and believe me, I've looked; I want to research my counterarguments as thoroughly as my arguments), the most persuasive arguments I've found are what I'm going to term 'the trade argument' and 'the immigration argument'.

The trade argument goes as follows: if we left the EU, we could negotiate a sort of 'amicable divorce' where we somehow retain strong trading links with the EU while not being subject to its laws. Many people point to Canada as a good example of this model, which recently negotiated a CETA (Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement- do I have to google EVERYTHING for you?) with the EU. I have two retorts to this argument. My first retort: Canada was never a part of the EU in the first place. To return to the divorce analogy outlined above- whereby the EU and the U.K. are a sort of 'married couple' and trade is their kids- the U.K. seeking a CETA after leaving the EU would be like a nasty, messy divorce where one parent uses the kids as a weapon against the other, threatening to take them away whenever their demands aren't met. Canada's CETA, meanwhile, is like a married couple approaching someone else to have a threesome at a swinger's party, which sounds a lot more fun and exciting, I'm sure you'll agree. My second retort to the above argument is simple: why even take the risk? If we stay in the EU, our trade with them will continue to be prosperous and full of great sex while the kids are asleep (okay, I've taken the analogy too far now). If we leave, however, there's a chance any trade agreement could fail catastrophically and leave our economy in a shitstorm. In fact, I would argue the likes of Germany, France and other leading EU nations would not simply let us pick and choose what rules and trade agreements we adhere to, so the likelihood of us being absolutely fine, trade-wise, after leaving the EU seems overly optimistic. Plus negotiating a CETA of any kind could take years and have a completely uncertain outcome. Again, why take the risk? An additional point: arguments no. 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, and 12 above are examples of really great laws and regulations the EU has introduced. If you say you want to leave the EU so we have autonomy over our own laws, you know that you're effectively handing control of our country over to David 'HideTheSausageLiterally' Cameron, don't you? In terms of making laws that benefit all of us, I trust the EU way more than that guy.

The immigration argument tends to centre around the whole 'visa-free work and travel' thing, and is generally espoused by people terrified of dem immigantz stealin are jobz. Alternatively it's espoused by people afraid of terrorists being able to come here more easily, but for that I'd refer you to point no. 9 above; we're safer from terrorism in the EU because we can share intelligence and resources with other countries more easily. But back to the 'stealing our jobs' fear; while it's true that technically speaking there could be an influx of foreigners coming to claim your particular job at any moment, just remember, we've been part of the EU for 43 years now and it hasn't happened yet, despite what the mainstream media may tell you (and you DEFINITELY shouldn't trust those guys; more on that later). Seriously, do you know ANYONE, personally, that has had their job stolen by a foreigner? Be honest now. I'd be willing to wager that you don't, and I'll explain why that is too: the immigrants that are coming here are not stealing YOUR jobs, specifically. They're either starting their own businesses (in which case they're actually creating jobs), or they're skilled labourers taking jobs there just aren't enough trained British people to take (such as doctors or surgeons), or they're unskilled labourers taking the jobs that you don't want (like toilet cleaning or washing dishes). Incidentally, about a year ago I taught English to some Eastern European immigrants who worked in a salad-packing factory in Lichfield. One Latvian girl was actually a teacher back home, but she was making more money as a salad-packer here than she was as a teacher in Latvia(!)- the point being that unskilled immigrant workers are generally happy to work shitty menial jobs that no British person wants, and your cushy 9-to-5 office job is not under threat. Not even a little bit- so don't worry your xenophobic little head about it. Oh, and one last thing on this subject, to paraphrase Louis CK: maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're shit at your job.

If you've made it thus far through this absolute essay of a post, congratulations! You're nearly at the end! But before I go, I just want to hit you with one final thought. Over 80% of UK newspapers are owned by five right-wing media billionaires (aka five massive cuntstacks): Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail), Rupert Murdoch (Sun/Times), Richard Desmond (Express), and the Barclay Brothers (Telegraph). Murdoch is an Australian living in New York and Rothermere lives in France, while the Barclay Brothers live in the tax havens of Monaco and Guernsey. All of them use tax haven entities to avoid UK taxes. And guess who wants to stop billionaires using tax havens to avoid paying their taxes? That's right, the EU. So of COURSE the British newspapers are trying to persuade you to leave the EU; it benefits their owners personally. The moral of the story is, don't gather your views from newspapers. Do some research like I have with this post, you lazy twonknoggin.

In conclusion: we're in a really great position right now. We're part of the EU with all the benefits that entails, but without being tied to their notoriously unstable currency. Leaving the EU would not only be hypocritical since we spent so much time telling Scotland they shouldn't leave the UK this time last year with all that lovely 'better together' rhetoric, it might also be downright stupid and harmful to our economy.

tl;dr version: Vote to stay in the EU, you filthy animals. Because reasons. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.

EDIT: thank you to everybody who made me internet famous for the day. You're all sweethearts. If you'd like to read more of my filth-ridden political thoughts, please tune in to my new blog.

[Six30]

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[Six30]

So we would have no unleaded petrol if we had never been in the eu, our beaches would be filthy cause we just wouldn't bother to keep em clean , and if we leave the eu we would be even more at risk from terrorism cause if Brussels knew a nasty bomber was on his way over they wouldn't tell us... Really !! Fook off .

[Joeman]

Things I don't want to happen if we leave:

Have to get a new driving licence (non-eu)

Have to get new passport (non-eu)

Have to get new numberplates (non-eu)

Have to pay VAT and import duty on stuff I buy from Europe.