Advanced training

[raesewell]

I never said throw your comfort zone out of the window, just extend it occasionally, it keeps you sharp.

[SometimesSansEngine]

And my point still stands, as demonstrated by the stories people tell of brown trouser moments.

But this is circular now and about semantics & how what you think is a clear statement can be misconstrued and misunderstood by others, so I'll leave it there.

[raesewell]

Thank goodness for that

[Richard1985]

Reading through this thread I have to agree with Sans that I will say a lot of pre test training is to get you past the tests only. And there is a lot of post test training out there to cover all types of rider needs and wants like the path I’m currently working on to be a blood biker here in Pembrokeshire which is the enhanced rider scheme, biker down, first bike on scene and finally a full iams course to improve and extend my biker health and safety knowledge.

[SometimesSansEngine]

So I never updated this.

In May 2019 I have my pre-test assessment by a National Observer in our group. That went well. I got assigned my assessor and we arranged to meet up at Riders of Bristol.

I'd been told that the moment the assessor sees you you're on test. I originally planned to try and get to the car park before him but no, he was keener than me. As I pulled in I had a gut feeling that chap waiting there was for me. So I pulled in making full observations, did some nice slow riding around the car park, chose my parking spot, pulled up, tried to select neutral.... into second.... popped it down.... back up.... second. back down.... Rolled the bike forward and back a touch.... up with the gentlest of gentlest touches... second. Darn it. I can feel the eyes burning on me... Forget it. I'm going to stop the bike in gear and remember to select neutral when we get going. I always start the engine with the clutch pulled in anyway. Maybe he didn't see it.

"I presume you're here for your IAM test, and it's nice to see your Kawasaki has that charming can't find neutral when you need to feature" he says

Needless to say my assessor was lovely from start to finish. He was very clear that he was strict on speed limits at all times, but that I was currently a pass and it was just up to me to keep that opinion. He explained the route and even said there was one point he knew a speed limit sign was heavily obscured and I was unlikely to see it. He'd reported it to the council several times and if I went past it and he thought I hadn't seen it he'd give a speed up signal, but not to worry as it wouldn't count against me.

So off we went, great conditions to start with and a mix of town, residential, rural and dual carriageway, then on one of the planned turn offs the road was closed. I eased to a stop and looked in my mirrors to see the plan - wave on so just carried on.

Then the weather changed and in came the rain. In my head I knew I was going to have to admit the truth to him - every bike assessment I'd ever successfully done, from my CBT to mod 1 to mod 2 and now this had involved rain....

We pulled back in and sought shelter in the dealership from the rain. Very quickly he told me that he was pleased to say I'd met the standard, then gave me some feedback. He said that he was impressed that I'd only been riding for 14 months, although he was very clear that he would have assessed me just the same if my riding experience was 14 years. He picked at one time I took a left position on a right hand bend in flowing traffic and said there was no need. There was no benefit and if I had an idiot behind me they might consider squeezing an overtake 'just because'. And finally he said I'd missed two left hand signals to exit a roundabout. I was really sure I had done them all BUT took this as feedback that maybe I wasn't doing them soon enough and they ended up being easy for him to miss (or really did miss them). Even if I felt I'd done them, clearly he didn't see them. And if he didn't see them then the random Rossi wannabe following me one day may not and thinks they can accelerate up my nearside to take the exit that I also want to. So I'll try and have a think about my timing of those.

Finally he commented on my smoothness and use of gears - he mentioned that he'd seen me working the gearbox as I had to do on a 650cc, and that many people who present for their assessment are on bigger machines and barely have to move around the gearbox.

At this point I admitted about the rain...

When my test report came through I was a whisker off a first. Just a satisfactory on the signals. But I was very happy with that.

My final thoughts on IAM:

- it's very worthwhile doing. You are likely to learn stuff

- but I will always take all opinion and suggestions with a healthy pinch of salt - I think to 'swallow the manual' is not to be advanced, and most national observers I've chatted to have the same opinion

- 'it depends' really is the best answer most of the time

- I find the lack of radio use archaic. I believe most people would improve faster with more immediate feedback. I do understand the idea of having to use observations to pick up where to go, but I still think feedback would be more invaluable closer to the moment

- I still haven't been out on any more group rides. They're just not my thing

[TimR]

So I never updated this.

In May 2019 I have my pre-test assessment by a National Observer in our group. That went well. I got assigned my assessor and we arranged to meet up at Riders of Bristol.

I'd been told that the moment the assessor sees you you're on test. I originally planned to try and get to the car park before him but no, he was keener than me. As I pulled in I had a gut feeling that chap waiting there was for me. So I pulled in making full observations, did some nice slow riding around the car park, chose my parking spot, pulled up, tried to select neutral.... into second.... popped it down.... back up.... second. back down.... Rolled the bike forward and back a touch.... up with the gentlest of gentlest touches... second. Darn it. I can feel the eyes burning on me... Forget it. I'm going to stop the bike in gear and remember to select neutral when we get going. I always start the engine with the clutch pulled in anyway. Maybe he didn't see it.

"I presume you're here for your IAM test, and it's nice to see your Kawasaki has that charming can't find neutral when you need to feature" he says

Needless to say my assessor was lovely from start to finish. He was very clear that he was strict on speed limits at all times, but that I was currently a pass and it was just up to me to keep that opinion. He explained the route and even said there was one point he knew a speed limit sign was heavily obscured and I was unlikely to see it. He'd reported it to the council several times and if I went past it and he thought I hadn't seen it he'd give a speed up signal, but not to worry as it wouldn't count against me.

So off we went, great conditions to start with and a mix of town, residential, rural and dual carriageway, then on one of the planned turn offs the road was closed. I eased to a stop and looked in my mirrors to see the plan - wave on so just carried on.

Then the weather changed and in came the rain. In my head I knew I was going to have to admit the truth to him - every bike assessment I'd ever successfully done, from my CBT to mod 1 to mod 2 and now this had involved rain....

We pulled back in and sought shelter in the dealership from the rain. Very quickly he told me that he was pleased to say I'd met the standard, then gave me some feedback. He said that he was impressed that I'd only been riding for 14 months, although he was very clear that he would have assessed me just the same if my riding experience was 14 years. He picked at one time I took a left position on a right hand bend in flowing traffic and said there was no need. There was no benefit and if I had an idiot behind me they might consider squeezing an overtake 'just because'. And finally he said I'd missed two left hand signals to exit a roundabout. I was really sure I had done them all BUT took this as feedback that maybe I wasn't doing them soon enough and they ended up being easy for him to miss (or really did miss them). Even if I felt I'd done them, clearly he didn't see them. And if he didn't see them then the random Rossi wannabe following me one day may not and thinks they can accelerate up my nearside to take the exit that I also want to. So I'll try and have a think about my timing of those.

Finally he commented on my smoothness and use of gears - he mentioned that he'd seen me working the gearbox as I had to do on a 650cc, and that many people who present for their assessment are on bigger machines and barely have to move around the gearbox.

At this point I admitted about the rain...

When my test report came through I was a whisker off a first. Just a satisfactory on the signals. But I was very happy with that.

My final thoughts on IAM:

- it's very worthwhile doing. You are likely to learn stuff

- but I will always take all opinion and suggestions with a healthy pinch of salt - I think to 'swallow the manual' is not to be advanced, and most national observers I've chatted to have the same opinion

- 'it depends' really is the best answer most of the time

- I find the lack of radio use archaic. I believe most people would improve faster with more immediate feedback. I do understand the idea of having to use observations to pick up where to go, but I still think feedback would be more invaluable closer to the moment

- I still haven't been out on any more group rides. They're just not my thing

 

Was your Examiner Rob Downing ? And i think i know which speed sign not that far from Gordano services

[SometimesSansEngine]

No, Tony Oliver. Speed sign was just outside Bishop Sutton.

[raesewell]

Did you feel that you gained from the experience?

[SometimesSansEngine]

Yes, in terms of hazard awareness I think that was fine from the start, but in terms of planning overtakes etc that came on leaps and bounds. I remember early on saying to my observer in one debrief that I think I was still assessing overtakes like a car driver, in terms of where you can overtake and the acceleration available to you. Later that night I got an email from him saying he'd been reflecting on that himself as after my comment he'd realised that when you're dealing with someone who has had a licence for just a couple of months you may need a different teaching approach to help people with this aspect.

I'm still less likely to overtake than others, but that's based on my personal assessment of situations. I observe other people's overtakes and don't always agree with their assessment. Their bike, their licence, their life. It's all opinion

Finally even though I notionally understood certain concepts about positioning and using the width of the road, I think it's useful to have someone else observing what you're doing from a distance to help provide further feedback. Polish for want of a better word.

[raesewell]

It's good you got something from it. As I've said in other threads, advanced training won't make you worse.

[James in Brum]

If I still have a license next year I plan to do something, IAM or ROSPA.

[Tiggie]

You'll need to do your NSAC before any of those

[James in Brum]

I get that certificate soon

[raesewell]

You'll need to do your NSAC before any of those

 

I've done three of those.

[bonio]

- I still haven't been out on any more group rides. They're just not my thing

 

They're not mine either. But I did my first one with the suffolk rospa group last week. And I really enjoyed it.

Cos of the virus we were limited to 6 bikes and then we split into two groups of three so there was none of this stopping and waiting for people which you get in some group rides. We did a whole load of roads which I didn't know, kept up a nice brisk pace and ended up at a chippy.

Pretty much a perfect evening.

[Bungleaio]

- I still haven't been out on any more group rides. They're just not my thing

 

They're not mine either. But I did my first one with the suffolk rospa group last week. And I really enjoyed it.

Cos of the virus we were limited to 6 bikes and then we split into two groups of three so there was none of this stopping and waiting for people which you get in some group rides. We did a whole load of roads which I didn't know, kept up a nice brisk pace and ended up at a chippy.

Pretty much a perfect evening.

 

Sounds a bit like something we did but there was no chips.

[bonio]

[mention]Bungleaio[/mention] another reason to move to suffolk

[Pbassred]

- I find the lack of radio use archaic. I believe most people would improve faster with more immediate feedback.

I agree with this. I just had my 2nd ride. We go out, stop, do feed back and then come back. it could be more constant. On the VFR the rearward viability requires more effort. I have to spend 40% of my attention searching for the observer to see what his signals are! A simple; "turn left here" would fix that.

[bonio]

- I find the lack of radio use archaic. I believe most people would improve faster with more immediate feedback.

I agree with this. I just had my 2nd ride. We go out, stop, do feed back and then come back. it could be more constant. On the VFR the rearward viability requires more effort. I have to spend 40% of my attention searching for the observer to see what his signals are! A simple; "turn left here" would fix that.

I agree with the immediate feedback thing. My instructor for my DVLA test would use the radio to say things like, "see that person at the crossing - that means the lights could turn red any moment", "look over the hedge to the right and you will see there's a tractor coming in the opposite direction". This was really helpful in pointing out what was meant by "observation".

But as for looking in the mirrors for signals - the counter argument would be that a glance in your mirrors is usually worthwhile when approaching any junction, so you know what's behind you in case you needed to brake, and it shouldn't take up too much of your attention to do this. I find that whenever I come to do my retest, I realise I've been neglecting my mirrors, and a couple of observed rides is enough to help me find them again.

[raesewell]

They don't use comms for a reason, it's to keep you aware of your surroundings and make sure you are paying attention.

[SometimesSansEngine]

Well that's not entirely accurate.

IAM groups can use radio if the observer is trained to do so.

So what you mean is some choose not to use comms for that reason.

Others make claims about insurance (that they become an instructor etc) but IAM have clarified that should not be the case either.

If observers are really worried that you won't make enough rearward observations then just don't announce turns over the radio. Simple.

[raesewell]

Yes that's what I should have said

[TimR]

- I find the lack of radio use archaic. I believe most people would improve faster with more immediate feedback.

I agree with this. I just had my 2nd ride. We go out, stop, do feed back and then come back. it could be more constant. On the VFR the rearward viability requires more effort. I have to spend 40% of my attention searching for the observer to see what his signals are! A simple; "turn left here" would fix that.

I agree with the immediate feedback thing. My instructor for my DVLA test would use the radio to say things like, "see that person at the crossing - that means the lights could turn red any moment", "look over the hedge to the right and you will see there's a tractor coming in the opposite direction". This was really helpful in pointing out what was meant by "observation".

But as for looking in the mirrors for signals - the counter argument would be that a glance in your mirrors is usually worthwhile when approaching any junction, so you know what's behind you in case you needed to brake, and it shouldn't take up too much of your attention to do this. I find that whenever I come to do my retest, I realise I've been neglecting my mirrors, and a couple of observed rides is enough to help me find them again.

 

This is where it has to be careful.

They are observers they are not trainers/instructors and are not insured to teach /train

So if they gave you 'instructions' via Comms and an incident occured by you following their instruction then brown smelly stuff hits rotating air distribution unit .

During debriefs / mid ride chats it should be points for you to consider not that you should do this or that .

By an observer signalling it is a suggestion or at most a request both of which it is your choice to follow and even through comms it should be voiced in the similar vein .

The essence of Advanced Riding is that you teach yourself not to be taught .

[SometimesSansEngine]

It's not an issue with the IAM group insurance - if an observer is level 3 radio qualified then they are OK to follow an associate and provide guidance whilst on the move.

Level 1 is directions over radio only, level 2 is qualified to go ahead of the associate and explain what they are doing and why.

Simply put stick to what you're been assessed to be capable of and you'll be fine.

[Six30]

sounds like they are teaching you stuff that is just common sense .