Cold oil change

[Simon Davey]

Any harm in a cold oil change? 

I appreciate a warmed up engine will have oil that will flow from the engine more easily etc. 

 

I can't really do my oil and filter until late, which means I can't warm up the engine. 

I'm assuming I just need to wait a tad longer for the oil to drain? 

TIA 

[curlylegend]

I've always drained oil when it's warm, if not hot.  Interesting to see what other people say ?

[RideWithStyles]

Save it for another day/weekend when you can?

if its warranty sensitive go up to a thousand miles is ok (unless its first change then its a few hundred miles).

No real harm though just slower, less oil and the heavier particles to probably come out (some more old oil will be still in) and more effort with the plug/filter.

the bike doesnt need to be hot hot or fan kicks in temp, just a hand touch warm on the sump or lower cases is more than enough. 

but then you really need to start the bike up to flow the oil around and check the level after filling up anyway. 

also theoretically the torque settings (if you decide to use them?) might differ but thats getting picky.

[Tinkicker]

No harm whatsoever.  Takes a tad longer and may leave a miniscule amount more of old oil in than hot, but otherwise no difference at all.

Edited May 29, 2024 by Tinkicker

[Simon Davey]

5 minutes ago, Tinkicker said:

No harm whatsoever.  Takes a tad longer and may leave a miniscule amount more of old oil in than hot, but otherwise no difference at all.

 

Thanks, I knew I'd get your opinion on oil in one way or another

[Tinkicker]

Git.

[Simon Davey]

8 hours ago, RideWithStyles said:

Save it for another day/weekend when you can?

if its warranty sensitive go up to a thousand miles is ok (unless its first change then its a few hundred miles).

No real harm though just slower, less oil and the heavier particles to probably come out (some more old oil will be still in) and more effort with the plug/filter.

the bike doesnt need to be hot hot or fan kicks in temp, just a hand touch warm on the sump or lower cases is more than enough. 

but then you really need to start the bike up to flow the oil around and check the level after filling up anyway. 

also theoretically the torque settings (if you decide to use them?) might differ but thats getting picky.

 

Thanks, definitely no warranty to consider. 

I'll have to warm it up during the day to check for leaks, and maybe nip up the filter or sump bolt. 

But the work, albeit short, will need to be done in the evening. 

Edited May 30, 2024 by Simon Davey

[Gerontious]

you should never rely on the "book" torque when refitting a sump drain plug.

 

"Book" torque values rely on the fixings being clean and DRY. and this is impossible to achieve with a sump drain plug. tightening to the "book" torque is a sure fire way to crack the sump - sooner or later.

 

the recommended torque for the drain plug on my bike is 32nm. the basic rule of thumb is to reduce that by 1/3rd - so around 20nm. I dont have a torque wrench that goes so low so I tighten it until it 'grips' and then an extra 1/4 turn.

 

I always change my oil overnight. so it doesn't really matter if the engine was warm at the start or cold. though when I say cold I don't mean winter temperatures.

 

I put the bowl underneath let the oil out and then leave it until the next morning - by which time it will have long stopped even dripping.

 

Anything to do with engine oil is always controversial. (this mystifies me) I guess its mostly because people tend to overthink it and it never ceases to amaze me how many people think they know better than the people who designed, built and tested our bikes. You only have to look at any Africa Twin group to see that. especially when it comes to what Honda has to say about filter changes.  uproar!! end of the world as we know it!! Because Honda says to replace the Filter every second oil change. But what do they know?

[Simon Davey]

Book torque is 15, which seems reasonable, but, I tighten a lot of nuts and bolts, I trust my "feel". 

 

It's so black that it looks like the little window has been painted. 

So warm or cold, it'll be changed tonight. 

Edited May 30, 2024 by Simon Davey

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

Last week I did both bikes. I warmed the Bobber up as usual, then drained the oil.

 

But in doing both at the same time I forgot I hadn't warmed the CBF up before removing the drain plug. 

 

It made no difference whatsoever in terms of getting the oil out. Modern oil is so thin when cold there isn't much in it.

 

Personally I still prefer to drain warm oil but doing it cold won't make much difference these days. 

 

 

[husoi]

I always do it cold.

Take the plug out and let it drain overnight.

Because I always change the oil filter at same time, once most of the oil is out I remove the filter.

Next morning is just put new filter on the plug back and new oil.

[Hairsy]

I’d always try for warm oil - partly for the flow of the oil but also because you want any particles inside the engine to be suspended in the oil when it comes out rather than ‘in a place of rest’ in some crevice in the engine.

 

However, to add context, if you’re carrying out regular oil changes with good quality oil and a filter change then you’re probably fairly low on the list of risky owners.

 

Aim to do it warm but don’t lose sleep over it.

[Simon Davey]

Many thanks good people. 

[fullscreenaging]

Don’t forget to use a new sump plug washer. 
 

[Simon Davey]

1 hour ago, fullscreenaging said:

Don’t forget to use a new sump plug washer. 
 

 

Cheers, yes, I bought a new magnetic plug too.

 

[Stu]

I don't get all this warming the bike up or leaving it overnight malarkey 

 

You probably get more out draining it cold as the chances are its been left overnight and all the oil will be at the bottom! warming it up is just circulating the oil  

 

Leaving it to drain overnight will just gain you about 5ml of oil which when you are putting 4-5 litres of new stuff in its not going to make a blind bit of difference 

 

As for filter changes I do mine every oil change regardless! they are cheap enough but I wouldn't degrade people for doing them as the book states as that's what they are designed to do and are more than up to the job 

 

Life is too short just drop the oil fill it up and ride! 

 

And as @Gerontious said forget torque settings nip it up whip it clean warm it up leave it overnight and check for leaks. Providing you have changed the washer and not crossed the threads it won't leak. I have cracked a sump once by following the torque settings! never again! 

[skyrider]

13 hours ago, Simon Davey said:

Book torque is 15, which seems reasonable, but, I tighten a lot of nuts and bolts, I trust my "feel". 

 

It's so black that it looks like the little window has been painted. 

So warm or cold, it'll be changed tonight. 

i always tighten my sump bolt finger tight and then nip it up with a spanner, not too tight

Edited May 30, 2024 by skyrider

[Tinkicker]

10 hours ago, Stu said:

I don't get all this warming the bike up or leaving it overnight malarkey 

 

You probably get more out draining it cold as the chances are its been left overnight and all the oil will be at the bottom! warming it up is just circulating the oil  

 

Leaving it to drain overnight will just gain you about 5ml of oil which when you are putting 4-5 litres of new stuff in its not going to make a blind bit of difference 

 

As for filter changes I do mine every oil change regardless! they are cheap enough but I wouldn't degrade people for doing them as the book states as that's what they are designed to do and are more than up to the job 

 

Life is too short just drop the oil fill it up and ride! 

 

And as @Gerontious said forget torque settings nip it up whip it clean warm it up leave it overnight and check for leaks. Providing you have changed the washer and not crossed the threads it won't leak. I have cracked a sump once by following the torque settings! never again! 

 

 

Change the washer! In 40 years of pissing around with changing the oil on everything from mopeds to 200 tonne dump trucks, this includes my own vehices, I have not changed a good condition sump plug washer once.  How many leaks have I experienced from reusing a visually undamaged washer?  Zero.  

Another £2.59 goes into the dealers pocket for replacing a perfectly servceable sump washer.

 

When you are dealing with 27,000 commercial vehicles nationwide, with an average of 3 oil changes a year, do the math*..  If its not leaking after an hour of tightening it and warming the motor, it is not going to leak. Changing sump washers every oil change is not a thing on large fleets.  It is done "on condition".

 

There is a lot of dodgy info out there, mostly put out to part the customer with his hard earned cash or as a tick box measure.

If a crush washer has not been tightened enough to severely deform it, it can be reused with care on LOW pressure applications like sump plugs and checked for leaks afterwards. Dowty washers can be felt for correct protrusion and hardness of the insert.

Some washers are shaped to deform and lose their new appearance on tightening due to "sealing ridges" that have been stamped in getting flattened out. Consider changing one of this style to a different style that can be reused at the next oil change if possible.  

 

As an aside a valuable lesson while we are talking drain plugs.  A plug should only ever have two positions.  In and correctly tightened, or completely removed.  It should never be put back loosely " for now".

 

Plugs using O rings.  Provided that the O ring has not taken on a conical shape and is still flexible, it can be reused provided when screwing the plug in finger tight, the plug stops and requires a spanner at least one full turn before being fully home and tightened.

 

* 27000 x 3 x £2.   £162,000 annually is a lot of money for sump plug washers!  You can see why manufacturers " recommend" changing them at every oil change!

 

Edited May 31, 2024 by Tinkicker

[Stu]

7 hours ago, Tinkicker said:

 

 

Change the washer! In 40 years of pissing around with changing the oil on everything from mopeds to 200 tonne dump trucks, this includes my own vehices, I have not changed a good condition sump plug washer once.  How many leaks have I experienced from reusing a visually undamaged washer?  Zero.  

Another £2.59 goes into the dealers pocket for replacing a perfectly servceable sump washer.

 

When you are dealing with 27,000 commercial vehicles nationwide, with an average of 3 oil changes a year, do the math*..  If its not leaking after an hour of tightening it and warming the motor, it is not going to leak. Changing sump washers every oil change is not a thing on large fleets.  It is done "on condition".

 

There is a lot of dodgy info out there, mostly put out to part the customer with his hard earned cash or as a tick box measure.

If a crush washer has not been tightened enough to severely deform it, it can be reused with care on LOW pressure applications like sump plugs and checked for leaks afterwards. Dowty washers can be felt for correct protrusion and hardness of the insert.

Some washers are shaped to deform and lose their new appearance on tightening due to "sealing ridges" that have been stamped in getting flattened out. Consider changing one of this style to a different style that can be reused at the next oil change if possible.  

 

As an aside a valuable lesson while we are talking drain plugs.  A plug should only ever have two positions.  In and correctly tightened, or completely removed.  It should never be put back loosely " for now".

 

Plugs using O rings.  Provided that the O ring has not taken on a conical shape and is still flexible, it can be reused provided when screwing the plug in finger tight, the plug stops and requires a spanner at least one full turn before being fully home and tightened.

 

* 27000 x 3 x £2.   £162,000 annually is a lot of money for sump plug washers!  You can see why manufacturers " recommend" changing them at every oil change!

 

 

But we aren't doing 27000 oil changes we are doing it once a year and sump washers are cheaper elsewhere! 

 

I have hundreds of them at the minute and change them if required 

 

I can't actually remember the last time I changed a sump washer but I know what I'm looking for as do you! Not everyone does so for the sake of a few pennies I advised to change it. 

 

 

[Tinkicker]

35 minutes ago, Stu said:

 

But we aren't doing 27000 oil changes we are doing it once a year and sump washers are cheaper elsewhere! 

 

I have hundreds of them at the minute and change them if required 

 

I can't actually remember the last time I changed a sump washer but I know what I'm looking for as do you! Not everyone does so for the sake of a few pennies I advised to change it. 

 

 

 

Not having a pop at you Stu. I only quoted you because you brought it up and I could jump in with some relevant comments.

 

 

My intention was to point out the vested interests of the manufacturers in recommending replacing them every time and everyone else, from third party service manual authors to motoring journalists slavishly following the party line, leading to people spending cash they do not need to.

 

Sure, it is best practice to replace them every time.  No argument there.  On the other hand, a waste of ever dwindling planetary resources and cash.  At the end of the day it is a plug, a mating surface and a gasket.  The cost benefit analysis is not complex.

 

Fit plug and tighten.  Does it leak?  

No.  Great, a couple of quid saved ( dealer price).  The vast majority of cases.

 

Yes it has a slow drip.  Spend a couple of quid on a new washer, remove plug, put finger over hole to keep oil in, put new washer on plug and screw it back in. Cost over price of new washer, a few pence worth of lost oil.  A very rare case.  I cannot recall it ever happening.

 

In my case this is a good thing.  Holding back 40 gallons of engine oil with the palm of the hand leads to very soggy overall sleeves.

 

One drain plug washer I would always replace every time is one on a Skydrol oil tank.  That stuff is proper nasty.

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2024 by Tinkicker

[Stu]

17 minutes ago, Tinkicker said:

Not having a pop at you Stu. I only quoted you because you brought it up and I could jump in with some relevant comments.

 

I know you wasn't and I get where you are coming from 

 

I have re used seals and gaskets loads of times but for those in doubt then just change it not using the dealers parts

 

As you say at worse it's going to be a very small drip which most of the time could even wait till the next service! 

 

If its worse than this there's usually a bigger problem 

[Simon Davey]

As it happens, I've never replaced a washer that didn't need replacing. 

 

On this occasion though, the sump plug was so tight that when I finally got it off, it either didn't have a washer, or it's pressed so hard  under the bolt flange that I can't remove it. 

 

I had already bought a new plug and washer

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

I'm a skinflint. When I change the oil in the Bobber I fit a new washer as I have a big bag of them. But I hate throwing a perfectly usable washer away so it goes on the CBF.

 

Never had one leak. 

 

Nor do I torque the plug up anywhere near the numbers in the book. 

[RideWithStyles]

depends on the washer, sump, condition and who did it last time so most of the time i just change it every time as i have little time nor agro to do the job twice just because of the washer want to be defiant the first time round.

being pedantic: more metal gets wasted/lost/binnned from brake dust,screws,parts,bolts and bobs off vehicles/loads every year than a washer unless of course your in the very specific position like Tinker says, though i think they should all be reused/recycled when ever possible regardless.

the triumph i had before the oil filter and the sump plug mounted (i think was pointing down?) on the cast sump pointing to the floor shrouded for protection thought they might as well as just used the OF as a one item did both of drain/seal and filter. 

if more vehicles went down the sealed sump route (bmw/mini for example) where oil is sucked out, no wasted metal and less leaks to worry about plus longer service intervals through better oils benefits for everyone apart from the dealership (capped to yearly to keep them interested) and the odd 3rd party chinese supply, as usual the bike world is way behind and very slow even with the great resources of big multiple vehicles sectors at their disposal, bmw, suzuki, arguably kawasaki etc.

[Simon Davey]

Well, all is good, although I realised afterwards that I should have removed 2 drain plugs

No torque wrench used, just "pretty tight". 

Ran it until the temp gauge lifted, left it for a couple of days, and no leaks. 

Going out for a couple of hours ride tonight.