Arming all Police?

[TC1474]

Thankfully gun crime like mass shootings are rare, why equip police for something that very rarely happens?

Arsen attacks are more frequent, maybe make all cops carry fire extinguishers! Lol

 

You are right on that score excpet for the fire extinguishers

I was at Hungerford in 1987, it was a buddy of mine (Roger Brereton and a traffic cop) that was killed by Ryan with his AK47 along with many others. The only time in my 25 years of service when I actually felt sickened by what I saw.

A year later, 26 were burnt to death on the M4 We got there first, got the fire extinguishers out (which all our patrol cars and bikes carried) and the dribble of foam they produced was about as pathetic as you could get.

We have had mass shootings (Dunblane was another) but thankfully they are few and far between, mainly because we have some of the strictest gun laws in the world, which I apreciate does not prevent all gun crime, because if someone really wants a gun they will find ways to obtain one, but compared to 87 when it was far easier back then to obtain a section 1 firearms licence, things today are far better.

We cannot become complacement, but in my opinion arming the Police routinely will not change the situation, because a command decision still has to be made to fire, which means a committee wil have to be set up, minutes made, discusions held and then someone having the bottle to give the order

Back in 87 when Ryan holed himself up in the school, the then Chief Constable Colin Smith arrived and gave the order that if the armed response team fired their weapon, then make sure that they shot to injure.

The head of the Support Group and was responsible for the ARG, was walking behind and countermanded that order and said "Shoot to injurel? B@llocks to that, If he show his face, kill the b@stard".

Fortunately Ryan did us all a favour and topped himself.

But the point I was also going to make was that the Press nearly got shot because they were creeping around the perimeter of the school before it was known where Ryan was, despite the fact that they were told to stay put in certain locations and not to go wandering off. Everyone was nervous, and a couple of journalists and photographers thought they knew better

Had they been shot, it would have been the poor coppers having to answer the difficult questions as well as live with it on their concience even though it might not have been deemed the fault of the Police.

So even with well trained firearms users there is a potential for problems.

[Six30]

Would you really need a command decision to shoot a fella running round with a machine gun shooting people .. Shoot to kill... in terrorists situations like Paris

[TC1474]

Would you really need a command decision to shoot a fella running round with a machine gun shooting people .. Shoot to kill... in terrorists situations like Paris

 

I was being rhetorical

In this country everything is decided by committee, thats why nothing ever gets done or agreed

But in all seriousness, yes a command decision has to be given or exact instructions issued.

It is no different to pursuits. Traffic cars are the only ones these days to be involved (because of our training) but the control room inspector has to authorise the applying of TPAC, stingers or anything else, and usually he/she wll get authorisation from a higher rank.

It is caled passing the buck

[Six30]

Would you really need a command decision to shoot a fella running round with a machine gun shooting people .. Shoot to kill... in terrorists situations like Paris

 

I was being rhetorical

In this country everything is decided by committee, thats why nothing ever gets done or agreed

But in all seriousness, yes a command decision has to be given or exact instructions issued.

It is no different to pursuits. Traffic cars are the only ones these days to be involved (because of our training) but the control room inspector has to authorise the applying of TPAC, stingers or anything else, and usually he/she wll get authorisation from a higher rank.

It is caled passing the buck

 

I should be in charge of the police

[Hoggs]

I should be in charge of the police

 

Would you fine Fozzie for giving one of your coppers some lip?

[cockercas]

If were talking about the same police that tasered a blind man then no.

[Fozzie]

I should be in charge of the police

 

Would you fine Fozzie for giving one of your coppers some lip?

 

I'm more worried about being shot now

[Six30]

I should be in charge of the police

 

Would you fine Fozzie for giving one of your coppers some lip?

 

Course not , though I would expect some sort of bribe .

[Six30]

If were talking about the same police that tasered a blind man then no.

 

Bet he didn't see that coming.......... I'll get me coat

[MrBrightside]

Would you really need a command decision to shoot a fella running round with a machine gun shooting people .. Shoot to kill... in terrorists situations like Paris

 

I was being rhetorical

In this country everything is decided by committee, thats why nothing ever gets done or agreed

But in all seriousness, yes a command decision has to be given or exact instructions issued.

It is no different to pursuits. Traffic cars are the only ones these days to be involved (because of our training) but the control room inspector has to authorise the applying of TPAC, stingers or anything else, and usually he/she wll get authorisation from a higher rank.

It is caled passing the buck

 

This must be a counties thing? I can pursue as a class 1, I'm not traffic...

for a spontaneous situation, an officer would not require authority to draw his sidearm and pull the trigger. He would justify his actions, rightly or wrongly, and the result of the force used would be scrutinised for years to come by IPCC and proffesional standards.

pre planned armed incidents are very different.

Did anyone see that documentary on the Met a few months back? There are committees just to make basic decisions and that is truly tragic. A waste of resources by people who are so far out of touch they don't even understand grass roots policing.

[MrBrightside]

but very well armed London gangs etc.

 

Yeah Wood Green and Tottenham Hale have quite bad reputations and I can think of a few incidents in the last four years but I think the majority were stabbings rather than shootings (which isn't really better but I'm not sure the gun gang problem is quite as bad as some fear mongering media will have you believe

 

Yes the majority are stabbings for sure, however gun enabled crime is also on the up. The gangs problem in London is out of control. I've worked in East London for over 10 years now and it's shocking how it's evolved.

ARV crews get lots of overtime lol

[TC1474]

This must be a counties thing? I can pursue as a class 1, I'm not traffic...

for a spontaneous situation, an officer would not require authority to draw his sidearm and pull the trigger. He would justify his actions, rightly or wrongly, and the result of the force used would be scrutinised for years to come by IPCC and proffesional standards.

pre planned armed incidents are very different.

Did anyone see that documentary on the Met a few months back? There are committees just to make basic decisions and that is truly tragic. A waste of resources by people who are so far out of touch they don't even understand grass roots policing.

 

In the Met you have area cars and immediate response vehicles and policy is probably different in the Met, but certainly in my old force only class 1 and appropriatly trained crews are allowed to pursue, which means roads Policing (Traffic in my day) because there is no such thing as an area car or immediate response vehicle other than traffic.

Panda cars are allowed to "Follow" until such time as they hand over to a trained crew.

But back to the point in hand, as I said I in respect of firearms use, I was being rhetorical. For sure if there is an immediate threat to life then there would be justification which he/she would have to "prove" "establish" call it what you will, and lets face it, in a spontaneous situation, I doubt that would be difficult to establish.

What I was trying to show (albeit badly) how like many things in this country, decisions are made by committee and there is little rom for discretion or judgement as there was in my day.

I apreciate you are still serving, albeit in the Met which operates differently to the County forces and you are more up to date on policy than I am.

I appreciate things have changed, which is why I am glad that I am retired and get my pension.

Edited December 2, 2015 by TC1474

[Hoggs]

There was a story a while back on London gangs and it was quite shocking how many there are.

Felt pretty lucky that it's not a noticeable issue where I am

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/t ... Z1oinQab_g

[Fozzie]

The real danger are the young ones apparently.

The old ones have a sense of code, whereas the young ones are looking to get themselves known and build a reputation as they see it as earning respect. This means the acts they commit are getting more extreme as they look to supersede their elders.

As a result gangs are sub-dividing into more violent gangs.

Guns won't solve that but a clockwork orange style mind adjustment wouldn't go amiss for some of them.

[cockercas]

And they forget to pick them up when they put them down.

[Throttled]

No to arming all, yes to arming more. Only the Met would stand a chance with a Paris type multiple locus attack. Police Scotland could not cope.

[Fozzie]

No to arming all, yes to arming more. Only the Met would stand a chance with a Paris type multiple locus attack. Police Scotland could not cope.

 

I don't think the terrorists could cope with the Scots when they're angry to be fair

[Hoggs]

I don't think the terrorists could cope with the Scots when they're angry to be fair

 

Nope!

Quote - When asked if he had a message for the bombers, John Smeaton, the baggage handler who helped thwart Saturday's 4x4 attack on Glasgow airport, said, "This is Glasgow. We'll just set aboot ye."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/j ... features11

[Six30]

It's their upbringing

[Mr Fro]

Whatever justification or authorisation is needed for the deployment of firearms, I bet there a mnemonic for it.

[Joe85]

As far as I'm aware, we've been bombing the shit out ISIS in Iraq and providing reconnaissance in Syria anyway, so they hate us enough as it is and you can bet your life they are planning attacks against the UK regardless of the outcome of the commons vote.

Luckily for us, automatic weapons aren't as readily available in the UK as they are on the continent and we've been happily giving the Security Services Carte Blanche on most of the freedoms we enjoy so we are much, much better placed to detect and shutdown any such attacks.

That said, they only have to get through once, like they already have, which will more then likely be with crude explosive devices against which there's not much your average Bobby with a pistol is going to be able to do anyway.

Just my opinion and not based on any fact or statistic.

[Six30]

We can bomb and shoot.... But it won't kill a warped ideology.

[Hoggs]

Other half asks what I'm replying to, say it's about if we should arm the police. He looks concerned as generally Internet discussion about things like this end in disaster. Reassure him that only topics on hi vis and cameras end in angry shouting.

And I agree with six30 we can't kill the ideology only fuel the hatred which will be used to recruit the next generation

[Zipster]

Take a look at police in Northern Ireland. All officers armed with pistols for their own protection both on and off duty yet there are fewer firearms incidents than in Yorkshire which is a similar size. Ultimately the public adapt to seeing armed officers and the gun is usually the last thing an officer reaches for in a confrontation but at least he or she knows it's there. There are armed response officers and specialist firearms officers just like other forces but all other officers also happen to routinely carry pistols.

[MrWhippy]

Not been around for a couple of days, I find this thread interesting.

I am against arming all police i dont think it would add any benefit, as has already been mentioned the majority if not all police in Europe are armed, I used to spend a lot of time in France and I can remember being shocked at first that every copper I saw was armed however you get used to it. not that I would want to over here.

I have a few points though, here in the UK we are not open boarders like the rest of Europe so although possible traveling into the UK is harder than across the rest of europe, and security forces at ports are armed should anything happen.

I notice someone said there was a survey done in the police force in the 80's and more recently and that the officers voted against it, good (this would actually make me feel better about them being armed) the main point around this though is I suspect the 80's survey was done becouse of the situation in Ireland.

I was living in the Manchester area when the bomb went of there, there was never a suggestion of arming police.

So the main question I have is, is this topic being raised now as we have a new generation coming through that dont remember the attacks and threat that we used to live under continuosly as a country, or is it that people see this threat as a more significant threat than the previous one?

and as for the point about you cant kill an ideology, you are dead right the only way to beat this is through education and communication the unfortunate thing is that to start winnning that battle it is long term and you need to get there very early or just after a major event in someones life to change deep rooted beliefs.

Sorry if that post is a bit wandering.