Slowlycatchymonkey Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 5 hours ago, James in Brum said: I wonder if there is a Venn diagram available, Do they do Venn diagrams in crayon? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James in Brum Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 Indeed but we can recognise it, look for it, think about how it is affecting our relationship With the evidence. In the Case of the Death Penalty it has been shown through evidence not work as a deterrent, the system leading to it cannot be set to preclude any wrong deaths. Logically people have to acknowledge that to be in about of the death penalty you have to accept the likelihood that some innocent person or persons will be killed also. If your emotional relationship with idea prevents you from accepting that you are not being logical. Similarly if some people are happy to accept that there would be some innocents killed and that is worth while collator damage then at least it is honest. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RantMachine Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 I've often felt that the issue is not the absence of a capital punishment, but rather a thousand and one other issues with every other aspect of the system that is already in place. Not enough rehabilitation, but also not firm enough punishment, and that's without even getting into idiotic sentencing practices and early releases. Although I do think we should introduce a system a bit like The Long Walk in Judge Dredd where after someone serves in parliament we force them to neck themselves as soon as they lose re-election. Don't think of it as capital punishment though; it's just the only safe way for a politician to retire. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkW Posted January 1, 2021 Author Share Posted January 1, 2021 2 hours ago, S-Westerly said: The trouble with logic is that it's not necessarily empirical. Sometimes what appears absolutely logical to one person is completely illogical to another. This is especially true when you are talking about moral values, ethics, and unquantifiable issues where emotions are involved. What we're dealing with here is straightforward deductive reasoning and informal logic, which have nothing to do with emotion. My position is that bringing back capital punishment inevitably raises the prospect of occasionally executing the innocent, and that this is in itself sufficient justification never to reinstate it; Bender's position is either that this is an acceptable trade-off, or that such atrocities can be avoided by the application of 'special tests' that must be met to qualify for the death penalty. His major error of reasoning is what's called the 'Anecdotal Evidence Fallacy'. His position is based almost entirely on his personal experience of a horrendous case in which the accused admitted their guilt, and could thus be considered a safe candidate for the gallows. This isolated case is being extrapolated to the universal, with the admission of guilt seemingly at the core of his 'special test'. It overlooks the fact that in countries such as England that don't have the death penalty, people only admit their guilt in the hope of receiving a more lenient sentence; if capital punishment were to be reinstated and an admission of guilt was the fast-track to the gallows that Bender's position posits, there would no longer be any incentive for the guilty to admit their guilt, and the central column of his 'special test' collapses. His position also ignores the fact that whether he thinks he can spot the genuinely guilty or not, the jury only return a verdict - the sentencing is down to the judge. With no 'special test' judges will have to rely on sentencing guidelines when deciding who gets the death penalty, thereby landing you right back at square one: the fact that the judicial process isn't, never was and never will be infallible, and that reinstating capital punishment inevitably means that sooner or later the innocent will be killed by the State. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Westerly Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 I'm no advocate of the death penalty mainly due to the horrendous executions carried out in Singapore. For drug trafficking the only sentence a judge can give if found guilty is death. When 16 year old girls get hanged after being duped into being drug mules I am not a fan. Certain crimes should carry whole life sentences. I have found though that as a subject for discussion it's pretty hard to get past the emotions whichever side of the argument you fall. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Westerly Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 30 minutes ago, RantMachine said: I've often felt that the issue is not the absence of a capital punishment, but rather a thousand and one other issues with every other aspect of the system that is already in place. Not enough rehabilitation, but also not firm enough punishment, and that's without even getting into idiotic sentencing practices and early releases. Although I do think we should introduce a system a bit like The Long Walk in Judge Dredd where after someone serves in parliament we force them to neck themselves as soon as they lose re-election. Don't think of it as capital punishment though; it's just the only safe way for a politician to retire. Somehow I think it might be difficult to get anyone to become a politician under those circumstances. Whether that would be a bad thing I leave to others to judge! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RantMachine Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 4 minutes ago, S-Westerly said: Somehow I think it might be difficult to get anyone to become a politician under those circumstances. Whether that would be a bad thing I leave to others to judge! Yeah that's pretty much the plan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkW Posted January 1, 2021 Author Share Posted January 1, 2021 1 hour ago, S-Westerly said: I have found though that as a subject for discussion it's pretty hard to get past the emotions whichever side of the argument you fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Westerly Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 2 hours ago, MarkW said: Spock is not human so I rest my case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyrider Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 7 minutes ago, S-Westerly said: Spock is not human so I rest my case. spock is no more 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 4 minutes ago, skyrider said: spock is no more Yes he had a long life but unfortunately could klingon no more. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six30 Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 6 minutes ago, Bender said: Yes he had a long life but unfortunately could klingon no more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 1 minute ago, Six30 said: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkW Posted January 2, 2021 Author Share Posted January 2, 2021 17 hours ago, S-Westerly said: Spock is not human so I rest my case. He was half human, which qualifies him at least as much as some of the people on here. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six30 Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 20 minutes ago, MarkW said: He was half human, which qualifies him at least as much as some of the people on here. im beginning to wonder about you , are you an alien life form or was you made in a Lab then took it over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throttled Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 Ian Hislop educates Priti Patel on why the death penalty is wrong. Our criminal justice system makes far too many mistakes to re-introduce the death penalty. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RantMachine Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 Very well argued and rather satisfying to watch. Thanks for sharing that! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throttled Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 If the UK had retained the death penalty, then there would have been a potential of 58 executions of people whose convictions have subsequently been overturned, as they were victims of miscarriages of justice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases#United_Kingdom There are others presently in prison appealing their convictions. That list includes other countries with adversarial justice systems similar to ours, where there has also been a shocking number of miscarriages of justice regarding murders. https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/perspective/death-penalty.aspx In the USA "Since 1976, 1,348 people have been executed in the US, but in that time 136 people have been exonerated from death row on the grounds that they categorically could not have committed the crime for which they were sentenced to death. In other words, for every ten people on death row who are executed, at least one person on death row is innocent." How barbaric is that? Anyone who wants the death penalty has to be able to say they would watch someone they know, whom they know did not commit a murder, die in front of them and still believe that was the right thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 On 01/01/2021 at 14:53, Slowlycatchymonkey said: Do they do Venn diagrams in crayon? No they always end up stuck up my nose.... OK I will concede the death penalty is on balance of probability not a good idea. That still leaves me where I started this off, I would still pull the rope for my delightful upstanding member of society. As I can't do this without fetching it back for all I guess it's something I will never get the offer of. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Westerly Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 The issue as I see it is that judges, juries and police are human and fallible. A really vile crime is going to disgust any normal person and anyone who is in the Dock with a decent case against him/her is going to be convicted and sent down. If we topped an innocent person then we've basically added to the actual criminals rap sheet but we can't give a life back. A full life term in harsh conditions would satisfy me personally more. Years of staring at four walls and knowing you'll never get out must be pretty grim. If you are innocent and eventually that's proved then at least you can get some kind of life back and ideally some compensation. Not ideal but better than being dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, S-Westerly said: The issue as I see it is that judges, juries and police are human and fallible. A really vile crime is going to disgust any normal person and anyone who is in the Dock with a decent case against him/her is going to be convicted and sent down. If we topped an innocent person then we've basically added to the actual criminals rap sheet but we can't give a life back. A full life term in harsh conditions would satisfy me personally more. Years of staring at four walls and knowing you'll never get out must be pretty grim. If you are innocent and eventually that's proved then at least you can get some kind of life back and ideally some compensation. Not ideal but better than being dead. There's definitely no comming back from dead, the judge on my case had to be prompted by the defence to remove the early release from the first sentence or it could have caused an issue with the second sentence, which was whole life with no parole His defence team were a dream for the prosecution, they did everything they could to say he's guilty and we know it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Richzx6r Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 2 minutes ago, Bender said: There's definitely no comming back from dead, the judge on my case had to be prompted by the defence to remove the early release from the first sentence or it could have caused an issue with the second sentence, which was whole life with no parole His defence team were a dream for the prosecution, they did everything they could to say he's guilty and we know it Jesus did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, Richzx6r said: Jesus did Dear God don't fetch religion into it... 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Westerly Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, Richzx6r said: Jesus did Allegedly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Richzx6r Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 2 minutes ago, S-Westerly said: Allegedly. Well he did you couldn't possibly make it up it must have happened.....its in a book and everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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