EU... in or out

[fullscreenaging]

If we ended up leaving, would we ever be allowed back in?

 

Why would we want to?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Guest]

If we ended up leaving, would we ever be allowed back in?

 

Why would we want to?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In case for whatever reason it royally fucks up.

I still don't think I'm voting as I'm not 100% either way and not into all this bitching that goes on between both parties. I think I'm one of the least qualified people to make such a political decision.

[MarkW]

If we ended up leaving, would we ever be allowed back in?

 

Why would we want to?

We might find that we preferred it when we had a say in EU policy, rather just having to accept it the way Norway, Iceland and Switzerland do.

[MarkW]

If you're still unclear what Brexit would and would not mean, this is worth looking at:

http://www.squareonelaw.com/announcements/eu-referendum-know-the-facts/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[XTreme]

I don't think anybody's going to let the facts get in the way of their nationalistic fervour Mark!

Edited June 11, 2016 by XTreme

[Guest]

Is there no un-biased websites giving the pro's and con's of both options?

[Six30]

Is there no un-biased websites giving the pro's and con's of both options?

 

Go for a walk up your high street where you live Monday , ask the first ten people you see if they are in or out , base your vote on the answers you get , if you can't get to it any other way......... It will be out .

[Guest]

Everyone I've asked are voting out but they don't really have legit reasons, mostly what they've heard on Facebook and that's obviously totally biased towards the page you 'like'.

[MarkW]

Is there no un-biased websites giving the pro's and con's of both options?

 

Go for a walk up your high street where you live Monday , ask the first ten people you see if they are in or out , base your vote on the answers you get , if you can't get to it any other way......... It will be out .

Then ask them if they have even the most rudimentary understanding of how Europe actually works, and decide if their opinion is worth a damn.

Edited June 11, 2016 by MarkW

[MarkW]

I don't think anybody's going to let the facts get in the way of their nationalistic fervour Mark!

Most of them either seem to be desperately looking for some evidence to support their desire to vote out, which is completely arse-about-face, or they couldn't care less about evidence because they know instinctively that we're better than funny-smelling foreigners.

[Six30]

Is there no un-biased websites giving the pro's and con's of both options?

 

Go for a walk up your high street where you live Monday , ask the first ten people you see if they are in or out , base your vote on the answers you get , if you can't get to it any other way......... It will be out .

Then ask them if they have even the most rudimentary understanding of how Europe actually works, and decide if their opinion is worth a damn.

 

ask the ones who say in the same question ... they will just scare monger you, cause more than likely thier work or company they work for would be affected if we left .... or would it.

[MarkW]

It's not scaremongering just because they don't like it. If you want to trade with Europe you have to accept free movement of people, and you still have to pay. Those are the facts. That's how it is for Norway, Iceland, Switzerland and Canada. If you are voting 'Out' because you believe we won't have to pay or accept free movement of people any more, you are wasting your vote.

[Guest]

taken from facebook. please read!

Pete Giles

7 June at 21:19 ·

OK,.. here's a fecking long list of depressing matters.

EU regulations cripple british farming

[Hoggs]

I think I'm one of the least qualified people to make such a political decision.

You're probably more qualified that most of the government

[MarkW]

taken from facebook. please read!

Pete Giles

7 June at 21:19 ·

OK,.. here's a fecking long list of depressing matters.

EU regulations cripple british farming

How so?

[Stu]

I asked at work the other day

In or Out??

most who answered out I asked them why? most immediately tried to argue with me and ask why not!! So I repeated again why? followed by you tell me why YOU want to leave!

most conversations went like this

Most couldn't answer it and those that did came back with well we can close the boarders!!!

So what would that solve then?

well it would stop them all coming over

well what about those that are here?

Throw them out!

What about all the Brits that live abroad? should all those come back?

Errrr errr errr

yup thought so you dont have a clue what you are talking about you are just jumping on the vote out bandwagon

[Six30]

I asked at work the other day

In or Out??

most who answered out I asked them why? most immediately tried to argue with me and ask why not!! So I repeated again why? followed by you tell me why YOU want to leave!

most conversations went like this

Most couldn't answer it and those that did came back with well we can close the boarders!!!

So what would that solve then?

well it would stop them all coming over

well what about those that are here?

Throw them out!

What about all the Brits that live abroad? should all those come back?

Errrr errr errr

yup thought so you dont have a clue what you are talking about you are just jumping on the vote out bandwagon

 

Do you work in Mc Donald's Stu

[Stu]

Do you work in Mc Donald's Stu

 

Not sure where I work some days!!

[Mr Fro]

taken from facebook.

*words*

You don't think it matters.

To be honest, I only read a fraction of that because it sounded like a frothing Daily Mailer.

I tried something similar at work Stu. The "inners" in the main gave fairly valid reasons in a reasoned, sensible way. Of the "outers", two of them were young 'uns and they just do what Facebook ranters tell them to do and the other, much older one stood up and gave us a loud, nonsensical tirade along the lines of "send 'em all back", "make Britain great again" and "they didn't fight for this".

[MarkW]

A FEW FACTS FOR THOSE WHO PERSIST IN TROTTING OUT THE STANDARD BREXIT TRIPE ABOUT RULES BEING FORCED ON US BY UNELECTED EUROPEAN BUREAUCRATS:

First, while the EU Commission can and does propose EU legislation, it has no vote on it. Only the directly elected MEPs and the Council can accept or reject the proposed legislation. The Council is made up of elected representatives of the 28 national governments. So the voting is all done by people who have been elected.

Secondly, because there is no EU government as such, the EU works as much as possible on the basis of consensus. What this means in practice is that, before putting forward proposed legislation for MEPs and the Council to vote on, the Commission spends a great deal of time consulting each of the 28 member governments, which gives each of the member countries an opportunity to influence the legislation being proposed. Far from having EU legislation foisted upon us, we (and every other EU member state) are fully involved in the process of creating it right from the start. This might explain why, over the last 6 years, the UK has agreed with 97% of all EU legislation passed.

Thirdly, for all areas of major significance – new members, for example, or changes to membership arrangements; trade deals; new or modified treaties – the EU can only act if the action is approved by the EU Parliament, the Council AND each of the 28 national governments. That’s not just some govt representative in Brussels: it means those plans have to be approved (or rejected) in our Houses of Parliament. Several member states have even opted to make their approval of such major policy areas subject to a national referendum. It only takes one national government to reject the proposed policy for the whole thing to fall through.

Fourthly, the EU only legislates in policy areas that have been either wholly or partially delegated to it by the member states. There is also a fundamental principle built into the EU (and being emphasised more and more in recent months and years) that decisions should be taken locally wherever possible and at EU level only where necessary for greater transnational effectiveness. The key policy areas affecting our day-to-day lives – housing, welfare, health, defence and foreign policy – are all entirely in our own hands.

Finally, even if we vote to leave the EU, our laws will still not be set entirely by elected representatives in our own parliament. When did any of us last elect anyone to the House of Lords? When did we elect our Head of State? Nor did we directly elect the Cabinet – each individual member of the Cabinet was elected as an MP, but was then appointed to a government position by the Prime Minister. None of us had a say in Jeremy Hunt becoming Secretary of State for Health, for example (and I daresay most of us would choose to kick him out if we could). And we certainly don’t get to elect or even influence the choice of Permanent Secretaries in the Civil Service. What’s more, thanks to our First Past the Post electoral system, not even the House of Commons genuinely reflects the actual numbers of votes cast for any given Party. The European Parliament, being elected on the basis of Proportional Representation, is a much fairer and more democratic reflection of the votes cast by the citizens of the EU.

IF YOU STILL DON'T GET IT YOU'RE EITHER NOT VERY BRIGHT, RACIST, OR POSSIBLY BOTH.

[Tango]

taken from facebook. please read!

Pete Giles

7 June at 21:19 ·

OK,.. here's a fecking long list of depressing matters.

EU regulations cripple british farming

What?......like the EU subsidies and grants that are available to farmers? I have a mate who's company assist farmers applying for these grants and subsidies....and he's gobsmacked at how many farmers are wanting to leave the EU!

[Joeman]

The interesting thing is that the majority of people voting out don't have the ability or inclination to leave the country should it all go tits up.

Most seem to have never moved more than a stone's throw away from where they grew up.

So if we do leave and it does go tits up, they can all stay where they've always lived and moan about it like they always do, whilst the sensible people make a quiet exit to other less broken countries.

Edit: and the problem isn't Europe, the problem with the UK is the succession is spineless idiotic politicians and law makes who don't have the balls to push back against these rules that are supposedly imposed by the EU.

If we do leave we'll just be stuck with the same spineless idiotic politicians and law makers but in a potentially more difficult and demanding environment for them to work. They can't cope as it is let alone adding the extra pressure of having to decide stuff for themselves!!

[Six30]

A FEW FACTS FOR THOSE WHO PERSIST IN TROTTING OUT THE STANDARD BREXIT TRIPE ABOUT RULES BEING FORCED ON US BY UNELECTED EUROPEAN BUREAUCRATS:

First, while the EU Commission can and does propose EU legislation, it has no vote on it. Only the directly elected MEPs and the Council can accept or reject the proposed legislation. The Council is made up of elected representatives of the 28 national governments. So the voting is all done by people who have been elected.

Secondly, because there is no EU government as such, the EU works as much as possible on the basis of consensus. What this means in practice is that, before putting forward proposed legislation for MEPs and the Council to vote on, the Commission spends a great deal of time consulting each of the 28 member governments, which gives each of the member countries an opportunity to influence the legislation being proposed. Far from having EU legislation foisted upon us, we (and every other EU member state) are fully involved in the process of creating it right from the start. This might explain why, over the last 6 years, the UK has agreed with 97% of all EU legislation passed.

Thirdly, for all areas of major significance – new members, for example, or changes to membership arrangements; trade deals; new or modified treaties – the EU can only act if the action is approved by the EU Parliament, the Council AND each of the 28 national governments. That’s not just some govt representative in Brussels: it means those plans have to be approved (or rejected) in our Houses of Parliament. Several member states have even opted to make their approval of such major policy areas subject to a national referendum. It only takes one national government to reject the proposed policy for the whole thing to fall through.

Fourthly, the EU only legislates in policy areas that have been either wholly or partially delegated to it by the member states. There is also a fundamental principle built into the EU (and being emphasised more and more in recent months and years) that decisions should be taken locally wherever possible and at EU level only where necessary for greater transnational effectiveness. The key policy areas affecting our day-to-day lives – housing, welfare, health, defence and foreign policy – are all entirely in our own hands.

Finally, even if we vote to leave the EU, our laws will still not be set entirely by elected representatives in our own parliament. When did any of us last elect anyone to the House of Lords? When did we elect our Head of State? Nor did we directly elect the Cabinet – each individual member of the Cabinet was elected as an MP, but was then appointed to a government position by the Prime Minister. None of us had a say in Jeremy Hunt becoming Secretary of State for Health, for example (and I daresay most of us would choose to kick him out if we could). And we certainly don’t get to elect or even influence the choice of Permanent Secretaries in the Civil Service. What’s more, thanks to our First Past the Post electoral system, not even the House of Commons genuinely reflects the actual numbers of votes cast for any given Party. The European Parliament, being elected on the basis of Proportional Representation, is a much fairer and more democratic reflection of the votes cast by the citizens of the EU.

IF YOU STILL DON'T GET IT YOU'RE EITHER NOT VERY BRIGHT, RACIST, OR POSSIBLY BOTH.

 

Thank the Lord you explained that .....The point is 27 other national governments are voting on things that will affect the uk.

[Tango]

This is quite wordy, but I think it's worth a read just to get some balance to some of the arguments:

Copied from a Facebook post:

Immigration has been in the news a lot lately, especially with the EU referendum coming up.

So let's use the tools and data of political science to understand the topic better.

Last year, 270,000 EU citizens immigrated to the UK, and 85,000 returned to the EU. So EU net migration was around 185,000 (1). Additionally, a similar number came from outside the EU, so 330,000 in total.

That was the highest ever level of EU migration – going all the way back to when we joined the EEC in 1975. Indeed during the 1980s the trend was the other way – British workers moved overseas, particularly to Germany, as their economy was doing better than ours at that time. You might remember the TV show ‘Auf Wiedersehen Pet’. Currently our economy is doing better than many European ones so more people are coming than going. But there's no reason to think that will always be the case.

The Leave campaign claim that EU migration is putting unsustainable pressure on our public services, worsening the housing crisis, putting pressure on the NHS, on schools and on our roads. Their latest TV broadcast for instance shows a sick older lady receiving NHS treatment much faster in an imaginary hospital if we leave the EU. Are they right?

Imagine that we left the EU and banned EU immigration completely. Nobody else allowed – no footballers, no entertainers, no chefs, no businessmen, no nurses, no cleaners, nobody. And we kept that door shut for ten years. And for comparison let’s say that we stayed in the EU and immigration continues at this year’s record level (the highest ever) for the next ten years. How would that impact our population and our public services?

In terms of population, we’d end up with 1.85m fewer people living in our country after the 10 years. That sounds like a lot of people, which it is. But we’re a big country – 64.6m in total at the moment (2). So even under these very extreme assumptions the difference is only 2.8%. Less than 1 in 35.

Would you notice the difference if there were 34 instead of 35 people in your doctors’ waiting room? If there were 34 instead of 35 cars ahead of you in the traffic jam? Would your child’s education suffer in a class of 35 instead of 34? I doubt it.

And don’t forget that we’re making crazily unrealistic assumptions about how much we could reduce immigration if we left the EU. Because even the most ardent Leave campaigners don’t say that we should stop immigration altogether. They usually talk of using a points system to reach the government’s net target of 100,000 per year. So the difference in population after 10 years wouldn’t be anything like as much as 1 in 35.

Let’s say we could hit the net target of 100,000 – half from the EU and half from non-EU countries for the sake of argument. In that case, the difference in population after 10 years would be 1.35m or 1 in 49.

And don’t forget that we’re also making another very aggressive assumption – that migration will continue at the same level as last year, our highest ever. It would be more realistic to take the average of the last five years migration (3). If we do that, then the difference in our population after ten years would be only 790,000 or 1 in 82.

1 in 82.

I can’t tell the difference between a crowd of 81 and 82 people (even when they were my own wedding guests!). Can you?

So here’s the thing: however you feel about EU immigration, even under extreme assumptions the impact on our overall population just isn’t very large.

Now at this point some of you might be thinking – “This can't be right - step outside and look with your own eyes! Britain is full of foreigners! The place I grew up is like another country! How can you claim that EU immigration is not significant?”.

I live in inner London so I can sense where you might be coming from. A few things to bear in mind:

1) The overwhelming majority of immigration to the UK over the last 40 years has been from outside the EU (3). However you feel about that, it has nothing to do with our EU membership;

2) Whether you like it or not, Britain has been a multicultural country for several generations at least. You can’t tell whether somebody is an immigrant just by looking at them (sorry if this is an obvious point). You might hazard a guess at their ethnicity or race but that’s a very different thing;

3) Historically, immigrants have clustered in particular areas of the country, so your neighbourhood may not be representative of the country at large;

4) British people from all backgrounds have become much more cosmopolitan in their tastes over the last 40 years. We drink in pubs much less, but enjoy wine at home or go to restaurants and cafes a lot more. Instead of just eating British food, we enjoy flavours from all over the world. So the retail and commercial landscape of our country has changed - to reflect our changing tastes, not just because of new arrivals.

“But wait! What when Turkey, Montenegro and Albania join the EU? We’ll be swamped!”

No we won’t.

Mainly because Turkey and Albania are nowhere near being eligible to join the EU, and Montenegro is tiny. Also don't forget there are 27 other countries in the EU to choose from if residents of those countries did fancy a change of scene.

And even if in the distant future many other countries did join and we did find ourselves swamped, Britain could leave. We’re free to leave the EU whenever we want. But if we leave and then want to rejoin, we’d need the consent of all 27 other member states. Better to stay and keep our options open than leave in fear of something that is very unlikely to happen.

And so far we’ve also not factored in the contribution that immigrants make to our country, and specifically our public finances. EU migrants contribute more in taxes than they use in public services, as they are much more likely to be of working age than the general population (4). So if we used that extra tax revenue to hire more doctors, build more schools, invest in transport and so on, we’d actually have better public services than we would without any EU immigration.

It takes time to hire and train teachers and doctors, build schools and roads, and so forth. So it’s true that a sudden influx of people into an area can put short-term pressure on services. But the fundamental reason for the issues we identified at the start – NHS pressure, oversubscribed schools, congested roads, the housing crisis – is not EU immigration.

We are now six years into a government austerity programme to attempt to balance the books. So it’s not surprising that our public services are feeling the pinch.

An ageing population and new advances in medicine put particular strain on the NHS.

For the last thirty years, we have failed by a wide margin to build enough houses in the UK. Interest rates have been at an ‘emergency’ rate of 0.5% for the last seven years. That is why house prices are so high.

And this story of decades of underinvestment is repeated for our roads and railways too.

All of these issues are home-grown. And all of those policy areas are entirely within the control of our government in Westminster. They have nothing to do with the EU and are not the fault of EU migrants.

Finally, there’s been plenty of academic research into this issue, including a summary paper just published by the London School of Economics (5).

The research shows, contrary to many tabloid headlines, that

1) Immigrants do not take a disproportionate share of jobs created by our economy;

2) There is no evidence of an overall negative impact of immigration on wages;

3) There is no evidence that EU migrants affect the labour market performance of native-born workers (i.e. make it harder for native-born workers to get promoted, get a pay rise, etc)

So it is clear from examining the evidence that fears of immigration have been blown out of all proportion by the Eurosceptic press and the Leave campaign.

But what about all that money we send the EU? Couldn't we use that to improve public services?

Yes, but it wouldn't go very far, and it would be outweighed by the economic damage from leaving.

Our net contribution to the EU was £8.5bn last year (6) which works out at 36 pence per person per day. That is a drop in the ocean compared to our annual NHS budget of £116.4bn (7).

And if you’re trying to work out the impact of leaving the EU on our public services, you can’t just look at our net contribution. You also need to consider the effect that leaving would have on the size of our economy, and hence the tax revenue the government can generate.

Seven highly respected independent economic organisations have tried to work this out (8). And all seven of them have reached the same conclusion: that the economic damage caused by Brexit would more than offset the saving from our EU contribution.

The best estimate suggests that the government would have between £20bn and £40bn less to spend on public services than if we remained in the EU (9). So our public services wouldn't be better if we left the EU - they would be much worse.

So if we left the EU to ‘take control of immigration’, and then reduced it as discussed above, we’d still have all the same problems we have today – the housing crisis, an overstretched NHS, oversubscribed schools, heavy traffic, etc.

But we’d also have two even more serious problems to add to the list: a recession and the unknown consequences of destabilising the very institution which has secured peace in Europe for the last 70 years.

People are sceptical of economists’ forecasts. But you don’t even need to estimate many of the economic problems that will arise from Brexit – you can see them already in the currency markets.

The pound suffered its biggest one day fall in seven years when Boris and other MPs joined the leave campaign (10). You can watch the impact of movements in the referendum opinion polls in the EUR/GBP exchange rate. A major bank recently warned that Brexit could wipe 20% off the value of the pound through devaluation (11).

Devaluation sounds like a dry and abstract concept. So let me explain what that means:

20% of your life savings wiped out overnight.

The numbers in your bank account will be the same, but what you can buy with it will be 20% less, since most things we buy these days come from overseas.

Only the other day the Financial Times reported that hedge funds are planning to run their own private exit polls on referendum day to speculate on the currency markets ahead of the official result (12).

Just as during the ERM crisis of 1992, the vultures are circling, waiting to feast on our self-inflicted wounds.

And here’s another very clear threat: to our jobs. Only last Friday, Jamie Dimon, CEO of JP Morgan, warned his staff in Bournemouth that one, two or even four thousand of them would be made redundant if we leave the EU (13). Imagine how his staff are feeling today. And as a manager, let me tell you: that’s not the kind of thing you tell your employees unless you’re deadly serious.

Even leading Leave campaigner Michael Gove admitted just a few days ago that jobs are at risk if we leave the EU (14). Multimillionaire UKIP donor Arron Banks described this economic damage as ‘a price worth paying’ (15).

Arron Banks, Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage might be rich enough to gamble their jobs on Brexit - but are you?

It is quite possible that some of your friends and family will lose their jobs as a direct result of Britain leaving the EU. Do you want to be responsible for that?

We took an evidence-based look at the immigration and EU issue above. But the Leave campaign and Eurosceptic press (Express, Sun and Mail in particular) choose to paint a very different picture. A picture which blows these statistics out of all proportion. 'Strangers in Our Own Country' 'Our borders are out of control!'. You know the stuff I mean. Pictures which invite us to eye our friends and neighbours with suspicion and even hostility. Editorial which pins the blame for every problem from housing to wages to traffic to NHS waiting times on immigrants.

And it's not even because they don't know any better. The leaders of the Leave campaign and the political editors of those newspapers are clever, well-educated people. They know the facts I set out above just as well as I do.

Yet instead of presenting a balanced view, they choose to deliberately whip up fear and suspicion of immigrants for their own political purposes.

Shame on them.

Why? Because appealing to people's basest prejudices sells newspapers and gathers votes. Just ask Donald Trump.

And what greater contrast could there be between the divisive rhetoric of the leave campaign and the noble vision of the EU's founding fathers.

Men who, amid the ashes of World War Two, set their national differences aside and dared - not just to dream but to build - a better Europe for us all.

A Europe in which war was “not only unthinkable … but materially impossible” (16).

Here’s Winston Churchill addressing the Congress of Europe in 1948:

“A high and a solemn responsibility rests upon us here ... If we allow ourselves to be rent and disordered by pettiness and small disputes, if we fail in clarity of view or courage in action, a priceless occasion may be cast away for ever. But if we all pull together and pool the luck and the comradeship - and we shall need all the comradeship and not a little luck … then all the little children who are now growing up in this tormented world may find themselves not the victors nor the vanquished in the fleeting triumphs of one country over another in the bloody turmoil of … war, but the heirs of all the treasures of the past and the masters of all the science, the abundance and the glories of the future.”

And - against all the odds - we did it.

We pooled the luck and the comradeship and achieved Churchill’s vision.

Those “little children” are now retired – the first generation in a thousand years to grow up without the horror of war in Europe.

Instead of building weapons, our scientists work together to solve the greatest problems of our age.

We enjoy a standard of living unimaginable to people in 1948.

All the cities, art, history, people, food and culture of this wonderful continent are open to us whenever we want to visit, to live or to work.

Hundreds of millions of European people who until only a few decades ago were ruled by dictators or communists now enjoy democracy, human rights, the rule of law and the abundance of the free market.

I think that’s worth 36 pence a day.

And yet here we stand, about to turn our backs on this great project, thanks to cynical newspaper owners and barefaced lies from the Leave campaign.

Forget what the Sun says.

Forget what’s good for Boris’ and Farage’s careers.

Listen to every current and former British Prime Minister (17). Every other major UK political party leader (18). To Barack Obama, to Hillary Clinton, to Angela Merkel and a host of other world leaders (19). To Stephen Hawking and 83% of scientists (20). To 40 religious leaders (21). To 300 leading historians (22). To the Trades Union Congress and our six largest trades unions (23). To 88% of economists (24). To the National Farmers Union (25). To the Chief Executive of NHS England (26), to the Royal College of Midwives (27) To British businesses of all sizes (28).

For there is an overwhelming consensus among experts of all kinds that Britain is stronger in Europe.

And what does the Leave campaign say to this?

“I think people in this country have had enough of experts” (Michael Gove, Friday 3rd June)

What an extraordinary response.

If you were sick, you’d want to see a doctor. If you had a plane to fly, you’d want a pilot. So when we have the most important political, economic and foreign policy decision of our lifetime to make I think we should listen to the people who are in the best position to evaluate what to do. And they’re all telling us the same thing – we’re much better off in Europe.

It might not be what Michael Gove wants to hear. But it sounds like the right answer to me.

So when you’re in the polling station on Thursday 23rd - with that stubby little pencil in your hand –Vote Remain.

Not in fear, but with pride – about what we, the people of Europe, have achieved together.

Not in ignorance, but with science firmly on our side.

And not alone, but with the greatest statesmen of the past three generations urging us on.

And then in years to come, when your children ask you how you voted in the referendum of 2016, you can look them in the eye and tell them you were on the right side of history.

Thank you for reading

(1) https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(2) https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(3) http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics/#create-graph" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(4) http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21631076-rather-lot-according-new-piece-research-what-have-immigrants-ever-done-us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(5) http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/ea019.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(6) https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(7) http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/thenhs/about/Pages/overview.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(8) http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/comms/r116.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(9) http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/comms/r116.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(10) https://next.ft.com/content/7fa04d70-d911-11e5-a72f-1e7744c66818" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(11) https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/24/brexit-could-wipe-20-percent-off-the-pound-warns-hsbc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(12) https://next.ft.com/content/7e26d896-241c-11e6-9d4d-c11776a5124d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(13) BBC Radio 4, 3rd June 2016; see also http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36450460" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(14) http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-can-t-guarantee-everyone-will-keep-their-jobs-admits-gove-7c5zttk79" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(15) https://www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-institutions/news/73963/arron-banks-%C2%A34300-loss-price-worth-paying-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(16) http://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/declaration-of-9-may-1950" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(17) David Cameron http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/24/david-cameron-launches-tory-campaign-to-stay-in-the-eu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ; Gordon Brown http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/10/inspiring-view-britishness-defeat-brexit-isolationists;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Tony Blair http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36408239;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; John Major http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12199111/John-Major-Voting-to-leave-will-poison-Europe-and-divide-West.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(18) Jeremy Corbyn (Labour) http://labourlist.org/2016/04/europe-needs-to-change-but-i-am-voting-to-stay-corbyns-full-speech-on-the-eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Tim Farron (Lib Dem) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3243112/Britain-impoverished-backwater-leave-EU-claims-Lib-Dem-leader-Tim-Farron.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Caroline Lucas (Green) http://europe.newsweek.com/caroline-lucas-brexit-european-referendum-425066" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Nicola Sturgeon (SNP) http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6944807/Nicola-Sturgeon-vows-to-back-argument-to-keep-Scotland-in-European-Union.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(19) Barack Obama http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/21/as-your-friend-let-me-tell-you-that-the-eu-makes-britain-even-gr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ; Hillary Clinton http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/23/hillary-clinton-britain-should-stay-in-eu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Angela Merkel http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36436726;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Shinzo Abe http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/05/japanese-prime-minister-shinzo-abe-warns-brexit-could-hit-foreig/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(20) https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/may/31/stephen-hawking-donald-trump-popularity-inexplicable-and-brexit-spells-disaster" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ; http://www.nature.com/news/scientists-say-no-to-uk-exit-from-europe-in-nature-poll-1.19636" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(21) http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/religious-leaders-oppose-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(22) http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/25/vote-to-leave-eu-will-condemn-britain-to-irrelevance-say-historians" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(23) http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-unions-idUKKCN0V517D" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(24) http://www.itv.com/news/2016-05-29/almost-nine-in-10-economists-believe-leaving-the-eu-would-damage-the-uk-economy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(25) http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/18/british-farmers-uk-eu-nfu-brexit-farming" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(26) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36353145" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(27) https://www.rcm.org.uk/news-views-and-analysis/news/royal-college-of-midwives-supports-staying-in-eu-0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(28) http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-eu-referendum-what-will-happen-to-british-business-if-uk-votes-to-leave-a7046941.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[nicklucey]

This is quite wordy, but I think it's worth a read just to get some balance to some of the arguments:

Copied from a Facebook post:

Immigration has been in the news a lot lately, especially with the EU referendum coming up.

So let's use the tools and data of political science to understand the topic better.

Last year, 270,000 EU citizens immigrated to the UK, and 85,000 returned to the EU. So EU net migration was around 185,000 (1). Additionally, a similar number came from outside the EU, so 330,000 in total.

That was the highest ever level of EU migration – going all the way back to when we joined the EEC in 1975. Indeed during the 1980s the trend was the other way – British workers moved overseas, particularly to Germany, as their economy was doing better than ours at that time. You might remember the TV show ‘Auf Wiedersehen Pet’. Currently our economy is doing better than many European ones so more people are coming than going. But there's no reason to think that will always be the case.

The Leave campaign claim that EU migration is putting unsustainable pressure on our public services, worsening the housing crisis, putting pressure on the NHS, on schools and on our roads. Their latest TV broadcast for instance shows a sick older lady receiving NHS treatment much faster in an imaginary hospital if we leave the EU. Are they right?

Imagine that we left the EU and banned EU immigration completely. Nobody else allowed – no footballers, no entertainers, no chefs, no businessmen, no nurses, no cleaners, nobody. And we kept that door shut for ten years. And for comparison let’s say that we stayed in the EU and immigration continues at this year’s record level (the highest ever) for the next ten years. How would that impact our population and our public services?

In terms of population, we’d end up with 1.85m fewer people living in our country after the 10 years. That sounds like a lot of people, which it is. But we’re a big country – 64.6m in total at the moment (2). So even under these very extreme assumptions the difference is only 2.8%. Less than 1 in 35.

Would you notice the difference if there were 34 instead of 35 people in your doctors’ waiting room? If there were 34 instead of 35 cars ahead of you in the traffic jam? Would your child’s education suffer in a class of 35 instead of 34? I doubt it.

And don’t forget that we’re making crazily unrealistic assumptions about how much we could reduce immigration if we left the EU. Because even the most ardent Leave campaigners don’t say that we should stop immigration altogether. They usually talk of using a points system to reach the government’s net target of 100,000 per year. So the difference in population after 10 years wouldn’t be anything like as much as 1 in 35.

Let’s say we could hit the net target of 100,000 – half from the EU and half from non-EU countries for the sake of argument. In that case, the difference in population after 10 years would be 1.35m or 1 in 49.

And don’t forget that we’re also making another very aggressive assumption – that migration will continue at the same level as last year, our highest ever. It would be more realistic to take the average of the last five years migration (3). If we do that, then the difference in our population after ten years would be only 790,000 or 1 in 82.

1 in 82.

I can’t tell the difference between a crowd of 81 and 82 people (even when they were my own wedding guests!). Can you?

So here’s the thing: however you feel about EU immigration, even under extreme assumptions the impact on our overall population just isn’t very large.

Now at this point some of you might be thinking – “This can't be right - step outside and look with your own eyes! Britain is full of foreigners! The place I grew up is like another country! How can you claim that EU immigration is not significant?”.

I live in inner London so I can sense where you might be coming from. A few things to bear in mind:

1) The overwhelming majority of immigration to the UK over the last 40 years has been from outside the EU (3). However you feel about that, it has nothing to do with our EU membership;

2) Whether you like it or not, Britain has been a multicultural country for several generations at least. You can’t tell whether somebody is an immigrant just by looking at them (sorry if this is an obvious point). You might hazard a guess at their ethnicity or race but that’s a very different thing;

3) Historically, immigrants have clustered in particular areas of the country, so your neighbourhood may not be representative of the country at large;

4) British people from all backgrounds have become much more cosmopolitan in their tastes over the last 40 years. We drink in pubs much less, but enjoy wine at home or go to restaurants and cafes a lot more. Instead of just eating British food, we enjoy flavours from all over the world. So the retail and commercial landscape of our country has changed - to reflect our changing tastes, not just because of new arrivals.

“But wait! What when Turkey, Montenegro and Albania join the EU? We’ll be swamped!”

No we won’t.

Mainly because Turkey and Albania are nowhere near being eligible to join the EU, and Montenegro is tiny. Also don't forget there are 27 other countries in the EU to choose from if residents of those countries did fancy a change of scene.

And even if in the distant future many other countries did join and we did find ourselves swamped, Britain could leave. We’re free to leave the EU whenever we want. But if we leave and then want to rejoin, we’d need the consent of all 27 other member states. Better to stay and keep our options open than leave in fear of something that is very unlikely to happen.

And so far we’ve also not factored in the contribution that immigrants make to our country, and specifically our public finances. EU migrants contribute more in taxes than they use in public services, as they are much more likely to be of working age than the general population (4). So if we used that extra tax revenue to hire more doctors, build more schools, invest in transport and so on, we’d actually have better public services than we would without any EU immigration.

It takes time to hire and train teachers and doctors, build schools and roads, and so forth. So it’s true that a sudden influx of people into an area can put short-term pressure on services. But the fundamental reason for the issues we identified at the start – NHS pressure, oversubscribed schools, congested roads, the housing crisis – is not EU immigration.

We are now six years into a government austerity programme to attempt to balance the books. So it’s not surprising that our public services are feeling the pinch.

An ageing population and new advances in medicine put particular strain on the NHS.

For the last thirty years, we have failed by a wide margin to build enough houses in the UK. Interest rates have been at an ‘emergency’ rate of 0.5% for the last seven years. That is why house prices are so high.

And this story of decades of underinvestment is repeated for our roads and railways too.

All of these issues are home-grown. And all of those policy areas are entirely within the control of our government in Westminster. They have nothing to do with the EU and are not the fault of EU migrants.

Finally, there’s been plenty of academic research into this issue, including a summary paper just published by the London School of Economics (5).

The research shows, contrary to many tabloid headlines, that

1) Immigrants do not take a disproportionate share of jobs created by our economy;

2) There is no evidence of an overall negative impact of immigration on wages;

3) There is no evidence that EU migrants affect the labour market performance of native-born workers (i.e. make it harder for native-born workers to get promoted, get a pay rise, etc)

So it is clear from examining the evidence that fears of immigration have been blown out of all proportion by the Eurosceptic press and the Leave campaign.

But what about all that money we send the EU? Couldn't we use that to improve public services?

Yes, but it wouldn't go very far, and it would be outweighed by the economic damage from leaving.

Our net contribution to the EU was £8.5bn last year (6) which works out at 36 pence per person per day. That is a drop in the ocean compared to our annual NHS budget of £116.4bn (7).

And if you’re trying to work out the impact of leaving the EU on our public services, you can’t just look at our net contribution. You also need to consider the effect that leaving would have on the size of our economy, and hence the tax revenue the government can generate.

Seven highly respected independent economic organisations have tried to work this out (8). And all seven of them have reached the same conclusion: that the economic damage caused by Brexit would more than offset the saving from our EU contribution.

The best estimate suggests that the government would have between £20bn and £40bn less to spend on public services than if we remained in the EU (9). So our public services wouldn't be better if we left the EU - they would be much worse.

So if we left the EU to ‘take control of immigration’, and then reduced it as discussed above, we’d still have all the same problems we have today – the housing crisis, an overstretched NHS, oversubscribed schools, heavy traffic, etc.

But we’d also have two even more serious problems to add to the list: a recession and the unknown consequences of destabilising the very institution which has secured peace in Europe for the last 70 years.

People are sceptical of economists’ forecasts. But you don’t even need to estimate many of the economic problems that will arise from Brexit – you can see them already in the currency markets.

The pound suffered its biggest one day fall in seven years when Boris and other MPs joined the leave campaign (10). You can watch the impact of movements in the referendum opinion polls in the EUR/GBP exchange rate. A major bank recently warned that Brexit could wipe 20% off the value of the pound through devaluation (11).

Devaluation sounds like a dry and abstract concept. So let me explain what that means:

20% of your life savings wiped out overnight.

The numbers in your bank account will be the same, but what you can buy with it will be 20% less, since most things we buy these days come from overseas.

Only the other day the Financial Times reported that hedge funds are planning to run their own private exit polls on referendum day to speculate on the currency markets ahead of the official result (12).

Just as during the ERM crisis of 1992, the vultures are circling, waiting to feast on our self-inflicted wounds.

And here’s another very clear threat: to our jobs. Only last Friday, Jamie Dimon, CEO of JP Morgan, warned his staff in Bournemouth that one, two or even four thousand of them would be made redundant if we leave the EU (13). Imagine how his staff are feeling today. And as a manager, let me tell you: that’s not the kind of thing you tell your employees unless you’re deadly serious.

Even leading Leave campaigner Michael Gove admitted just a few days ago that jobs are at risk if we leave the EU (14). Multimillionaire UKIP donor Arron Banks described this economic damage as ‘a price worth paying’ (15).

Arron Banks, Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage might be rich enough to gamble their jobs on Brexit - but are you?

It is quite possible that some of your friends and family will lose their jobs as a direct result of Britain leaving the EU. Do you want to be responsible for that?

We took an evidence-based look at the immigration and EU issue above. But the Leave campaign and Eurosceptic press (Express, Sun and Mail in particular) choose to paint a very different picture. A picture which blows these statistics out of all proportion. 'Strangers in Our Own Country' 'Our borders are out of control!'. You know the stuff I mean. Pictures which invite us to eye our friends and neighbours with suspicion and even hostility. Editorial which pins the blame for every problem from housing to wages to traffic to NHS waiting times on immigrants.

And it's not even because they don't know any better. The leaders of the Leave campaign and the political editors of those newspapers are clever, well-educated people. They know the facts I set out above just as well as I do.

Yet instead of presenting a balanced view, they choose to deliberately whip up fear and suspicion of immigrants for their own political purposes.

Shame on them.

Why? Because appealing to people's basest prejudices sells newspapers and gathers votes. Just ask Donald Trump.

And what greater contrast could there be between the divisive rhetoric of the leave campaign and the noble vision of the EU's founding fathers.

Men who, amid the ashes of World War Two, set their national differences aside and dared - not just to dream but to build - a better Europe for us all.

A Europe in which war was “not only unthinkable … but materially impossible” (16).

Here’s Winston Churchill addressing the Congress of Europe in 1948:

“A high and a solemn responsibility rests upon us here ... If we allow ourselves to be rent and disordered by pettiness and small disputes, if we fail in clarity of view or courage in action, a priceless occasion may be cast away for ever. But if we all pull together and pool the luck and the comradeship - and we shall need all the comradeship and not a little luck … then all the little children who are now growing up in this tormented world may find themselves not the victors nor the vanquished in the fleeting triumphs of one country over another in the bloody turmoil of … war, but the heirs of all the treasures of the past and the masters of all the science, the abundance and the glories of the future.”

And - against all the odds - we did it.

We pooled the luck and the comradeship and achieved Churchill’s vision.

Those “little children” are now retired – the first generation in a thousand years to grow up without the horror of war in Europe.

Instead of building weapons, our scientists work together to solve the greatest problems of our age.

We enjoy a standard of living unimaginable to people in 1948.

All the cities, art, history, people, food and culture of this wonderful continent are open to us whenever we want to visit, to live or to work.

Hundreds of millions of European people who until only a few decades ago were ruled by dictators or communists now enjoy democracy, human rights, the rule of law and the abundance of the free market.

I think that’s worth 36 pence a day.

And yet here we stand, about to turn our backs on this great project, thanks to cynical newspaper owners and barefaced lies from the Leave campaign.

Forget what the Sun says.

Forget what’s good for Boris’ and Farage’s careers.

Listen to every current and former British Prime Minister (17). Every other major UK political party leader (18). To Barack Obama, to Hillary Clinton, to Angela Merkel and a host of other world leaders (19). To Stephen Hawking and 83% of scientists (20). To 40 religious leaders (21). To 300 leading historians (22). To the Trades Union Congress and our six largest trades unions (23). To 88% of economists (24). To the National Farmers Union (25). To the Chief Executive of NHS England (26), to the Royal College of Midwives (27) To British businesses of all sizes (28).

For there is an overwhelming consensus among experts of all kinds that Britain is stronger in Europe.

And what does the Leave campaign say to this?

“I think people in this country have had enough of experts” (Michael Gove, Friday 3rd June)

What an extraordinary response.

If you were sick, you’d want to see a doctor. If you had a plane to fly, you’d want a pilot. So when we have the most important political, economic and foreign policy decision of our lifetime to make I think we should listen to the people who are in the best position to evaluate what to do. And they’re all telling us the same thing – we’re much better off in Europe.

It might not be what Michael Gove wants to hear. But it sounds like the right answer to me.

So when you’re in the polling station on Thursday 23rd - with that stubby little pencil in your hand –Vote Remain.

Not in fear, but with pride – about what we, the people of Europe, have achieved together.

Not in ignorance, but with science firmly on our side.

And not alone, but with the greatest statesmen of the past three generations urging us on.

And then in years to come, when your children ask you how you voted in the referendum of 2016, you can look them in the eye and tell them you were on the right side of history.

Thank you for reading

(1) https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(2) https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(3) http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/statistics-net-migration-statistics/#create-graph" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(4) http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21631076-rather-lot-according-new-piece-research-what-have-immigrants-ever-done-us" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(5) http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/ea019.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(6) https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(7) http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/thenhs/about/Pages/overview.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(8) http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/comms/r116.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(9) http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/publications/comms/r116.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(10) https://next.ft.com/content/7fa04d70-d911-11e5-a72f-1e7744c66818" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(11) https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/24/brexit-could-wipe-20-percent-off-the-pound-warns-hsbc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(12) https://next.ft.com/content/7e26d896-241c-11e6-9d4d-c11776a5124d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(13) BBC Radio 4, 3rd June 2016; see also http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36450460" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(14) http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-can-t-guarantee-everyone-will-keep-their-jobs-admits-gove-7c5zttk79" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(15) https://www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-institutions/news/73963/arron-banks-%C2%A34300-loss-price-worth-paying-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(16) http://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/declaration-of-9-may-1950" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(17) David Cameron http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/24/david-cameron-launches-tory-campaign-to-stay-in-the-eu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ; Gordon Brown http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/10/inspiring-view-britishness-defeat-brexit-isolationists;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Tony Blair http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36408239;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; John Major http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12199111/John-Major-Voting-to-leave-will-poison-Europe-and-divide-West.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(18) Jeremy Corbyn (Labour) http://labourlist.org/2016/04/europe-needs-to-change-but-i-am-voting-to-stay-corbyns-full-speech-on-the-eu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Tim Farron (Lib Dem) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3243112/Britain-impoverished-backwater-leave-EU-claims-Lib-Dem-leader-Tim-Farron.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Caroline Lucas (Green) http://europe.newsweek.com/caroline-lucas-brexit-european-referendum-425066" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Nicola Sturgeon (SNP) http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6944807/Nicola-Sturgeon-vows-to-back-argument-to-keep-Scotland-in-European-Union.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(19) Barack Obama http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/21/as-your-friend-let-me-tell-you-that-the-eu-makes-britain-even-gr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ; Hillary Clinton http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/23/hillary-clinton-britain-should-stay-in-eu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Angela Merkel http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36436726;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Shinzo Abe http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/05/japanese-prime-minister-shinzo-abe-warns-brexit-could-hit-foreig/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(20) https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/may/31/stephen-hawking-donald-trump-popularity-inexplicable-and-brexit-spells-disaster" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ; http://www.nature.com/news/scientists-say-no-to-uk-exit-from-europe-in-nature-poll-1.19636" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(21) http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/28/religious-leaders-oppose-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(22) http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/25/vote-to-leave-eu-will-condemn-britain-to-irrelevance-say-historians" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(23) http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-unions-idUKKCN0V517D" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(24) http://www.itv.com/news/2016-05-29/almost-nine-in-10-economists-believe-leaving-the-eu-would-damage-the-uk-economy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(25) http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/18/british-farmers-uk-eu-nfu-brexit-farming" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(26) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36353145" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(27) https://www.rcm.org.uk/news-views-and-analysis/news/royal-college-of-midwives-supports-staying-in-eu-0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(28) http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-eu-referendum-what-will-happen-to-british-business-if-uk-votes-to-leave-a7046941.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Very nicely done.