Bender Posted March 21, 2022 Author Share Posted March 21, 2022 22 minutes ago, KiwiBob said: Too much western interference in 2014. From 2014 ... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict A country has the right to self determination without being wiped of the face of the planet, they have had elections since 2014, have opposition parties. Ukrain wasn't swayed towards the west by the west the people simply wanted a more western biased country, it was the Putin puppet that switched to Russia that started it. I suppose the west is responsible for the way Belarus has gone too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Westerly Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 54 minutes ago, Fozzie said: I'm curious, does he not see the glaring issues in Putin's statements? De-nazifying a place that is run by a jewish president, where the total far right wing vote share in 2019 made up 2%. And what of the extensive coverage of Russian's essentially blind firing rockets into residential areas? It's almost on the level in my mind as Boris Johnson claiming America is under the grip of a secret, extreme socialist regime that needs combating... While Trump was president. I can only assume we are missing something, as there's being mislead by your government/media, and then there's not spotting blatent issues. Are they saying Zelensky is a fake jew? Most Russians over the age of 30 harbour a degree of resentment towards the West from when the Soviet Union imploded. With some justification I might add. We extended a helping hand to their former satrapies in Eastern Europe but nothing much to them. Various Western companies tried to plunder their raw materials only to be out brutalised by the current oligarchs. Follow that up with a relentless campaign of anti Western propaganda for at least 20 years and you see where it all leads to. Remember that Russia is still a huge country with (I think) 8 time zones within it and the vast majority of Russians don't travel, don't speak any language other than their own and rely on their local press (nearly all state controlled) for news. Of the ones I work with who you'd think by travelling and working with foreigners would be more enlightened about half still seem to believe the government line. God knows why. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mississippi Bullfrog Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 3 hours ago, S-Westerly said: Most Russians over the age of 30 harbour a degree of resentment towards the West from when the Soviet Union imploded. With some justification I might add. We extended a helping hand to their former satrapies in Eastern Europe but nothing much to them. Various Western companies tried to plunder their raw materials only to be out brutalised by the current oligarchs. Follow that up with a relentless campaign of anti Western propaganda for at least 20 years and you see where it all leads to. Remember that Russia is still a huge country with (I think) 8 time zones within it and the vast majority of Russians don't travel, don't speak any language other than their own and rely on their local press (nearly all state controlled) for news. Of the ones I work with who you'd think by travelling and working with foreigners would be more enlightened about half still seem to believe the government line. God knows why. To be fair Britain is a very small country with a wider range of media and information - but people still form the strangest of opinions and world views. The algorithyms used by social media to reinforce people's viewpoints ends up with a newsfeed not very dissimilar to that imposed by Putin. Either way you end up with a worldview which disappears up your own backside. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzie Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 Just blows me away a Russian can leave their country, see the other side, and even if they still hold harsh views of the west, still side entirely with their governments narrative. I've visited a fair few places around the world, largely for work, and always struck by how their media interprets the world. America is the worst, they are the worst I've seen for whipping up their own people into a frenzy. Ukraine received Panzerfaust-3IT anti-tank weapons today. Reportedly able to disable any tank that Russia has in service. Some of the videos I've seen lately show Ukrainians ambushing tank convoys on the road, so this will probably help them do some serious damage. Unfortunately, it will be needed to make someone like Putin give a peace deal worth having. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
husoi Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 You have to love them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilM Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 On 21/03/2022 at 11:33, S-Westerly said: Most Russians over the age of 30 harbour a degree of resentment towards the West from when the Soviet Union imploded. With some justification I might add. We extended a helping hand to their former satrapies in Eastern Europe but nothing much to them. Various Western companies tried to plunder their raw materials only to be out brutalised by the current oligarchs. Follow that up with a relentless campaign of anti Western propaganda for at least 20 years and you see where it all leads to. Remember that Russia is still a huge country with (I think) 8 time zones within it and the vast majority of Russians don't travel, don't speak any language other than their own and rely on their local press (nearly all state controlled) for news. Of the ones I work with who you'd think by travelling and working with foreigners would be more enlightened about half still seem to believe the government line. God knows why. Have we not seen this in Europe before..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilM Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 On 21/03/2022 at 11:07, Bender said: A country has the right to self determination without being wiped of the face of the planet, they have had elections since 2014, have opposition parties. Ukrain wasn't swayed towards the west by the west the people simply wanted a more western biased country, it was the Putin puppet that switched to Russia that started it. I suppose the west is responsible for the way Belarus has gone too. I feel most UK citizens have a very short memory. Its not like the UK has never interfered with democratic (and un democratic when its still nowt to do with us). In fact not only have we interfered we've done the exact same thing Russia has done. From Ireland to India. As a nation we have this strange ability to re write our own history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy sugger Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 (edited) Mauritius, anyone? We still say they belong to us, and chucked everyone off in the seventies Edited March 22, 2022 by billy sugger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted March 22, 2022 Author Share Posted March 22, 2022 3 hours ago, NeilM said: I feel most UK citizens have a very short memory. Its not like the UK has never interfered with democratic (and un democratic when its still nowt to do with us). In fact not only have we interfered we've done the exact same thing Russia has done. From Ireland to India. As a nation we have this strange ability to re write our own history. Tony Blair aside you can't compare history with what's going on in ukrain, how far back do you intend to draw the line in the historical sand, you would be hard pushed to find a majoy European country that does not have a colonial past, if Scotland pushes for independence I doubt we would decide to pummel Edinburgh and Glasgow to oblivion, Ukrain was already independent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Westerly Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 3 hours ago, billy sugger said: Mauritius, anyone? We still say they belong to us, and chucked everyone off in the seventies Not Mauritius, Chagos Archipelago which includes Diego Garcia which is now an enormous US base. The islanders were evacuated to Mauritius and yes they were and are treated like shit. Still can't compare to bombing a country to oblivion though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilM Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 57 minutes ago, Bender said: Tony Blair aside you can't compare history with what's going on in ukrain, how far back do you intend to draw the line in the historical sand, you would be hard pushed to find a majoy European country that does not have a colonial past, if Scotland pushes for independence I doubt we would decide to pummel Edinburgh and Glasgow to oblivion, Ukrain was already independent. Historical sense. Our generation is not long forgotten history. My point is: Whilst I sincerely feel for the Ukraine citizens and I think Russian action is deplorable. The public out pouring of grief and disgust in this country is a little hypocritical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted March 22, 2022 Author Share Posted March 22, 2022 4 minutes ago, NeilM said: Historical sense. Our generation is not long forgotten history. My point is: Whilst I sincerely feel for the Ukraine citizens and I think Russian action is deplorable. The public out pouring of grief and disgust in this country is a little hypocritical. Your point of view to which your entitled, if we were currently leveling Wales I may be in agreement but we're not, I can have no control of our past, but I can support Ukraine 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilM Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 11 minutes ago, Bender said: Your point of view to which your entitled, if we were currently leveling Wales I may be in agreement but we're not, I can have no control of our past, but I can support Ukraine I too support the Ukraine. Its the hypocrisy from the media I have a massive issue with. BTW. Leave Wales alone. Nuke Manchester.... 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mississippi Bullfrog Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 The 1807 bombardment of Copenhagen by the British was the first deliberate indiscriminate shelling of a civilian target for military ends. It was wrong then and it's wrong now. Plus the scale is nowhere in comparison. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Westerly Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 8 hours ago, Mississippi Bullfrog said: The 1807 bombardment of Copenhagen by the British was the first deliberate indiscriminate shelling of a civilian target for military ends. It was wrong then and it's wrong now. Plus the scale is nowhere in comparison. I'm not sure about that. Deliberately making civilians suffer for military ends has been going on since the beginning of recorded history. First rule of siege warfare seemed to be give in now or we'll kill everyone within the walls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mississippi Bullfrog Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 29 minutes ago, S-Westerly said: I'm not sure about that. Deliberately making civilians suffer for military ends has been going on since the beginning of recorded history. First rule of siege warfare seemed to be give in now or we'll kill everyone within the walls. That's true, but it's the deliberate shelling of the city to achieve a military objective, the surrender of their naval forces to prevent them falling into Napoleon's control, that is the point. Centuries of conflict have caused untold suffering out of which we have learnt to create systems of diplomacy and negotiation. Putin is taking us back to a world we assumed had gone. Just as Europe sleepwalked into the first world war we've allowed the same to happen again. Humanity doesn't learn from its history or its mistakes. In Old Testament times they had a saying, the fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge. But of course no-one reads such things these days. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeHorton Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 This is a new website setup my the UA government re aid and support. I've not took a deep enough look to see how exactly it works. I donated to the British Red Cross last pay day. I'll most likely donate to the DEC after the comments by Mississippibullfrog this month. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeHorton Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 Would help if I included the link! Here it is https://help.gov.ua/en Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fozzie Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 12 hours ago, NeilM said: I too support the Ukraine. Its the hypocrisy from the media I have a massive issue with. BTW. Leave Wales alone. Nuke Manchester.... Oi! ...At least give us a 20 minute warning so we can loot the silverware... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marino Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 3 hours ago, S-Westerly said: I'm not sure about that. Deliberately making civilians suffer for military ends has been going on since the beginning of recorded history. First rule of siege warfare seemed to be give in now or we'll kill everyone within the walls. Turks did it, before turks mongols, before them romans and so on……… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted March 23, 2022 Author Share Posted March 23, 2022 12 hours ago, Mississippi Bullfrog said: The 1807 bombardment of Copenhagen by the British was the first deliberate indiscriminate shelling of a civilian target for military ends. It was wrong then and it's wrong now. Plus the scale is nowhere in comparison. Hiroshima, revenge, dresden revenge etc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted March 23, 2022 Author Share Posted March 23, 2022 Relatively quiet on the war front at the mo, Russians stalled or re organising? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Westerly Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 5 minutes ago, Bender said: Relatively quiet on the war front at the mo, Russians stalled or re organising? Probably pulling back so they can use some WMD of their choice without killing too many of their own, not that its bothered them much so far. Really can see why the Ukrainians call them orcs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted March 23, 2022 Author Share Posted March 23, 2022 15 minutes ago, S-Westerly said: Probably pulling back so they can use some WMD of their choice without killing too many of their own, not that its bothered them much so far. Really can see why the Ukrainians call them orcs. Probably cause they were ugly smelly vile creatures that were eventually defeated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marino Posted March 24, 2022 Share Posted March 24, 2022 17 hours ago, S-Westerly said: Probably pulling back so they can use some WMD of their choice without killing too many of their own, not that its bothered them much so far. Really can see why the Ukrainians call them orcs. In the 2ww Russians were changing against Germans with one bullet in each rifle. Who didn’t charge machine guns were behind killing anyone refuse to charge. So that is russian mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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