Triumph Tiger 900 Steamer - won't start

[macjaffa]

Hello! 

 

So, for anyone who saw my other post...I got hold of the Tiger...I felt tall enough.  Just!  

But, it won't start -which I knew. 

 

It has been sitting for about 6 months, I think (it had old E5 fuel in it).

It was running fine before it sat for a while.  The previous owner changed the oil, spark plugs and oil filter in the last week, before handing it to me yesterday, but it still does not start.  

I'm getting a little worried that starting issues can cause the sprag clutch to go...so I'm getting anxious.

I have drained the fuel and put fresh fuel in (also drained the old fuel from the carbs).
The spark plugs (or, at least) the lead to them is sparking.
I have put Easy Start down the air intake to try and get it going just a little bit, so that I can then put redex through the running engine...and clean the carbs a little.

But it won't start.  Please see my video links to hear it...it sounds like it's almost there.

 

I can see the carbs...and am prepared to take them off and have a go at cleaning them -if I have to- but I'm a noob and would rather exhaust other options first.  I have seen that draining the tank and running sea foam through into the carb system and letting it sit is a good alternative.   On that...is pure redex a fine alternative to sea foam? 

I've linked to two videos of it trying to start....do you think it needs the carb overhaul or treatment?  Or, the guy who was helping me thought the spark plugs might be the wrong ones and not sparking themselves...I don't have the tool to take them out at the moment. 

 

Any thoughts, please? 

Thanks!

 

Video Clips:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d5AtsKm6NTamC9AYrypLszNbHUcb-1Yy/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GEN4RlVN5ZymJI8U7v_Gpqo2iomQ2c3B/view?usp=sharing

[MikeHorton]

I'm no expert but I know recently on here there was a discussion on seafoam. I think the conclusion was that it's worth a go if your not confident to strip the carbs. If it was only sat for 6 months I'm hoping it's nothing major 

[KiwiBob]

You say the lead to the plugs are sparking .. What about the plugs?

[macjaffa]

1 hour ago, MikeHorton said:

I'm no expert but I know recently on here there was a discussion on seafoam. I think the conclusion was that it's worth a go if your not confident to strip the carbs. If it was only sat for 6 months I'm hoping it's nothing major 

Thanks....that's good to know...it's a good step to take first, then.  I've just ordered some on Amazon.

 

 

23 minutes ago, KiwiBob said:

You say the lead to the plugs are sparking .. What about the plugs?

 

Yeah, I don't have a tool to get into it at the moment...(socket should arrive on Monday) so I thought I could at least see if the plug lead, connector thingymajiggies were carrying a spark, which they all were.  Think it is worth having a peek at them, though. 

[Ian Frog]

Hope you get the tools to look carefully at the plugs etc.

For what its worth Seafoam is quite well thought of however take the can of Easystart and put it completely out of reach !

Carb cleaners and othe things are available and will cause less problems in the future.

Cheers

Ian

[macjaffa]

12 minutes ago, Ian Frog said:

Hope you get the tools to look carefully at the plugs etc.

For what its worth Seafoam is quite well thought of however take the can of Easystart and put it completely out of reach !

Carb cleaners and othe things are available and will cause less problems in the future.

Cheers

Ian

 

Hi Ian, 

Yep, the socket I need is on order for Monday..and the Seafoam is due to arrive then, too.  I think -weather dependent- I'll spend Monday evening draining the fuel tank again, checking spark plugs and getting Seafoam through.   As I understand it...I empty the tank, put half a bottle of sea foam in....attempt to start the bike which should get the seafoam into the carbs...then let it sit.   Is that right?    I'm unsure how to flush out the seafoam after that....I can undo the screw at the bottom of the carbs, or does it just flush out with fuel?  

Good to know about the Easystart...I didn't know it was likely to cause issues in the future.  Darn it! 

 

Thanks!

Edited March 12, 2022 by macjaffa

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

It's a bit late now but there is a better product than Seafoam, though from the same marine background. For cleaning gummed carbs Quicksilver Powertune is very effective and doesn't need to be drained afterwards. 

 

I used to use it on radio control glow engines which had castor oil residue burnt onto them. It was the only thing that dissolved it without also eating into the metal.

 

When you're cranking it over can you smell unburned petrol at the exhaust tailpipes? The video seems to suggest there's no fuel fumes there but hard to tell for sure. 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Mississippi Bullfrog

[macjaffa]

Oh, darn it....Quicksilver Powertune...I've noted that down...thank you.

 

Unburned petrol...no, not from the exhaust.  With some of it's more 'almost' moments, there were some wispy fumes coming out, as though the engine was running, but it was always 'almost'.  There were a couple of gutteral pops out of the exhaust on occasion.  But that's it. 

 

I'm getting a little anxious about the sprag clutch going, with all these starting attempts.  

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

9 minutes ago, macjaffa said:

Oh, darn it....Quicksilver Powertune...I've noted that down...thank you.

 

Unburned petrol...no, not from the exhaust.  With some of it's more 'almost' moments, there were some wispy fumes coming out, as though the engine was running, but it was always 'almost'.  There were a couple of gutteral pops out of the exhaust on occasion.  But that's it. 

 

I'm getting a little anxious about the sprag clutch going, with all these starting attempts.  

If you're not getting unburnt petrol at the tailpipes after cranking then fuel isn't getting into the cylinders. 

[macjaffa]

3 minutes ago, Mississippi Bullfrog said:

If you're not getting unburnt petrol at the tailpipes after cranking then fuel isn't getting into the cylinders. 

 

Ohhhh....erm....that doesn't sound great.  Petcock is set to 'Fuel'....I drained the carburettors from the screw at the bottom (as I thought there still may be old fuel in it)...and then cranked it...and checked afterwards and there was fuel in them again (I assume the new fuel).  But something can be blocked between that and the cylinders?

Another question: (this may be a silly one), but my GS500F has a YUASA YB12L-A2  battery, which is new,...this one has a YUASA YB14L-A2, which is dead...the difference is the 12/14...although I don't know what that refers to.  I've been using the GS one.....that's fine....isn't it?

[Ian Frog]

As you are only using it to check the system and start the engine it shouldn`t matter too much but once you get it going best to run with the correct battery.

while you are at it have you checked the air filter housing to ensure the free flow of air ?

Forgive me if you have already mentioned this but I am only dipping in and out of here lol.

My thought is based on experience of rodents setting up home in an air box in the past.

Cheers

Ian

[macjaffa]

30 minutes ago, Ian Frog said:

As you are only using it to check the system and start the engine it shouldn`t matter too much but once you get it going best to run with the correct battery.

while you are at it have you checked the air filter housing to ensure the free flow of air ?

Forgive me if you have already mentioned this but I am only dipping in and out of here lol.

My thought is based on experience of rodents setting up home in an air box in the past.

Cheers

Ian

 

I appreciate any and all input, thank you!  That's cool...I'll keep using this battery until it fires up...then I have the battery ready to order.  Saves pennies in the moment. 

 

The air filter housing...eeesh...no, is that tough to get to?    The attached pic shows what I think is the airbox...the filter is in there?  It feels like I'd have to dismantle the whole bike to get at it?  Ha, and rodents...really?  Quite unexpected!

 

[Ian Frog]

That looks a pig to get to lol.

If it`s awkward it might be a clue as to a lack of maintenance which may be a clue as to your non starting issues and worth the effort of checking.

Cheers

Ian

[macjaffa]

28 minutes ago, Ian Frog said:

That looks a pig to get to lol.

If it`s awkward it might be a clue as to a lack of maintenance which may be a clue as to your non starting issues and worth the effort of checking.

Cheers

Ian

 

That's a really good point...yeah, I don't think the filter would have been changed...in 6 years.  Although he's done less than 2000 miles on it since 2017's MOT. 

 

Ohhhhh....carbs, airbox, maybe sprag...fun times ahead.  Darn it.

[Ian Frog]

As someone who owned Ducati desmos back in the 80`s I would stay well away from starter sprag clutches unless absolutely necessary.

Horrible little mechanisms prone to spitting small bits all over the place don`t ask me how I know lol.

Cheers

Ian

[skyrider]

7 minutes ago, Ian Frog said:

As someone who owned Ducati desmos back in the 80`s I would stay well away from starter sprag clutches unless absolutely necessary.

Horrible little mechanisms prone to spitting small bits all over the place don`t ask me how I know lol.

Cheers

Ian

a bit like some trail bikes then

[macjaffa]

25 minutes ago, Ian Frog said:

As someone who owned Ducati desmos back in the 80`s I would stay well away from starter sprag clutches unless absolutely necessary.

Horrible little mechanisms prone to spitting small bits all over the place don`t ask me how I know lol.

Cheers

Ian

 

Ha, I'm crossing fingers and toes....and my eyes....and just hoping I don't have to have a crack at it.  

[Bianco2564]

What choke setting do you use?

My R1 in cold weather needs to be fully on but in warmer weather only half choke is needed.

If I don't have it set just right it won't start.

[onesea]

I have year 2000 trophy 1200 same engine extra cylinder.  These engines are great when running, your right to worry about the sprag clutch.  It’s low voltage cranking amps that kills them they say. I change my battery at first hint of slowness starting every 2 years it seems.

Have you got car size battery to use as jump pack?  Or connect to car battery car not running?

Sometimes they just need an extra bit to get them started, a weak battery will not start them. If it’s much below 12v don’t try is my thought. I have old car battery for this event.

If you have tank off check the peticock works attach vacuum hose to valve give it suck check fuel comes out of tank.  Also check fuel comes out when on reserve and on prime without suction.  Turn to prime till she is running, some owners run on prime or reserve all the time, but if you know it’s working there is no need.

 

You could get one of these OR SIMILAR and T piece for both fuel lines to ensure FRESH E5 FUEL.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384347399703?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1wgBevoBwQJKG2DN1nQoqFw60&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=384347399703&targetid=1596500856709&device=t&mktype=&googleloc=1006900&poi=&campaignid=15278604175&mkgroupid=135429446288&rlsatarget=pla-1596500856709&abcId=9300698&merchantid=431275009&gbraid=0AAAAAD_Lr1cHMKe7Lgi5lVCrheTqvJVDi&gclid=Cj0KCQiAybaRBhDtARIsAIEG3kncUFjIQTSKPw3TbIm9BAJ-Zy3E457vMB3HGb-ots3z7axCT0xtepEaAnAvEALw_wcB

there is fuel filter in the tank on the other side of peticock valve, but if your getting fuel at the bowl drain I would not worry.

 

They are also prone to weak sparks so if you can see a spark that is good, wd-40 can help in this area.  Coils are also prone to failure.

Check fuel lines, the trophy has small fuel filters in the lines.
However if you get fuel from drain valve it’s probably OK

 

My trophy (and I think most of these engines)  HATE starting with any EXTRA revs. Turn the idol control down.

Turn the fuel to prime and WAIT a minute or so (with experience it can be less).

 I push the start button and close choke until it fires up bring revs up on idol control then open choke fully.

Put petiock valve to on, the middle setting.

 Let her warm up and as revs go up reduce them to 900rpm.
If she doesn’t start I try again with no choke gradually easing it on.
After that she starts on the button all day it’s just that cold morning start that can be challenging.

The choke cable should be slack when choke is open.

Having just changed my air filter (after 6 years and 25k miles) yes that is the air box, it’s carbs off to change it (on a trophy). A dirty air filter will also make it a swine to start, I had similar symptoms but could get it to start.  If you can get her to start it might just be damp reducing air flow, it seems they don’t like to start on a rich mix.

 

If you take the carbs off, Watch the rubber cones they are prone to cracking and on trophy’s have slight angle in make sure you put them in the right way round and orientation.

 

If she is together ready for starting try above start up procedure on battery pack or jump leads from good battery.  If she starts I would keep her running for 10minutes on low revs before stopping. 

 

A Haynes manual is a god send.

PS I generally run mine on E10 with the odd shot of quick silver fuel adative.

Edited March 13, 2022 by onesea

[macjaffa]

22 hours ago, onesea said:

I have year 2000 trophy 1200 same engine extra cylinder.  These engines are great when running, your right to worry about the sprag clutch.  It’s low voltage cranking amps that kills them they say. I change my battery at first hint of slowness starting every 2 years it seems.

Have you got car size battery to use as jump pack?  Or connect to car battery car not running?

Sometimes they just need an extra bit to get them started, a weak battery will not start them. If it’s much below 12v don’t try is my thought. I have old car battery for this event.

If you have tank off check the peticock works attach vacuum hose to valve give it suck check fuel comes out of tank.  Also check fuel comes out when on reserve and on prime without suction.  Turn to prime till she is running, some owners run on prime or reserve all the time, but if you know it’s working there is no need.

 

You could get one of these OR SIMILAR and T piece for both fuel lines to ensure FRESH E5 FUEL.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384347399703?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1wgBevoBwQJKG2DN1nQoqFw60&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=384347399703&targetid=1596500856709&device=t&mktype=&googleloc=1006900&poi=&campaignid=15278604175&mkgroupid=135429446288&rlsatarget=pla-1596500856709&abcId=9300698&merchantid=431275009&gbraid=0AAAAAD_Lr1cHMKe7Lgi5lVCrheTqvJVDi&gclid=Cj0KCQiAybaRBhDtARIsAIEG3kncUFjIQTSKPw3TbIm9BAJ-Zy3E457vMB3HGb-ots3z7axCT0xtepEaAnAvEALw_wcB

there is fuel filter in the tank on the other side of peticock valve, but if your getting fuel at the bowl drain I would not worry.

 

They are also prone to weak sparks so if you can see a spark that is good, wd-40 can help in this area.  Coils are also prone to failure.

Check fuel lines, the trophy has small fuel filters in the lines.
However if you get fuel from drain valve it’s probably OK

 

My trophy (and I think most of these engines)  HATE starting with any EXTRA revs. Turn the idol control down.

Turn the fuel to prime and WAIT a minute or so (with experience it can be less).

 I push the start button and close choke until it fires up bring revs up on idol control then open choke fully.

Put petiock valve to on, the middle setting.

 Let her warm up and as revs go up reduce them to 900rpm.
If she doesn’t start I try again with no choke gradually easing it on.
After that she starts on the button all day it’s just that cold morning start that can be challenging.

The choke cable should be slack when choke is open.

Having just changed my air filter (after 6 years and 25k miles) yes that is the air box, it’s carbs off to change it (on a trophy). A dirty air filter will also make it a swine to start, I had similar symptoms but could get it to start.  If you can get her to start it might just be damp reducing air flow, it seems they don’t like to start on a rich mix.

 

If you take the carbs off, Watch the rubber cones they are prone to cracking and on trophy’s have slight angle in make sure you put them in the right way round and orientation.

 

If she is together ready for starting try above start up procedure on battery pack or jump leads from good battery.  If she starts I would keep her running for 10minutes on low revs before stopping. 

 

A Haynes manual is a god send.

PS I generally run mine on E10 with the odd shot of quick silver fuel adative.

 

Thank you so much for the reply -and the time put into it!  There is so much here and I will use it as a great checklist as I get back to work on it.  Thank you.  

 

In the video we were jumping it from a car battery...and before that I was using my fully charged other bike battery.  I would hope those both would have had the power.  I'll keep the battery on a trickle charge to ensure it's topped up, before I try to use it again...at least take it out of the equation, as much as possible. 

 

I had someone mention that if they don't have more than a quarter of a tank of petrol, then their Tiger doesn't start.  I've got six litres in there now, which is bang on a quarter...so I guess I should put more in...to take that out of the equation.  Mounts up on the pennies! ha 

 

But, again, thank you for the help.

[macjaffa]

On 13/03/2022 at 21:03, Bianco2564 said:

What choke setting do you use?

My R1 in cold weather needs to be fully on but in warmer weather only half choke is needed.

If I don't have it set just right it won't start.

 

Hi....tried it on all settings, really, (off, mid and high).  Just desperately knocking it to all, really.  It sometimes almost fired up...it seemed so close.  

[onesea]

17 minutes ago, macjaffa said:

 

Thank you so much for the reply -and the time put into it!  There is so much here and I will use it as a great checklist as I get back to work on it.  Thank you.  

 

In the video we were jumping it from a car battery...and before that I was using my fully charged other bike battery.  I would hope those both would have had the power.  I'll keep the battery on a trickle charge to ensure it's topped up, before I try to use it again...at least take it out of the equation, as much as possible. 

 

I had someone mention that if they don't have more than a quarter of a tank of petrol, then their Tiger doesn't start.  I've got six litres in there now, which is bang on a quarter...so I guess I should put more in...to take that out of the equation.  Mounts up on the pennies! ha 

 

But, again, thank you for the help.

If it's same as trophy reason for 1/4 tank is the frame goes through the middle of the tank.

Tilting it towards the peti-cock side before starting the lump in the middle of the tank will hold fuel that side of the tank.

 

To many roundabouts and no left hand bends you can have 1/4 tank on the guage and no fuel suction side of the tank.

 

If you haven't already try my start up and let me know how you get on ..

[macjaffa]

20 hours ago, onesea said:

If it's same as trophy reason for 1/4 tank is the frame goes through the middle of the tank.

Tilting it towards the peti-cock side before starting the lump in the middle of the tank will hold fuel that side of the tank.

 

To many roundabouts and no left hand bends you can have 1/4 tank on the guage and no fuel suction side of the tank.

 

If you haven't already try my start up and let me know how you get on ..

 

Wow, thank you!  That's awesome to know!  I'm suddenly wondering if I needed to put more fuel in it...can you imagine if that was the bloody problem?!! 

 

And yep...I'm needing to get back from work before it's dark and I'm looking forward to trying those things....I'd really love to hear this bike come to life. :). I'll definitely let you know how it goes!

 

 

[macjaffa]

On 14/03/2022 at 22:59, onesea said:

 

 

If you haven't already try my start up and let me know how you get on ..

 

Hey, it started.  I must admit I forgot myself and indulged in a few excited revs, rather quickly, but it idled happily for 20 minutes.  Didn't start again after that, but I think I've lost the sprag clutch.  Would it even start with the sprag clutch gone, though?

 

Now it has at least started, I assume it's worth a little more effort.  I'll grab a Haynes manual and hopefully a sprag clutch...I guess I have to look into that now.  I can take the case off the engine on the bike's right hand side, so I'm assuming I'm one of the lucky ones who don't have to remove and split the engine.  

 

There is a 1996 sprag clutch available online...is this fine for a 1995 Steamer?

 

 

[onesea]

1 hour ago, macjaffa said:

 

Hey, it started.  I must admit I forgot myself and indulged in a few excited revs, rather quickly, but it idled happily for 20 minutes.  Didn't start again after that, but I think I've lost the sprag clutch.  Would it even start with the sprag clutch gone, though?

 

Now it has at least started, I assume it's worth a little more effort.  I'll grab a Haynes manual and hopefully a sprag clutch...I guess I have to look into that now.  I can take the case off the engine on the bike's right hand side, so I'm assuming I'm one of the lucky ones who don't have to remove and split the engine.  

 

There is a 1996 sprag clutch available online...is this fine for a 1995 Steamer?

 

 

 Am no expert if your on FB look for the triumph T300 group…. However if she is turning over it’s probably not the Sprag clutch.

Did she start again after she’s been left to go cold?  There are other issues with these engines if they have been left sitting.

If she does it might be the crank position sensor pick up. Or even the coils if I recall they work worse, when warm and they are on top of the engine…

 

these guys are good for parts…

 

https://www.triumphparts.co.uk/product-category/triumph-parts/

 

The other thing is 20 minutes idle is long time for any bike.. Mine certainly doesn’t like getting warm.. She stalls very easily.  I assume she’s got coolant and had no steam coming out the oil level is still good and there where no nasties coming out of the exhaust…