Do Electric motorcycles suit petrol heads

[treborrolyat]

Is it me or do electric motorcycles not hit the spot to stand and admire an electric motorcycle  no no no it's not just about the ride at speed how many motorcyclists  out the like to tinker,add accessories, rev it up feel the bike admire it be at one with it hear that exhaust note I don't think that is possible with a glorified hoover unless it is altered to use an electronic noise to rev and travel, and to give more involvement with the bike why can't it have a clutch an engine noise , a decent exhaust note surely these things can be done electronically at least it may be a move in the right direction that's how I feel how about you petrol heads out there       .a disappointed biker

[treborrolyat]

Just now, treborrolyat said:

Is it me or do electric motorcycles not hit the spot to stand and admire an electric motorcycle  no no no it's not just about the ride at speed how many motorcyclists  out the like to tinker,add accessories, rev it up feel the bike admire it be at one with it hear that exhaust note I don't think that is possible with a glorified hoover unless it is altered to use an electronic noise to rev and travel, and to give more involvement with the bike why can't it have a clutch an engine noise , a decent exhaust note surely these things can be done electronically at least it may be a move in the right direction that's how I feel how about you petrol heads out there       .a disappointed biker or should I  say a born again cruiser

 

[KiwiBob]

It's you!  

 

If they had the range and you could fill up in a couple of minutes and if they didn't cost the earth, I would have one!

[JRH]

@treborrolyat a clutch on an electric vehicle kind of defeats the object. Max torque at zero revs, so twist the throttle and off we go. Putting a clutch in increases  the complexity and reduces the reliability. Noise makers to simulate engine noise are available and I think are required in some markets. And I’m with Kiwibob make them affordable, increase the range and reduce charge time and it becomes a viable product.

[manxie49]

Totally agree with what's already been said .... As an example, the Vector, British built electric sports bike.  As has been said, not enough range, too long to charge, and a price tag starting at 90k .... I mean come on, FFS, how many mere mortals can afford something like that, which would be nothing more than a toy.

[S-Westerly]

Personally I'd not want to swap an ICE motorbike for an electric one. No soul and I don't even like spannering.

In practical terms, as it stands they are a waste of time - ridiculously expensive, stupidly short range (100 real world miles? ffs) and excessively long charge times. What's to like? 

[Fiddlesticks]

A solution in search of a problem.

[veracocha]

I'm a returning biker and it looks like I'm coming back just in time to see my remaining biking years on combustion mounts. Had it bee a few years later with EV being the only option I wouldn't have done it and certainly not with the infrastructure & out of touch pricing that goes with it. At the bike show yesterday all I can say is there wasn't a single electric bike that held my interest. I appreciate the technology but as a substitute for what we have.....not for me.

[Bianco2564]

My monthly commuting costs on the Silverwing are around £150 , fuel and tax. That's just over 900 miles a month.

If I could lease an EV bike for that or less,that had enough range and performance, I'd go for it.

However there isn't so I'm sticking with the scooter.

[Gerontious]

Still early days.. but, as with anything new. once the popularity (or necessity) increases so will the technology improve.. after all, I can clearly remember the phrase "it'll ever catch on' - when these first appeared. forgive the self portrait, it was after a heavy night.. 

 

Im also fairly certain that the manufacturers, especially the big 4 will not rest on their laurels and will produce machines that people actually want to buy. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Gerontious

[onesea]

3 hours ago, KiwiBob said:

It's you!  

 

If they had the range and you could fill up in a couple of minutes and if they didn't cost the earth, I would have one!

With you there I would happily have one that has say 140 mile range and 20 minutes charge time.

 

Oh and cost effective, I looked into it a couple of years ago for going to work.  Even pedal assist (no tax no insurance) its only 2 miles.  It was cheaper to keep a motorbike for 5 years than to buy a decent electric bike.  People at work have tried but non stick with it.

 

Really not fussed about the noise.

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

A motorcycle should growl rather than whine.

[Breezin]

I've got a 15-mile urban commute,  and it's as quick, and cheaper, on an e-bike. Saves the moto for proper riding miles.

[S-Westerly]

Well as I don't have a commute that's not an issue for me. 

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

5 hours ago, S-Westerly said:

Well as I don't have a commute that's not an issue for me. 

You do commute...all over the world. You just do it by boat. 

[MikeHorton]

Question is do petrol bikes suit electric heads? 

[S-Westerly]

On 21/11/2022 at 16:44, Mississippi Bullfrog said:

You do commute...all over the world. You just do it by boat. 

Please not boat! I'm not a submarine! Ship if you'd be so kind.

[onesea]

On 21/11/2022 at 10:25, Breezin said:

I've got a 15-mile urban commute,  and it's as quick, and cheaper, on an e-bike. Saves the moto for proper riding miles.

Just switched to a 125cc

bike £500 Honda CBR 125

insurance £60 tax £22

Cheaper than E-bike no batteries in the house for charging.

Yes there’s Petrol but for me it’s quicker and just better.  Then I am on rural roads that I would not choose to cycle at all times of day and night.

 

[Fozzie]

As they are, no. Battery powered bikes are a bad move.

 

They are heavy, have poor power density, and take ages to charge. 

 

However, people comparing them in the wrong way. You need to look at them in terms of their evolution. If I was to compare an EV bike to a petrol bike from the 1920's for example, I'd probably have the EV. As while I like tinkering with my bikes... I don't like it enough for the amount of regular maintenance I'd have to be doing. 

 

Battery tech is moving quickly, and lithium will be useful as cheap batteries in the future. But there's development of batteries at the moment that will send things to the next level, a new lithium glass battery looks to have 6 times the power density. So we could triple the range of existing EV bikes and halve the weight at the same time.

Larger transport may even turn to nuclear batteries, which sound dangerous, but it emits alpha particles which don't interact with us. When that stuff arrives, and we can tweak inverter and motor tech to produce sounds reminiscent of something from Star Trek, I'll be game. 

[MikeHorton]

4 minutes ago, Fozzie said:

As they are, no. Battery powered bikes are a bad move.

 

They are heavy, have poor power density, and take ages to charge. 

 

However, people comparing them in the wrong way. You need to look at them in terms of their evolution. If I was to compare an EV bike to a petrol bike from the 1920's for example, I'd probably have the EV. As while I like tinkering with my bikes... I don't like it enough for the amount of regular maintenance I'd have to be doing. 

 

Battery tech is moving quickly, and lithium will be useful as cheap batteries in the future. But there's development of batteries at the moment that will send things to the next level, a new lithium glass battery looks to have 6 times the power density. So we could triple the range of existing EV bikes and halve the weight at the same time.

Larger transport may even turn to nuclear batteries, which sound dangerous, but it emits alpha particles which don't interact with us. When that stuff arrives, and we can tweak inverter and motor tech to produce sounds reminiscent of something from Star Trek, I'll be game. 

Yes the tech will get there soon. We have gone to one car an ev is too expensive and not enough range. We opted for a yaris hybrid and I have to say its brilliant and avg 80mpg quite happy with Toyota build quality they have done hybrids for a long time now. If I worked oser to home I would consider something like a super soco for the commute 

[Fiddlesticks]

I'm not sure the tech will get there. It's up against basic physics.  You've two problems: range and charge time.

To increase range you'd need to squeeze proportionally more potential energy into the same size box. The laws of thermodynamics would suggest that twice the potential energy leads to half the stability.

Supposing all safety issues could be overcome (without crippling the bike with extra weight),  it would lead to double the charge time.  Of course,  you could solve that with faster chargers,  but a doubling of charge would require a doubling of the cable thickness.  But that only gets you back to where you were before the battery capacity increased. Realistically,  you ain't going to get infrastructure that can deliver high enough capacity at quick enough speeds to make it useful in anything other than little city commuters.

 

Battery swap stations might have been a solution,  but it seems that nobody was interested in the idea.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Fiddlesticks

[MikeHorton]

Maybe not in its current format but there are other technologies like graphene etc I don't think whatever format it is it will be like a car as you say batteries need to be bigger. I'm with you there on the swappable batteries but I can't see manufacturers liking that they like to make everything throw away or only purchased through them. If you could only run your car off a brand specific fuel I'm sure they would love that too. 

[Fozzie]

3 hours ago, Fiddlesticks said:

I'm not sure the tech will get there. It's up against basic physics.  You've two problems: range and charge time.

To increase range you'd need to squeeze proportionally more potential energy into the same size box. The laws of thermodynamics would suggest that twice the potential energy leads to half the stability.

Supposing all safety issues could be overcome (without crippling the bike with extra weight),  it would lead to double the charge time.  Of course,  you could solve that with faster chargers,  but a doubling of charge would require a doubling of the cable thickness.  But that only gets you back to where you were before the battery capacity increased. Realistically,  you ain't going to get infrastructure that can deliver high enough capacity at quick enough speeds to make it useful in anything other than little city commuters.

 

Battery swap stations might have been a solution,  but it seems that nobody was interested in the idea.

 

A lot of the issue around size as it stands is due to things like the electrolyte and the materials, which are limiting energy density and increasing overall size. Petrol currently sits at around 100 times the power density of a lithium-ion battery pound for pound, so we are a long way off having dangerous power densities. The nuclear diamond battery will be the thing to change that I suspect, if it can be commercialised. 

 

I reckon that chargers in their current form are not going to be around for long. The biggest are up to 350kW, but I believe it's at 400V, which is low voltage. I suspect future tech will see the voltage go up, to keep current and cable size the same. It will just become more important in how they are insulated, and the batteries will likely need safety interlocks to cut the voltage down by varying how many are in series. 

 

Aluminium air batteries were a good option for replaceable batteries. Fully recyclable, light, and one roughly the size of your average lead acid battery would have seen a regular saloon travel 3-400 miles. The counter arguments I heard were basically the CO2 impact of recycling them, the very likely high rate of theft, and needing someone to do the swap and need training for the various vehicles out on the road (*no one* standardises, at least at first)

[Breezin]

On 22/11/2022 at 19:27, onesea said:

Just switched to a 125cc

bike £500 Honda CBR 125

insurance £60 tax £22

Cheaper than E-bike no batteries in the house for charging.

Yes there’s Petrol but for me it’s quicker and just better.  Then I am on rural roads that I would not choose to cycle at all times of day and night.

 

Don't get me wrong... I much prefer the petrol option if it's just down to pure ride. But the ebike is cheaper long term: zero tax and insurance.  And, God forbid, you get a bit of exercise.

+ commuting miles are the hardest miles when it comes to engine, chain wear, corrosion. 

For the Interceptor,  I'm gonna keep it country!

[Banshee]

On 23/11/2022 at 22:32, Breezin said:

Don't get me wrong... I much prefer the petrol option if it's just down to pure ride. But the ebike is cheaper long term: zero tax and insurance.  And, God forbid, you get a bit of exercise.

+ commuting miles are the hardest miles when it comes to engine, chain wear, corrosion. 

For the Interceptor,  I'm gonna keep it country!

Once the sales increase, these will change. Road tax will definitely be re-introduced, they wouldn't want to lose out on revenue in the long term,