So how would you fix the licensing system?

[Fiddlesticks]

I posted this in another thread. It got me thinking how the current system is a bit mad.

 

Imagine being 16. Wanting to ride. You'd get your CBT and pick up a 50cc scooter. Not happy with the L plates, you could take a theory, MOD1 and MOD2 to get your AM license.

You get to 17 and want to upgrade. Another MOD1 and MOD2 - now you have an A1 and can ride ac125cc.

At 19, do it all over again for an A2 licence.

And again at 21 for the full A.

I make that ten separate tests!

 

OK, in reality you'd skip the AM license, but you get the point. You have delivery drivers on L plates, people doing multiple tests, people doing repeat CBTs.

 

How to strike the right balance between protecting people from their own stupidity, getting rid of unnecessary red tape, and good road safety? You're King for the day, what would you do?

[dynax]

Quite simple, if a training school are competent enough to get people through a CBT, then why not allow them (with more training) to do the MOD 1 & 2 for AM  and A1, and leave the A2 and A to the DVLA, with the A2 being automatically upgraded after 2 years.

 

 

Also the A1 should be increased to 250cc.

Edited February 22 by dynax

[geofferz]

Same as as car - 1 full licence when you're 17 to ride anything. Why not. 

[Fiddlesticks]

Just now, geofferz said:

Same as as car - 1 full licence when you're 17 to ride anything. Why not. 

Old school

[Gerontious]

I would bring it into line with the European standard. With extras.

 

AM requires a 7 hour training course (CBT) and the bike bears a different colour licence plate.

 

A1, A2 and A requires CBT plus lessons and 2 part test.

 

L plates to be abolished except when having lessons and worn as a tabard.

 

No more riding “forever” on L plates with only a CBT

 

2 year ban and then back to square one on achieving 12 points.

 

vehicles to be immediately seized and crushed or sold, if any of the above are ignored.

all bike thieves to be tagged and subject to a 12 hour curfew. Regardless of further litigation. Same for anyone caught riding following a ban.

[husoi]

Sweden had (not sure nowadays) highway code at primary school and all the way to secondary.

By the time kids were old enough to have a license they will be experts on all the rules and culture on the road.

 

Advanced driving should be the norm and not the exception to the whole of UK.

They are likely on of the safest drivers/riders in Europe.

Then getting the license would be much easier.

[dynax]

The major problem is the gov't, they do not want bikes on the road.

 

Honda have released a range of 400cc bikes for the asian market, not a sniff of them being available here in the UK.

[RideWithStyles]

gero just decided to do the opposite of the question and just made it even more ridiculous, because like some OP politician view of "its not my problem because i'm already old and got my license thanks /screw those lot" 

 

dynax is correct.

 

agree but its most of the time it's the slowing decline of the person's attitude of the std "of well i already have it now and don't have to do it again, so FO i do as i please".

Now for the majority regular re test is unnecessary and to be honest the system couldn't handle that level of foolery.

 

two ways:

some grades of the license there isn't enough of a jump until it's fully unrestricted....cos look what you have to pass your test on for DAS- then you can suddenly ride a 250bhp beast?? that's not sensible for the normal person.

 

if you already have a full license grade of the same vehicle type( A1) you could sit on that for say two/three years but instead of doing tests again you can upgrade naturally to the next one but you can't skip the next one automatically...so if you did 125 full license....sit for X years -and automatically can ride to the A1 bike, but you have to take the test to the full unrestricted license A-end of.

 

another - why bother with the mod 1.... just do a proper throughly designed mod 2.

 

well with all the foookkery of messing with bikes why not the same with cars? i think they should be tested and licensed the same so it would go like this:

16-18yr or my first license you have to have first so not skipping no matter what age you are would be B5 for city/small cars with an engine output of up to 40-65bhp for two or so years.

then B4 for 19-21yr slightly bigger cars of output of 85-100bhp. 

B3 for 22-25 of 101-130.

b2 for 131-170 cos cars really dont need more.

 

[KiwiBob]

Allow learners to be supervised by anyone with a full licence like learners in cars! .. 

 

 

[exportmanuk]

All learners  irrespective of the mode should have passed the highway code test before being allowed on the road.  Road safety should be taught in Schools ( Its clear many parents are incapable of understanding it so it needs to be part of the curriculum)  Maybe a requirement to undertake a HWC and eye test compulsory before license renewal.

[Gerontious]

17 minutes ago, RideWithStyles said:

gero just decided to do the opposite of the question and just made it even more ridiculous, because like some OP politician view of "its not my problem because i'm already old and got my license thanks /screw those lot" 

 

 

 

 

Wrong. I know you sometimes have difficulty with comprehension, so as Im a forgiving soul. patient to a fault. I'll make it simple.

my answer is about fixing the licensing system going forward. unless you want to be rather draconian and make these changes retroactive.

 

10 separate tests. this is the ridiculous state of affairs being at the heart of the question.

 

maybe I should spell it out. I used the word TEST. singular, not  TESTS as in plural. (plural being more that ONE.)

 

There would be one test to achieve the right to ride a bike above 50cc. (moped)

 

maybe I should add a clarification.. make it simple for you to understand.

 

I would remove the requirement for anyone to take more than 1 full test.

 

so.

 

a test to ride an A1 bike

a test to ride an A2 bike.

a test to ride an A bike.

 

I do not see why someone who has passed a full test and then ridden a 125 for however long would need to take another test to ride on an A2

Nor do I see why someone who has been riding an A2 bike need to take another test to ride an A.

 

obviously you would need to legislate a minimum amount of time for each license.  but then movement upwards should be automatic if desired by the rider.

 

The only fly in this scenario is if they were to ever bring in motorway riding as part of the test or intrinsic to training.  then something would need to change regarding 125cc bikes. (in my opinion)

 

3 hours ago, Fiddlesticks said:

I posted this in another thread. It got me thinking how the current system is a bit mad.

 

Imagine being 16. Wanting to ride. You'd get your CBT and pick up a 50cc scooter. Not happy with the L plates, you could take a theory, MOD1 and MOD2 to get your AM license.

You get to 17 and want to upgrade. Another MOD1 and MOD2 - now you have an A1 and can ride ac125cc.

At 19, do it all over again for an A2 licence.

And again at 21 for the full A.

I make that ten separate tests!

 

OK, in reality you'd skip the AM license, but you get the point. You have delivery drivers on L plates, people doing multiple tests, people doing repeat CBTs.

 

How to strike the right balance between protecting people from their own stupidity, getting rid of unnecessary red tape, and good road safety? You're King for the day, what would you do?

 

I also addressed the question about "delivery drivers on L plates - people doing repeat CBTs"

 

Get rid of L plates, by following the European model. simple as that. delivery riders get a full license for the size of bike they are riding as part of their work.

 

ONE FULL TEST. and then progress based on age and experience. upwards through the engine size. engine power whatever way its regulated.

 

I did one full test. and I was prevented from doing it in the way I wanted to by my Dad. I wasn't allowed to have a motorbike until I was an Adult. 18yo. and only if I saved and bought it entirely myself. Then, soon after the clock started to tick. I was staring into an abyss where actually riding my bike would become illegal overnight. I had slightly less than 2 years to pass my test. on that bike.  So, in my life I just did one test. And my proposal is for everyone else to do just one test. so Im unsure how that squares with your rather insulting line "because i'm already old and got my license thanks /screw those lot"

 

comprehension eh..  and there was me thinking my first post was simple to understand.

 

[dynax]

Currently following the changes made in 2021, if the A1 was raised to 250cc, then subsequently a bike could legally be ridden to the test centre ( assuming the bike is 245cc or greater but not more than 250cc) for an A2 MOD 1 & 2 test. Auto upgrade to full A after 2 years.

 

Found this flowchart: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62137c89d3bf7f4f05879a1e/how-to-get-a-motorcycle-licence.pdf

 

[geofferz]

4 hours ago, Fiddlesticks said:

Old school

Bikes are less dangerous to other people than cars. You get pass at 17 and get into an ev suv that weighs 3000kg and does 0-60 in 3 seconds which is something government building facilities managers are genuinely scared of. A bike won't hurt anyone anywhere near as much. Sure, maybe more accidents in general (source needed), but they take themselves out of the pool. 

[Fiddlesticks]

It doesn't make much sense to me that you can ride unsupervised on Learner Plates. What are you learning? And who from? What value is the L plate adding? Are you safe to be on the road or not? Nobody is going to care about the L's, or treat you any differently.

 

I can see the point of a separate MOD1, MOD2 and theory test. One single test combining them all would be either long and expensive or necessarily miss out some of the use you get from each part. Today, if you fail either part, you can simply retake just that one before continuing to the next.

 

I do like the idea of progressing up the categories without retaking the MOD1 and MOD2. It does sort of leave it open to the scenario whereby you could pass your test at 16 for a moped (or 17 for a 125), not bother riding for six years, then go buy a Hayabusa having had no training in between. The issue is flying hours/experience, not the passage of time. Maybe if that could be suitably demonstrated without it turning into another big bureaucracy...

 

4 hours ago, geofferz said:

Bikes are less dangerous to other people than cars. You get pass at 17 and get into an ev suv that weighs 3000kg and does 0-60 in 3 seconds which is something government building facilities managers are genuinely scared of. A bike won't hurt anyone anywhere near as much. Sure, maybe more accidents in general (source needed), but they take themselves out of the pool. 

Ye, but that's someone's 17 year old kid, at the end of the day. (And if you want to be selfish, your increased insurance premium). If I was the kid in question I'd be all for it. Every libertarian bone in my body says "go for it, the government's job is to protect the nation from foreign aggression, not our own stupidity", but if I was King for the day I just couldn't do it.  My failing, perhaps.

 

All good thoughts though. Especially learning the Highway Code in school.

Edited February 23 by Fiddlesticks

[Gerontious]

2 hours ago, Fiddlesticks said:

I do like the idea of progressing up the categories without retaking the MOD1 and MOD2. It does sort of leave it open to the scenario whereby you could pass your test at 16 for a moped (or 17 for a 125), not bother riding for six years, then go buy a Hayabusa having had no training in between. The issue is flying hours/experience, not the passage of time. Maybe if that could be suitably demonstrated without it turning into another big bureaucracy...

 

 

There are always details that would need to be thought through. but as you hinted at with your opening question the problem seems to be the complete lack of joined up thinking. but thats always been the case, you might remember that time in the 1990s when a provisional license only lasted 2 years and then lapsed for a year. what was gained by that?

 

The insurers have your history. So does DVLA and VOSA. (now DVSA)  should be quite simple to target the outliers. if you haven't ridden for 6 years then its unlikely you will have been paying for insurance all that time. or tax. or the MOT. or bought and sold/traded and bought again. its all on computer. every detail. (or lack of)

 

people who play by the rules would have just one test. for either a learner. a restricted or a full.

 

people who for whatever reason fall outside of that standard learning path. have them evaluated... it could be something as simple as an  evaluation by an external agency. like RoSPA. or at worst a minimum number of lessons ending with a test "light".

 

dont we normally advise riders who haven't been on a bike for a long time to get some refresh lessons?

 

and dont get me started on the delivery riders.  mmm.. bring back the 1990s

[bonio]

Id have thought there's mileage in allowing people to upgrade a1 to a2 to a by waiting a couple of years and then doing something like a cbt in on the bigger bike. 

[RideWithStyles]

7 hours ago, Fiddlesticks said:

It doesn't make much sense to me that you can ride unsupervised on Learner Plates. What are you learning? And who from? What value is the L plate adding? Are you safe to be on the road or not? Nobody is going to care about the L's, or treat you any differently.

 

I can see the point of a separate MOD1, MOD2 and theory test. One single test combining them all would be either long and expensive or necessarily miss out some of the use you get from each part. Today, if you fail either part, you can simply retake just that one before continuing to the next.

 

 

practice to learning like at school, humans by nature learn best by repetition.

 

that's what the cbt is about... safe to be on the road if you carry on the way you were taught but need to finesse it.

 

my wife and i will contest to that! they/nearly everyone treats L plates differently (car and bike), now don't get me wrong some are quite good and patient but far too many with little regard for the L plate user and only their own selfishness.

even to this day when i ride her bike which unfortunately still has L plates still on , "its only a learner im not wasting my time and fook um".

they wonder "WFT" while being passed by a learner they just tried to have an accident with to beat 2seconds or not bother looking.

i stare at them during my whole overtaking manoeuvre thinking nob head if it minor, ov more if it's its questionable.(which can be long time on a 125 to soak it in)

 

so building many sites to just make a tarmac tennis court wasnt expensive??? 

 

our experience is mostly down to the attitude of the learner especially when away from authority eyes...

[NetherScot]

I would get rid of the ageism. Inexperience can be lethal at any age. Add theory tests to CBT and limit riders to 15 kW for 2 years but then test them properly if they kept the license clean. Pass and go to 33 kW, keep that clean and get unrestricted by default. Oh and if there's an infringement for which you'd lose the license you would start at the beginning of the same loop. But I'd make sure can driving licenses follow similar rules. It's insane that the cost of can insurance is the major hurdle to inexperienced drivers being in charge of very heavy, very powerful machines. 

[curlylegend]

How about going to one of the more lenient States in the USA and getting a full license there.  Probably quicker and unlikely to be any more expensive that getting a full license in the UK. 

Could you ride in the UK with an American License ? 

[S-Westerly]

My understanding is that if you are an American citizen you can use an American drivers licence but whether its permanent or not I don't know. I do know that a Brit who obtained an American licence and tried to use it in the UK didn't get far unless you were resident in the USA and just visiting. A friend tried it and got fined quite a lot back in the 80's.  May have changed now though.

[NetherScot]

@curlylegend In the UK you can only drive with a non-EU license for up to 12 months and you'd then have to pass theory and practical tests. It'd be a waste of money.

 

As I understand it, a learner could pass theory and do a Compulsory Basic Training course on a large motorcycle on the Isle of Man or Guernsey to then be able to ride class A, A2 and A1 bikes on an L plate ahead of a practical test. I don't live there though, so I could have it wrong.

 

Licenses from such territories and EEA/EU could be transformed into UK licenses. From anywhere else, they cannot. Most EU countries also require proof of residence. 

Edited April 7 by NetherScot

[NetherScot]

The more I look into it for the Isle of Man, the more I wished I lived there. It seems like there is one CBT to do, then strap L plates to whatever bike (Manx registered) and do a test. Even if you're 17 you could get a full license that way it seems. Not sure if they allow motorcycle license tourism or if it's residents only but I might just pop on a ferry this Summer..

[S-Westerly]

Pretty sure it's residents only as otherwise half the bikers in the country would have Manx licences. A friend of mine from years ago whose parents actually lived in the IoM had a Manx licence and a UK one ( in the era of ride around the block tests) and when he was acquiring an unhealthy number of points on one switched to the other. Eventually he got caught of course but it was fun while it lasted.