Improving Driver Standards

[Capt Sisko]

Following on from Geordie Oldie's post on driving standards and the general concensous is that yes, they have declined, what is the hives mind on improving them?

 

As I look at it the driving test is just a test to see if you're up to the minimum standard that is required. Do folk feel that is actually a good enough standard to start with given that so many learners are taught to pass their test rather than learn to drive. The real learning comes from the real world later. I know newly qualified drivers have the 6point limit, but they have to be caught first, so would something like compulsory follow up lessons or maybe a second test to a higher standard to be taken within say two years be beneficial?

 

What about having to take a refresher course every ten years(?), again to the higher standard, maybe weighted at either end so younger and older drivers are assessed more often. Another option could be to introduce an offence of 'failing to meet the minimum driving standard'. In other words, if you'd done whatever you'd just done but it was on your driving test, you'd have failed. There's no fine or points (or maybe just one point to record repeat offenders), but you have to take a one hour lesson with an instructor.

 

Would the above privately frighten the living daylights out of some that think they know it all or would it improve driving standards and ultimately save lives.

 

NOTE: I think this is all hypothetical as it'd take a brave Government to implement such changes. You can imaging the headline on the Daily HateMail already 'Government Declares War on the Honest & Hard Working Motorist'

 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2024 by Capt Sisko

[husoi]

Follow the Swedish example.

Driving standards are part of primary and secondary school curriculum.

By the time they are old enough to get a licence they already know the rules and have been "bombarded" with the correct way of driving and how to be responsible and respectful with other drivers.

 

If the test are properly done people won't need a refresher.

Yes physically capable should be a qualifying factor to have a license.

 

Keep in mind that by making it more effective you're taking business from driving instructors, car dealers and you will remove the excuses insurance thieves have to extortionate premiums.

[manxie49]

Instead of the stick approach, use the carrot. Put incentives in place to encourage riders / drivers to undertake advanced training.  That said however, advanced training or even re-testing doesn't necessarily make you a better or safer driver.  Being a competent driver is primarily a mind set, it's how you perceive yourself, your own abilities, and being able to demonstrate the ability to acknowledge your own limitations.  No amount of re-testing or training will ever address those things in an individual.  Speaking as a life long biker,  IMHO, I think  CBT should be something that all potential car drivers should have to do before getting their licence.  I'm not saying it would, but it may just make them a little bit more bike aware.  

[Simon Davey]

Attitude, and lack of reprimand. 

Social attitude is so poor compared to the eighties. 

It's easy on social media to give the impression that you're such a good person, but the reality is that most people don't "give a monky's" about anyone else, and truly believe they can do whatever they like and get away with it. As we have mostly witnessed, they do get away with it, whether being a twat behind the wheel, or not. 

Education of public, social and road manners is key, and should start young. 

 

[Fozzie]

Make lane discipline part of the test. 

 

Then install lane hog detection cameras.

Put a £50 fine on it, with a rule that get 3 strikes in 1 year and you get points for careless driving. 

 

We live in a world of everything all the time, right now. But also paralysing complacency. Everyone wants everything as quickly as they can, with as little effort as possible. And I think this has infected the mindset on the road. Why go in the left lane? You'll only have to come back out in a mile... Why move to the middle lane for a guy not moving much faster behind me? Someone in the left lane might pull out and I'll have to slow down...

 

You force people to drive in right lane. They'll grumble at first, and then it will become second nature and it won't be a problem.

[AstronautNinja]

27 minutes ago, Fozzie said:

Make lane discipline part of the test. 

 

Then install lane hog detection cameras.

Put a £50 fine on it, with a rule that get 3 strikes in 1 year and you get points for careless driving. 

 

We live in a world of everything all the time, right now. But also paralysing complacency. Everyone wants everything as quickly as they can, with as little effort as possible. And I think this has infected the mindset on the road. Why go in the left lane? You'll only have to come back out in a mile... Why move to the middle lane for a guy not moving much faster behind me? Someone in the left lane might pull out and I'll have to slow down...

 

You force people to drive in right lane. They'll grumble at first, and then it will become second nature and it won't be a problem.

The lane confusion is something that really gets on my tits. It is possibly the simplest of all driving aspects to grasp yet the one that is ignored the most frequently. It seems the majority of drivers think we have 1 lane for lorries, one for "going fast" and the rest just to sit in. Fvck off into the left hand lane and we can all make progress.

 

The look on people's faces as they happily sit in the middle lane fully convinced for some unknown reason that they made the right choice and regardless of any situations they'll sit there. 

 

If you ask the average person why they're in the lane they're using very few could justify it with any logic or reasoning let alone describe the proper usage of any lane. 

[Fiddlesticks]

Agree that a lot of it comes down to attitude or general culture. I don't remember exactly where I heard it, but there was a guy who went out to his local traffic light once a year every year to count the number of red light jumpers. Year on year the numbers crept up; a very measurable indicator of driver selfishness.

[AstronautNinja]

As I said in the other thread. The average driver is thick AF, self absorbed, unaware, unobservant and only just above the bare minimum to be passing a test. 

 

No one seems able to judge the width of their car either expecting me to stop and give way despite there being plenty of room if we both just engage our brains...... Situations where a pair of van drivers would squeeze past easily, these fvcking retards are stopping and gobbing off.

 

I do genuinely believe people's ability to think and learn is dropping as time goes on. I'm sure I wasn't surrounded by this amount of retards when I started driving. 

[onesea]

5 hours ago, Simon Davey said:

Attitude, and lack of reprimand. 

Social attitude is so poor compared to the eighties. 

It's easy on social media to give the impression that you're such a good person, but the reality is that most people don't "give a monky's" about anyone else, and truly believe they can do whatever they like and get away with it. As we have mostly witnessed, they do get away with it, whether being a twat behind the wheel, or not. 

Education of public, social and road manners is key, and should start young. 

Since COVID people have become so self obsessed and selfish. 

With driving standards more so in the south, less so in the north.  A recent road trip showed this, lane lane discipline better in north.  I am pretty certain the same goes for attitude in life as well. 

 

Thought for those driving company vehicles, if your drive like a selfish idiot I expect you to treat your customers in the same way so I will look elsewhere. 

Plumbers, Builders, Electricians, domestic cleaners and oddly driving instructors without student seem to be the worst.

There are plenty companies I would not choose for this reason.

 

For those who have hands free "Ok Google cal xyz company" then describe the situation.

Edited October 31, 2024 by onesea

[Bender]

When the police drive in the middle lane with no other traffic about and you catch up then and pass them then indicate and make it obvious they should do the same but don't what's the point.

 

People are more selfish and are generally twats, which transfers to their driving 

[Mawsley]

8 minutes ago, Bender said:

 

People are more selfish and are generally twats, which transfers to their...

 

...entire lives.

[curlylegend]

To start with an IQ test.  Then a psychological evaluation.  

[Bender]

9 hours ago, curlylegend said:

To start with an IQ test.  Then a psychological evaluation.  

I'm with that for the police but it's never going to happen 

[RideWithStyles]

This brought up a question then of means and capabilities testing especially in the older generation which in would have a higher probability of catching those that have a higher risk of creating an accident directly or indirectly in the first place on a different thread… yet many posters (quite a few the same) disagreed with having to be/forced to to have such measures due to them seen as being nearer that threshold.

so most of the older generation having a moan at the young uns saying selfish but on the same sentence you can’t test me because I’m older, I know more, and I have this or that or paid this so I shouldn’t…sounds like childish attitude of just being the older brother/sister, either way way seen it’s same thing.

so the younger generation view is they’re slow, past it, fragile and unbeknown/oblivious to their health issues might have an impact? 

and the older generation think the young uns with no brains or their pubes on fire. 
really everyone is working at a different level.

Most cases aint re education required as that is patronising but because what as comes up time and time again….learning to drive/ride is totally different to learning to pass a test! So if many people had to re do their test now would they pass- more likely not, not particularly due to capable but more of they do it their way and not to the test.

 

anyway a few posters did come up with vaild point’s that is blanket covered without prejudice, attitude and most noticed is lack accountability!

Its like miss behaving children and the parents that don’t do owt to address it, shout at them so much they tune it out as idle threats…but if a actual bitch slap (Will S slap) or some punishment of sitting on the naughty step came every time they broke the rule they more likely come so see well I don’t benefit from being a prick so what’s the point…

 

In the far east, roads behavour was so poor especially when rich people got too giddy or thought they were in their own dictatorship house or bedroom so what was the solution? Extreme surveillance with incredible punishment (primary money driven) for not doing so.
But the European and uk say wait but what about privacy??? Well you already don’t have it! if your in the public domain then tuff shit, streets, you go to the hospital, shops, most bars hell even more people are putting cameras in their own homes like in the lounge and bedrooms and dont moan about that ffs….

So should cars have MORE in built cameras , harsh warnings, recorders that are sent directly to a cloud for processing, ai to spot bad habits and make an account/ notifications to the insurance and police for serious action of the driver? That would certainly make people think more.
 

i also think that it’s down to a design of the vehicle not just exterior but interior is too like modern Peugeots that have a similar cue to Lamborghinis of being fast and in a fight jet, make sense especially if you think about stereotyping.
make it edgy, fast looking, very direct and sport acting, sounds aggressive, even tarted up or mooded out (as some type of people do - more law breaking) thinking corsa /fast and furious crew then odds on the average meat sack will behave in such a manner.

yet if everything was sleek, smooth, sophisticated If you think of like old jags, caddies, Bentleys and rolls Royces etc. (they dont have to cost the earth but designed sensible it’s achievable), other than top gear bull shittery when was the last time you a rolls etc drift around a round about or cut the corner on the back road?

 

 

not making arguments but points. 

Edited November 1, 2024 by RideWithStyles

[Nick the wanderer]

In 1985 there were 15.5 million cars registered on the road.

In April June 2023 there were 41.2 million vehicles.

 

 

[RideWithStyles]

so do you want to add how many people in the uk and licence holders of those times too which might be good for reference.

well it is to be expected with growth in the economy, people and health with the richer economy which has happened, so arguably the balance is very uneven you could say certainly on a small island that hasn’t bothered to foresee or update itself for the predictable future it set out for itself….

So to say a particular person type is/has a selfish attitude and everyone else that doesn’t have a vehicle especially is on the motoring forum isnt? but to own a vehicle is selfish as you do and go where what you want for yourself or family members and not pick up other random people waiting at any time as you was passing is just that…

what about the people who have many bikes/cars? Cant drive/ ride more than one at anytime and to have many more then did you buy the right bike in the first place? could be viewed as wasteful and selfish to other people As a lot of young and older people struggle to get on the private transport ladder nowadays…

you paid for it, you have a status and it’s yours whichh is great for many reasons you see fit and I won’t argue with that but still the same deal that’s the hard fact. So I don’t get the everyone else is more selfish than I attitude.

 

so to start addressing that would you start capping criteria? Say cars and people to a strict age? Of say 15yrs and 70years old no exceptions for example?

number of licenses and cars allowed or issued to a district?
Say 1 vehicle/car to an house hold and so forth etc?

either way you would more than just upset afew people as a lot of the life nowadays has changed compared to the as people work further away, visit places further afield etc, start with that and you’ll be getting more selfish people, greater disparity and resentment plus -

 

public transport could help but its been left in the dust for too long, too far behind for too long in quality, quantity and price to accommodate the masses and their needs/wants not just the city but rural. 
 

Hard decisions that would definitely screw a lot of people over which if it was a dictatorship is one thing but when you don’t and votes are what count….

 

sorry thats my rant .

Edited November 1, 2024 by RideWithStyles

[Fozzie]

15 hours ago, AstronautNinja said:

If you ask the average person why they're in the lane they're using very few could justify it with any logic or reasoning let alone describe the proper usage of any lane. 

 

Someone at my work thought they scored a great "gotcha" by saying "If I'm doing 70mph in the middle lane, you can't over or undertake me without speeding and breaking the law, so why is it so bad?"

 

And I asked how she knew she was doing 70? Speedometers all produce different levels of inaccurate reading. So unless you have a precision calibrated speedometer, she's probably been holding people up... And rules don't just stop applying because of another rule, they work in concurrently, not one or the other. Someone speeding up the inside isn't necessarily undertaking if the lane is clear, so at best they are both as bad as each other, and worst, she's the only one committing a crime. 

 

She sort of smugly dismissed my comments. And mentioned how everyone does it. 

I think I made a comment that if women ever get hunted as witches again, I'll note that it's ok as everyone does it  

Was told that's a different matter entirely, and I agree, but the principle is the same, so where do you draw the line? 

[Capt Sisko]

2 hours ago, Nick the wanderer said:

In 1985 there were 15.5 million cars registered on the road.

In April June 2023 there were 41.2 million vehicles.

 

 

Too many rats in a cage.

[RideWithStyles]

Fozzie Your reply is correct and agree.  

if it wrong and everyone is doing it, it’s wrong. If you don’t want to be wrong dont do it or don’t drive/ride like that, but don’t be surprised if you get caught you get issued, simples.
So I would have put it to her that if everyone starts to bitch slap her it must be ok because everyone does it is that ok???

 

To a point in the very basic principle she is correct but in her doing so she broke two maybe even the three rules that she would have done because of her personal antics. 

stay in the farthest left lane possible unless your immediately over taking a vehicle in front that is much slower say a hgv. Once over taken move over the farthest left lane as soon as possible.

don’t linger in the middle lane or fast lane.

do not to impede someone else’s progress regardless.

Doing so risks driving without due care and attention…if it was policed properly. 

 

once again a “everyone else does it” is a childish attitude, one for the weak willed  and brush into a general away from themselves to not take responsibility for their action while they know full well theyre pushing their righteousness and re enforcing and self importance in doing wrong. 

 

Edited November 1, 2024 by RideWithStyles

[Mickly]

14 hours ago, Bender said:

When the police drive in the middle lane with no other traffic about and you catch up then and pass them then indicate and make it obvious they should do the same but don't what's the point.

 

People are more selfish and are generally twats, which transfers to their driving 

Police hogging the middle lane should be treated as entrapment, they’re just waiting to pull over anyone who undertakes or remonstrates in any way,

[Nick the wanderer]

Police hogging the middle lane should be treated as entrapment, they’re just waiting to pull over anyone who undertakes or remonstrates in any way,

 

That happened to me once on the M62 near Leeds. I went past the copper at like 73 or so, crawled past him. I put a little bit of distance between myself and him and was approaching other vehicles that were on the inside lane, I thought if I could just get in front of them I could hit the gas again and he wouldn't be able to speed check me through traffic, I could ease away.

Turns out he had been checking who I was from my plate and getting what he could on me, pulled me over just as I was about to be gone and gave me the 'how does it look to other road users lecture.' I'm sure the other road users were thanking me as they passed laughing.

[Davidtav]

Regarding lane discipline. I might be misremembering this but I think that in the early 1970s during the energy crisis there was a series of TV adverts telling folks that the first lane on the motorway is for slow vehicles. Middle lane for faster vehicles. And outside lane for overtaking. … as I say I might be misremembering this and I cannot find this on YouTube. I was only about ten years old at the time. But I think I’m right. And I think it explains why a lot of older folk tend to lane hog.

[S-Westerly]

On 31/10/2024 at 12:07, Capt Sisko said:

follow up lessons or maybe a second test to a higher

Speak for yourself. I'm an older person and have never lane hogged in my life. The last person I met doing that was female and given the brief glance as I snarled past in her 30's maybe. Admittedly a lot of old farts do tend to lane hog but I'm an old bast*rd so I'm more likely to be the one who dives up the inside flicking fingers around generously. 

[RideWithStyles]

On 03/11/2024 at 11:30, S-Westerly said:

I'm an old bast*rd so I'm more likely to be the one who dives up the inside flicking fingers around generously. 

Are you taking about hand signals or eager sexual movements ?