Corner/lean confidence.

[husoi]

The mrs is usually a good pillion, the worst is mounting and dismounting. Don't ask me how she does it but for several times I almost had to change my pants...

[Steve_M]

1 hour ago, husoi said:

The mrs is usually a good pillion, the worst is mounting and dismounting. Don't ask me how she does it but for several times I almost had to change my pants...

I tend to lean the bike slightly to the right as mine steps onto the near side foot peg, and bring it upright as she settles into the seat. Her way of getting on the bike is not the most elegant… and takes a while to complete. A guy I know let’s his wife get on first, having the bike on the side stand so she uses the rider’s foot peg initially. Not something I’d try… 

[PaulCa]

4 hours ago, husoi said:

The mrs is usually a good pillion, the worst is mounting and dismounting. Don't ask me how she does it but for several times I almost had to change my pants...

  I have had this when I didn't brief my pillion.  When I told them just to stand up on the peg and step over.... they put their foot on the peg and used me and the topbox to pull themselves up, suddenly putting their entire body weight hanging well outwards from my CoG.  I explained to them to lean over the bike and lift, not the other way around!

[husoi]

4 minutes ago, PaulCa said:

  I have had this when I didn't brief my pillion.  When I told them just to stand up on the peg and step over.... they put their foot on the peg and used me and the topbox to pull themselves up, suddenly putting their entire body weight hanging well outwards from my CoG.  I explained to them to lean over the bike and lift, not the other way around!

If only I have a fiver for each time I explain how to do it... 

[PaulCa]

Thanks for all the responses guys.

 

If I look at other things to compare it to, I have the car and push bike.

 

As a teenager and well into my 20s I went everywhere on a mountain bike.  Off road, on road, long distance, short distance, commuting or just to the shops.  I had no problem ripping that thing sideways at 30mph with the rear wheel locked up.  I used to ride through town like London cycle couriers do, up/down pavements, weaving through people etc.  I had no problem handling wheel spin in mud and I have road rash to prove I didn't always get it right.  I binned the bike "low side" twice at close to 40mph.  Once on road, once off road.  Both times I remember sliding so long I had to time to think, "Why am I still sliding?  I hope I don't hit anything!  Why are their sparks coming from my brake lever?"  it was only after picking myself up I realised it was also my shin and elbow creating sparks (or bits of skin).  The thing was, I knew where the limit was and could easily approach it, listen to the off road tyres sing, feel the tucking of the front wheel, feel the tyres sliding and control it with body weight etc.  One section of coastal path here is covered in crazy paving, but a lot of the bricks are loose.  Even when they are not, you lose traction over the gaps.  I used to love hurtling into corners over the limit, throwing the bike in deep and letting the tyres slide wide over the crazy paving and then try and throw some pedal in if I could spare the lean angle to get the inside round to try and step the back end out.   All at 20mph.

 

In the car it's the same.  I drive a GT86 and when it's wet and nobody is around it's hilariously easy to reach the limit and drive it like your stole it without breaking the limit.  I know exactly where the grip limit is at both ends and have tracked it to prove to myself I could.  I didn't pretty well matching laptimes with 2 race cars, an AE86 Corolla rally car and a ZTec Fiesta, both on slicks with racing brakes and tune.  Although granted I had the horses on them.  The fiesta in particular was in my mirrors every corner having pulled 30 yards on the straights.

 

But then there is the motorbike.  I just see a mistake approaching the limit might have too great of consequences.  I sent many a pushbike down the road.  I've done the picking gravel out of my knees with teasers and detol for hours.  I get the feeling dumping a bike while it's moving will hurt more, cost more and be far more embarressing.

 

At the same time however, if I'm caught out of position on a wet diesel spotted roundabout and need to jink the bike or lean it over more .... can I?  Is there room?  Where is the limit?  How far away am I?  Would I be better off righting the bike and burying the brakes and trying not to hit anything or should I push/pull it down further and risk a low side?  It's that not knowing thing.

 

I can't think of many safe manoeuvres for testing grip limit of the front end in corners, actually either end on tarmac.  In the car, I know there is a zone where you feel and hear the car begin to float a little, the tyres squeal and that thing they call "handling" comes into play.  However, I am also aware that in the wet in particular, the sudden drop in grip when you push it just that little bit more is huge.  Slip angles and getting a little rotation is one thing, a full break away slide is another.  I'm worried there is little to no way to safely test where that zone is for the rubber or the lean angle.  So I steer well clear of it entirely.

 

On the push bike, I would routinely jab the front brake in corners on gravel to remind myself what happens when the front locks, or try to come to a stop with the front wheel locked on lose gravel.  I tried this a few times on a motorbike and found it ok, unless you mess up and the front ends direction disagrees with the bikes.  Then it changes as the bike weighs a lot, so intervening with your feet is much harder and any kind of speed might result in a broken leg.

 

On courses.  Yes.  Sounds like a good idea.  However I'm not mainland.  I'm in Northern Ireland and while it's a lot cheaper to take a bike over to the mainland, it's still a faff.  I did an off road (dirt) weekend in Spain 6 or 7 years ago which I recall improved my street riding confidence too.  I think I'll do some research and see what kind of courses I can find.  Especially if it rents you the bike!  

 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by PaulCa

[PaulCa]

On the body position thing.  It depends on what I'm doing as to whether I will be neutral, leaned or counter leaned.  An important aspect not often mentioned is "view".  A crotchrockeer hanging on by his calf, dragging his knee can see exactly fa^2 where as the next rider counter leaning to stay upright and thus have a higher view point can see much more.  In traffic that can be as simple of leaning the bike right to go round a round about, but you moving your body to the left to sit up straight and look over the cars in front.

 

Cruising down the road.  Neutral.  Arches on the pegs.

Blasting down the road.  Leaned in shoulders and a slight shift of the cheeks.  "Looking over the wing mirror" position.

Doing a u'ie.  Either, depends on how tight the u turn and how tired I am.... or if it's not my bike

In traffic, whatever body position lets me see more, around, over or further.

[Throttled]

20 hours ago, geofferz said:

I love fortnine, and this video is the only single wrong once I've noticed him post. Yes at slow speeds you counter lean to go round potholes etc, but motogp racers go elbow down for a reason. 

 

You can practice anywhere - back garden, synagogue car park... Here's me on my commute to work

 

I thought his video made it clear his advice applied to slow and medium speeds, not high speed and certain not track high speeds. I don't get the knee down, because I do not try to get round corners at mental speeds, as that is not safe.

[PaulCa]

I was out for a blip taking the longest possible route to buy a 6 pack.  I tried a roundabout at 30mph, following a Golf who was pushing it and no peg.  So as I was feeling well in touch with the bike, I counter leaned slowly, but when full upright and bike down much more, still no peg.  I still have 2cm of factory rubber.

 

I tried again at a smaller roundabout on the way back after buying a 12 pack as they were on offer and throwing it in the top box.  Entered for a 180 exit, leaned the bike in and got a nice smooth transition into neutral throttle, so again I counter leaned, put the bike down and started adding speed.  No peg.

 

I get the feeling I'm very close and I should just stay where I am right now, but do it more often as I become comfortable with it.

And ... no.  Having the 12 pack of beer transfer from one side of the top box to the other was... not helpful at all, but correctable.

 

Also did some exercises, like sudden stops and swerves.  For swerve practice when there are nobody about I switch lanes as quickly as I can.  No peg.  I have got a wobble out of the front tyre in the flick over if I'm too abrupt.  Maybe I should start doing that slower too at 10mph rather than 30mph.

Edited October 20, 2021 by PaulCa

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

One thing with motorcycles is the need to brake progressively. The mention of grabbing the brakes on a mountain bike is where you need to ride motorcycles differently.

 

An unloaded front tyre has little grip, if you suddenly grab a handful of brake it's going to let go. The trick is to load the front tyre progressively so that it gains grip, and then you can apply heavier braking force.

 

Look at the many tutorials about trail braking, you'll get the idea. With the brakes applied gently as you enter a corner you've got much greater reaction time and braking capacity.

[Throttled]

I have scraped a peg once, going round a hairpin bend with a pillion. I ride adventure style bikes, with ground clearance that mean if I get a peg down, I am more than likely going down. 

[fullscreenaging]

1 hour ago, Throttled said:

I have scraped a peg once, going round a hairpin bend with a pillion. I ride adventure style bikes, with ground clearance that mean if I get a peg down, I am more than likely going down. 

 

The Versys 1K has a lean angle of 45° before the hero blob touches the deck. 
A sportsbike has more than that so I wouldn’t say that’s the case. I have about 3mm of unused tyre on my Versys 1K and I’ve not touch the tarmac yet with mine. 

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by fullscreenaging

[bonio]

@PaulCa As for courses, might be work taking a look at i2i, as Tom runs some training days in some place to the north of Drogheda; he's a great guy and the whole day is great fun.

[fastbob]

Oh just get a Harley . You'll be too busy looking good to worry about how you're riding it .

Edited October 21, 2021 by fastbob

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

Or buy a Triumph Bobber. Then you get the best of both worlds, cool looks and they handle ridiculously easy. You can hurl them round the twisty bits with ease due to the fact that you bum is so close to the ground.

 

Totally impractical of course but the grin per mile factor is huge.

 

All joking aside I am not a fast rider but I've had knee down guys in full power ranger attire ask how on earth something that looks like that is so hard to keep up with.

[fastbob]

42 minutes ago, Mississippi Bullfrog said:

Or buy a Triumph Bobber. Then you get the best of both worlds, cool looks and they handle ridiculously easy. You can hurl them round the twisty bits with ease due to the fact that you bum is so close to the ground.

 

Totally impractical of course but the grin per mile factor is huge.

 

All joking aside I am not a fast rider but I've had knee down guys in full power ranger attire ask how on earth something that looks like that is so hard to keep up with.

My neighbor is a Triumph test rider and he would agree with you 100% there . Best handling bike ever he says . 

[PaulCa]

19 hours ago, fastbob said:

Oh just get a Harley . You'll be too busy looking good to worry about how you're riding it .

 

More likely cursing the bike for not being able to go around a roundabout WITHOUT scraping the pegs.

[fastbob]

25 minutes ago, PaulCa said:

 

More likely cursing the bike for not being able to go around a roundabout WITHOUT scraping the pegs.

Which is why I bought a Roadster with plenty of ground clearance . 

[Steve_M]

On 19/10/2021 at 11:09, PaulCa said:

Getting the new bike today, hopefully!

 

Been watching a lot of videos and reviewing my road craft etc.  I've been riding for 19 years.  I've only scraped a peg or centre stand twice and it scared the shit out of my both times.  The first time I nearly popped my knee because I put my foot down, at 30mph. PING!

 

On the two test rides, both times I had a "block" in what I call "intuitive automatic control".  Both times going through a corner and the "autopilot" just stopped banking into the corner further and I had to "intervene" and consciously push the inside bar.  Not talking about ripping it, not talking about running wide, just that my confidence bumped into it's limit and I had to drive consciously.  Maybe that's just being rusty.  I'll keep an eye on it.

 

Some of my video watching tells me, that on warm tarmac/asphalt the bike, most bikes, will happily lean that far and the peg scraper is designed to give you warning before any other more solid part of the bike contacts the road. 

 

I suppose other than driving round and round roundabouts, or doing car park slaloms to gain lean angle confidence, there isn't more you can do?

I'm not interested in knee down and body position stuff, and yes I know body position reduces need for lean angle.  What I'm looking for is to remove that "block" I talked about, where my confidence won't let me push the bike down when I need it without having to consciously intervene.  Consciously driving is too slow, too reactive.

 

Especially in the wet.  I have a tendency to drive too cautiously in the wet, trying to keep the bike upright, always paying attention to the balance when hitting the brakes etc.  I'm 100% sure the bike has a lot more grip than I am relying on it for.

 

So while my approach to date has been always error with margin on the safe side, I think I've been over doing that for a few decades and approaching the edges of my comfort zone would do me good.

 

Be nice!

This popped up for me. 
 

I’ve only heard good things about Rapid Training as a group, so I would add this to my list of options to help you.

 

 

Rapid Training link