Corner/lean confidence.

[PaulCa]

Getting the new bike today, hopefully!

 

Been watching a lot of videos and reviewing my road craft etc.  I've been riding for 19 years.  I've only scraped a peg or centre stand twice and it scared the shit out of my both times.  The first time I nearly popped my knee because I put my foot down, at 30mph. PING!

 

On the two test rides, both times I had a "block" in what I call "intuitive automatic control".  Both times going through a corner and the "autopilot" just stopped banking into the corner further and I had to "intervene" and consciously push the inside bar.  Not talking about ripping it, not talking about running wide, just that my confidence bumped into it's limit and I had to drive consciously.  Maybe that's just being rusty.  I'll keep an eye on it.

 

Some of my video watching tells me, that on warm tarmac/asphalt the bike, most bikes, will happily lean that far and the peg scraper is designed to give you warning before any other more solid part of the bike contacts the road. 

 

I suppose other than driving round and round roundabouts, or doing car park slaloms to gain lean angle confidence, there isn't more you can do?

I'm not interested in knee down and body position stuff, and yes I know body position reduces need for lean angle.  What I'm looking for is to remove that "block" I talked about, where my confidence won't let me push the bike down when I need it without having to consciously intervene.  Consciously driving is too slow, too reactive.

 

Especially in the wet.  I have a tendency to drive too cautiously in the wet, trying to keep the bike upright, always paying attention to the balance when hitting the brakes etc.  I'm 100% sure the bike has a lot more grip than I am relying on it for.

 

So while my approach to date has been always error with margin on the safe side, I think I've been over doing that for a few decades and approaching the edges of my comfort zone would do me good.

 

Be nice!

[husoi]

For what you're saying, your riding style is a lot on the cautious side. This is far from being a bad thing and for the look of it have kept you safe.

There are lots of factors in cornering grip. tyre quality, centre pf gravity, weight of the bike, load (rider, pillion, luggage). Even wind will greatly affect your grip. Not to mention external factors, grit/sand/gravel/dirt, tarmac condition etc.

There are 2 major "schools" about leaning.

Some say that you should lean the bike more than the body while others say the opposite. In a way they are both correct but it depends on what speed you're carrying and I'm sure you have watched plenty of clips about it.

 

The best way for you to explore further how far you can lean is to practice.

I always prefer to think to myself that I could have gone through the curve faster than going "OOOOHHHHH SHIIITT!!" realising I should have slowdown.

 

Don't get me wrong, I have replaced my foot rests on my first VFR and my boots were bruised quite often. Growing old I don't do it anymore and take more pleasure on enjoying the trip rather than looking forward getting there in a record time.

 

Why should you explore how far you can go when leaning? because in an emergency you will know the limit which at the moment you have no idea what that is  

[bonio]

I think you just need to keep on practising. The problem I find is that it's hard to find the right road conditions that allow you to practise consistently. On the road, you have to take whatever opportunities the traffic and the road surface offer you, and so it's hard to build up confidence. The best you can do is to try hooning round a large roundabout at night. What about going on a day's course that includes some cornering work? Something like i2i perhaps or HRT or a knee down day?

 

As for cornering in the wet, I'm cautious too, and I'm not about to change. It's true that tyres are very grippy in the wet, and I could probably do a lot of corners with more lean than I do. But, in winter at least, the chance of coming across some mud or some diesel, or leaves or just the general oily grime that comes off cars is too high - and you often can't see it when the roads are wet until it's too late. 

[Bender]

I would second doing a course off road with proper instruction, you will feel safer and have someone watching that can tell you what the problems if any are. 

[Throttled]

I have been leaning the "wrong way" since I started riding, because it felt more secure. This video suggests the "wrong way" is in fact the right way.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1mSavQ_DXs

[Steve_M]

6 hours ago, Bender said:

I would second doing a course off road with proper instruction, you will feel safer and have someone watching that can tell you what the problems if any are. 

I would recommend a “Better Riding Day” with Hopp Rider Training at Cadwell Park or one of the i2i machine control courses (or both).

 

Each will work you through cornering, though with slightly different approaches (which is why I suggest both). And don’t worry about the Hopp appearing to be track biased, it’s for road bikes only, and most riders actually ride to and from the track.

 

 

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

24 minutes ago, Throttled said:

I have been leaning the "wrong way" since I started riding, because it felt more secure. This video suggests the "wrong way" is in fact the right way.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1mSavQ_DXs

Those of us who grew up risking life and limb on pushbikes doing many silly things our parents ought not to know about learned this by instinct. The problem these days is so few people come to motorcycles having spent a misspent youth on pushbikes.

[Steve_M]

17 hours ago, Throttled said:

I have been leaning the "wrong way" since I started riding, because it felt more secure. This video suggests the "wrong way" is in fact the right way.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1mSavQ_DXs

Hmmm.

 

His conclusion works as long as you take only the body position into account. Unfortunately there are a number of other variables, not least how the suspension works. He’s saying to lean the bike more, which will reduce the effectiveness of the suspension which works best the nearer vertical the bike is. 

 

EDIT; I’ve just been trying his advice. Going to Carlisle  there are a number of varied bends and hazards on which to explore options. I can see the case for me in a small number of circumstances but on the whole I found it to reduce the suspension’s effectiveness and made counter (or positive) steering less easy by my inside hand. I’ll stick to using it for slow speed manoeuvring…. 
 

This is my view - i would suggest, at your own risk, trying it before dismissing it. 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Steve_M

[geofferz]

1 hour ago, Throttled said:

I have been leaning the "wrong way" since I started riding, because it felt more secure. This video suggests the "wrong way" is in fact the right way.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1mSavQ_DXs

I love fortnine, and this video is the only single wrong once I've noticed him post. Yes at slow speeds you counter lean to go round potholes etc, but motogp racers go elbow down for a reason. 

 

You can practice anywhere - back garden, synagogue car park... Here's me on my commute to work

Edited October 19, 2021 by geofferz

[Lateralus]

I second the calls for something like the i2i courses. I did them last year and they've made me think about my riding and control of the bike in a very different way. I have more confidence in what it can do, and fully intend to revisit the first two courses again as soon as time allows. 

[Steve_M]

12 minutes ago, Lateralus said:

I second the calls for something like the i2i courses. I did them last year and they've made me think about my riding and control of the bike in a very different way. I have more confidence in what it can do, and fully intend to revisit the first two courses again as soon as time allows. 

Have a go at the Knee Down course. Tom covers much of the ground from his other courses, the “knee down” is a bonus (I barely managed to touch a slider down, a mate of mine wore through a set). 
 

 

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

Several sources have discussed FortNine's article. Most have concluded that it's horses for courses. Yes, at track speeds and conditions there's one way to do it, but that doesn't apply to all, or even most, road riding situations. But there's a lot of bikers who think there's only one way to corner. The point us that there are different ways, and they work differently for different speeds and conditions. 

[Pie man]

 

I like this guy 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Pie man

[Bender]

I'm sure I watched a vid on police riders leaning away rather than into the corner, better for control and view of the road I think they said. 

[fastbob]

8 hours ago, PaulCa said:

Getting the new bike today, hopefully!

 

Been watching a lot of videos and reviewing my road craft etc.  I've been riding for 19 years.  I've only scraped a peg or centre stand twice and it scared the shit out of my both times.  The first time I nearly popped my knee because I put my foot down, at 30mph. PING!

 

On the two test rides, both times I had a "block" in what I call "intuitive automatic control".  Both times going through a corner and the "autopilot" just stopped banking into the corner further and I had to "intervene" and consciously push the inside bar.  Not talking about ripping it, not talking about running wide, just that my confidence bumped into it's limit and I had to drive consciously.  Maybe that's just being rusty.  I'll keep an eye on it.

 

Some of my video watching tells me, that on warm tarmac/asphalt the bike, most bikes, will happily lean that far and the peg scraper is designed to give you warning before any other more solid part of the bike contacts the road. 

 

I suppose other than driving round and round roundabouts, or doing car park slaloms to gain lean angle confidence, there isn't more you can do?

I'm not interested in knee down and body position stuff, and yes I know body position reduces need for lean angle.  What I'm looking for is to remove that "block" I talked about, where my confidence won't let me push the bike down when I need it without having to consciously intervene.  Consciously driving is too slow, too reactive.

 

Especially in the wet.  I have a tendency to drive too cautiously in the wet, trying to keep the bike upright, always paying attention to the balance when hitting the brakes etc.  I'm 100% sure the bike has a lot more grip than I am relying on it for.

 

So while my approach to date has been always error with margin on the safe side, I think I've been over doing that for a few decades and approaching the edges of my comfort zone would do me good.

 

Be nice!

What you are describing sounds like the way I have ridden motorcycles for over 40 years . We all have different levels of aptitude for riding bikes just as we have different levels of aptitude for playing the guitar or playing tennis . Just because you love bikes dosen't mean you're any good at it . So don't worry about it . Stay safely within the bounds of your ability and just enjoy . Quick story . I used to work with a young Andy Carlisle . You'll have to Google him but he's the fastest biker round the Nurburgring and a mate of Guy Martin . Andy would come to work on whatever bike he had to hand including a scooter . One day I followed him home on my GSXR and what I saw astonishes me to this day . He appeared to just get this thing up to full speed and then fling it smoothly into any corner without braking or throttling back . The lean angle on those little tyres defied belief and I was sure he was headed for a slide but it never happened . What struck me was the sheer fluidity of his riding style and complete lack of fear . In other words , he was naturally gifted .  I am not naturally gifted at anything much but I'm not going to let a little thing like that put me off . 

[Steve_M]

22 minutes ago, Bender said:

I'm sure I watched a vid on police riders leaning away rather than into the corner, better for control and view of the road I think they said. 

Nothing about that in Roadcraft. 

[Bender]

5 minutes ago, Steve_M said:

Nothing about that in Roadcraft. 

I didn't say there was  

 

Theres nothing to say it was even our police it was referring to, I just recall seeing a vid on YouTube so it must be true. 

[S-Westerly]

Have to say for the bike I ride which is pretty tall and has an upright riding position getting my elbow down is a non-starter. My knee down not really, I can scrape a peg but I prefer not too and counter leaning seems to work well for me. The bike seems more stable. If I was on a crotch rocket it wouldn't as I'd be already over the tank. Horses for courses I think.

[Steve_M]

43 minutes ago, fastbob said:

What you are describing sounds like the way I have ridden motorcycles for over 40 years . We all have different levels of aptitude for riding bikes just as we have different levels of aptitude for playing the guitar or playing tennis . Just because you love bikes dosen't mean you're any good at it . So don't worry about it . Stay safely within the bounds of your ability and just enjoy . Quick story . I used to work with a young Andy Carlisle . You'll have to Google him but he's the fastest biker round the Nurburgring and a mate of Guy Martin . Andy would come to work on whatever bike he had to hand including a scooter . One day I followed him home on my GSXR and what I saw astonishes me to this day . He appeared to just get this thing up to full speed and then fling it smoothly into any corner without braking or throttling back . The lean angle on those little tyres defied belief and I was sure he was headed for a slide but it never happened . What struck me was the sheer fluidity of his riding style and complete lack of fear . In other words , he was naturally gifted .  I am not naturally gifted at anything much but I'm not going to let a little thing like that put me off . 

But there’s no harm in seeking to improve, which I think the OP is doing.

 

For a few years I doubt I leant my bike much at all, apprehensive of the consequences. Numerous courses, much training has made me less concerned, a result being that I enjoy my riding rather than spend so much time anxious.

 

As an aside, I tend to ride “in line” with the bike’s axis … unless manoeuvring at slow speed or swerving, when I’ll push the bike down.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Steve_M

[bonio]

Too stiff in the joints to get a knee down. I can lean the bike as much as I like, but the pelvis and hips just won't flex like that no more 

[Bender]

I tend to ride the same, inline with the bike, I've never had any issues with leaning. 

[Steve_M]

1 minute ago, Bender said:

I tend to ride the same, inline with the bike, I've never had any issues with leaning. 

I did start to shift my backside over to the inside and shifting my weight accordingly on track but given that I’m borderline inters/fast group, I’m not threatening lap records so stopped. And on the road there’s not sensible reason to need to. 

[Bender]

5 minutes ago, Steve_M said:

I did start to shift my backside over to the inside and shifting my weight accordingly on track but given that I’m borderline inters/fast group, I’m not threatening lap records so stopped. And on the road there’s not sensible reason to need to. 

The only movement on my seat is usually the wife who invariably decides to shuffle about just as I'm about to stop, never ceases to catch me out. 

[Steve_M]

11 minutes ago, Bender said:

The only movement on my seat is usually the wife who invariably decides to shuffle about just as I'm about to stop, never ceases to catch me out. 

My good lady knows to sit still at slow speed. I took her out on the bike for our first “date” and we had a good chat beforehand about dos and don’ts. She now tells everyone she’s a very good “sack of potatoes” which is the key instruction I gave her.

[Bender]

4 minutes ago, Steve_M said:

My good lady knows to sit still at slow speed. I took her out on the bike for our first “date” and we had a good chat beforehand about dos and don’ts. She now tells everyone she’s a very good “sack of potatoes” which is the key instruction I gave her.

Mine thinks 3mph is stopped, we've had the talk, think Dory