Automotive Battery Full Charge in 5 minutes...

[Gerontious]

This is interesting.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/19/electric-car-batteries-race-ahead-with-five-minute-charging-times

[Bender]

Advances are on the way and they need to be, most full electric new cars are beyond the reach of an awful lot of folk and buying used with the prospect of stumping up thousands for a new battery is off putting. 

[husoi]

4 minutes ago, Bender said:

Advances are on the way and they need to be, most full electric new cars are beyond the reach of an awful lot of folk and buying used with the prospect of stumping up thousands for a new battery is off putting. 

This is now a myth.

My Nissan EV does 180-200 miles on 1 charge. Ok it takes 1hr to a full charge from 20% but this new type of battery would greatly increase the advantage of driving EV's

If these batteries start to be fitted on bikes, then you can go 70-100 miles on 1 charge and have a 10min break while charging and continue the trip.

[Bender]

2 hours ago, husoi said:

This is now a myth.

My Nissan EV does 180-200 miles on 1 charge. Ok it takes 1hr to a full charge from 20% but this new type of battery would greatly increase the advantage of driving EV's

If these batteries start to be fitted on bikes, then you can go 70-100 miles on 1 charge and have a 10min break while charging and continue the trip.

It's a myth the ev's are unaffordable and batteries are expensive? 

[husoi]

Just now, Bender said:

It's a myth the ev's are unaffordable and batteries are expensive? 

NO, a myth that they don't go far enough.

About price, yes they are more expensive to buy but you have to keep in mind that a ICE car costs around 20-25p/mile while a EV costs 5-10p/mile (25p/kwh)

So to be more accurate you need to consider the cost over 3 years for both.

[Gerontious]

of course they are expensive too buy.. they are only made in relatively small numbers and that is mainly due to concerns that my original post hints at progress towards addressing. There will come a tipping point though where economies of scale turn the current price differential on its head. This has happened with absolutely every new tech thats come along.  Early adopters pay a lot. then a few years later....

[Slowlycatchymonkey]

Do all electric cars charge themselves? ie is the energy of the wheels spinning used to recharge as you go? I appreciate it would be diminishing returns, just wondering if it was possible to charge and use a battery at the same time, or maybe they have two? As you can tell I have no clue how they work!

Edited January 19, 2021 by Slowlycatchymonkey

[Gerontious]

2 minutes ago, Slowlycatchymonkey said:

Do all electric cars charge themselves? ie is the energy of the wheels spinning used to recharge as you go? I appreciate it would be diminishing returns, just wondering if it was possible to charge and use a battery at the same time, or maybe they have two? As you can tell I have no clue how they work!

at least some do... on downward slopes. where less power is required to drive the mass forward.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Gerontious

[Slowlycatchymonkey]

Just now, Gerontious said:

at least some do... on downward slopes.

I know so little about it I can’t tell if you’re joking?!  

[Bender]

Most if not all have regenerative braking so energy is put back into the batteries instead of you using brakes, usually how much can be set on the system, it's a bit like an electric brake, think one of them actually market it as e brake or some such nonsense.

 

It does work, what dosen't work so good are self charging only, you have to put energy into moving the vehicle to then recover it.

 

Mild hybrids should be marketed as shit hybrid with tiny batteries. It's done to eek out any green credentials with minimal costs and few benefits.

[Gerontious]

All of which has nothing to do with the subject of this post. which is about a step change in technology where a battery powered vehicle could possibly be fully recharged in the time it takes to visit the toilet at a charging station (old petrol station)

 

The article also hints on further developments where these new batteries will not use as much.. or any rare earth metals. but instead silicon. which is a very cheap material with an inexhaustible supply. its the second most abundant element on this planet. 

 

The biggest barriers to electric vehicles has always been cost (due to economies of scale), range and the time it takes to 'refuel'

Edited January 19, 2021 by Gerontious

[James in Brum]

What he said.

[S-Westerly]

Similar article was in the Telegraph. When the technology catches up with the concept EV's will take off. If you can get 2-300 mile range and a re-charge of 10 minutes or so the whole idea becomes a lot more attractive. To my mind the biggest stumbling block will be infrastructure and the electricity supply available. Think a bank holiday weekend and all those cars trying to recharge on M-way  services. Still a way to go I think. 

[Mr Fro]

*Possible thread derailment alert*

 

This is interesting as I am doing my dissertation on EV vs hybrid technology and associated infrastructure.

 

As @S-Westerly pointed out, we do not have the infrastructure to supply the power needed to run significant amounts of EV, nor do we have the power generating capacity - we're nowhere near!

 

The main focus of switching to EV is the cost to the consumer which is valid however, the other aspect is fuel efficiecy. The UK generates most of it's power from gas and oil with a bit from nuclear and some renewables with a smidge of imports. When you consider the efficiency of burning the fuel to what you get out of the plug, it's around 48% (from memory). A good diesel car will convert ~45% of the fuel energy in to usable power.

 

Now add on the losses incurred in charging the EV which are around 16% and all of a sudden, EV are less efficient than diesel. That's a non-hybrid diesel. Chuck regenerative braking and exhaust energy recovery which could grab you an extra 12% efficiency and you've got to question why anyone vaguely interested in emissions or fuel efficiency would want an EV.

 

Then there's the "where exactly am I supposed to charge my car" question...

[Guest]

On 19/01/2021 at 12:37, Gerontious said:

This is interesting.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/19/electric-car-batteries-race-ahead-with-five-minute-charging-times

 

Saw this also; very encouraging indeed!

 

I'd buy an electric bike without hesitation if I could afford one (but this is also changing quickly). 

 

I like the look of Energica at the moment Electric Motorcycle Energica Ego. The first italian all electric motorcycle (energicamotor.com)

[bonio]

On 19/01/2021 at 22:00, Mr Fro said:

*Possible thread derailment alert*

 

This is interesting as I am doing my dissertation on EV vs hybrid technology and associated infrastructure.

 

The main focus of switching to EV is the cost to the consumer which is valid however, the other aspect is fuel efficiecy. The UK generates most of it's power from gas and oil with a bit from nuclear and some renewables with a smidge of imports. When you consider the efficiency of burning the fuel to what you get out of the plug, it's around 48% (from memory). A good diesel car will convert ~45% of the fuel energy in to usable power.

 

Now add on the losses incurred in charging the EV which are around 16% and all of a sudden, EV are less efficient than diesel. That's a non-hybrid diesel. Chuck regenerative braking and exhaust energy recovery which could grab you an extra 12% efficiency and you've got to question why anyone vaguely interested in emissions or fuel efficiency would want an EV.

This is correct. A year ago I filed a complaint to the ASA about an advert that claimed driving EV cars produced 60% less CO2. I sent in a set of calculations based on current electricity generation stats and standard figures for mpg vs miles per kWh, allowing for charging losses, showing that the two produced roughly the same amount of CO2 per mile. I got a quick response from the ASA that talked entirely about smart meters. So I wrote them this letter

 

Dear Ms Scarpati,

Thank you so much for taking the time to read my concerns and to write me a reply.

I read with interest the rulings you referenced regarding advertisements about smart meters, but I can't make the connection between these and my complaint, which was solely about electric cars and electricity generation.

When a company claims that an electric car will lead to reductions of 60% of CO2 emissions against a petrol car, it isn't making a claim about the effects of smart meters. And when its claims fail to stack up against independent analysis, it should be made to withdraw them. Please could you let me know at what point my thinking differs from yours.

Kind regards,

 

and of course never got a reply

 

I should say here I am all in favour of electric cars - and electric motorbikes (I've tried one, it was a real blast). I'm just not in favour of false advertising and fake figures. 

 

As far as I can see, given a bit more time, wind generation will continue to grow, mainly because it's cheaper than gas or oil, and the emissions argument will tilt increasingly in favour of electric cars. But anyone who's seriously concerned about CO2 emissions should probably be hanging out a bit longer before getting themselves one.

 

Oh no.... I've completely derailed the thread.

[Mr Fro]

Nice one @bonio. Shame you didn't get a response.

 

I'd like an electric car - nice little snooze in a Tesla on the way to work or maybe a chewie from a floozie. Who knows.

 

Look at the French (sorry) they've got stacks of spare electricity as they're over producing because they've got nuclear. That what we need.

[Gerontious]

I wouldn’t worry so much about the present under capacity of electricity. When the inevitable tipping point arrives I reckon it will be the big oil companies that will fill the void by diversifying into production and supply. So you might have a petrol station owned by Shell for instance. With a single petrol and diesel pump and numerous fast charging points with the electricity produced by dedicated generating plants. If we are on the cusp of 5 minute full charging. Where might we be in another 5/10 years?

[husoi]

Well. I can say that I'm on my second electric car and have no intentions in going back to fossils.

When it is said that EV's have less emissions compared with ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) it is because EV's don't even have a tail pipe so there are no emissions at all.

True producing electricity from fossils will have CO2 implications but if most energy is created by solar, wind or even nuclear then the CO2 emissions are far less than producing fossils.

Don't forget that you spend a lot of energy (mostly electricity) refining crude into petrol or diesel, you have tankers transporting crude all around the world.

Then there is the infrastructure.

A power line lasts far longer than a pipeline and requires less maintenance.

1km of 500kV cable takes less CO2 emissions to fabricate than 1km of crude oil

A power station produces electricity for both EV's and ICE.

take aside the EV's for a moment. As you explained @bonio there are emissions while producing electricity for an EV and that is not disputed.

emissions for electricity will be added to all the emissions to produce petrol (lets stay with petrol as I'm not aware of diesel bikes) then you have tanker lorries transporting petrol to the stations. then you have the electric pumps to put the liquid in the tanks. normal operation of fuel stations will be similar to EV chargers so one will balance the other.

 

So as you can see, in fact EV's produce less emissions than ICE's and taking all into account it is likely that the figure of 60% is not far off.

Will be even higher once wind and solar power production becomes 50% or more than fossil.

 

But at the end, I think is a good thing that people openly dispute the statements and false advertising (which I'm deadly against).  

 

PS: I loathe the claim from a Japanese brand that hybrid cars are self-charging, that is a load of bollocks and it should have been banned. Hybrid cars are anything but efficient, I drove one and I know what I'm talking about.

[onesea]

I would like an electric car to go with the big diesel something like the old Morris Minor Van. Small light with heated screens and I would even say no heating. Minimalist weight is killer with Moving things and electric cars are really effected by it.  Ideal for short journeys.

 

My big Deisel will do less miles but the miles it’s design for over an hour or pulling caravan. Something EV’s can do but are not really up to yet.

[manxie49]

15 hours ago, ZX7R said:

 

Saw this also; very encouraging indeed!

 

I'd buy an electric bike without hesitation if I could afford one (but this is also changing quickly). 

 

I like the look of Energica at the moment Electric Motorcycle Energica Ego. The first italian all electric motorcycle (energicamotor.com)

That is one of the better looking e-bikes I've seen, the cost however is horrific 

[Guest]

Apologies in advance (I've been at the 6.8% IPA), but what's the view on this?

 

IS THERE ENOUGH JUICE? Chris Harris talks EVs with Graeme Cooper from the National Grid | Top Gear - YouTube

 

 

[bonio]

TL;DR; Nice interview, but they steered away from the difficult issues.

 

Wow, I listened to the whole thing. I liked all the comments - they were really positive. And the two guys can certainly talk well and sound intelligent. I'm not sure I was completely convinced by the conversation, though. They spent a lot of time talking about recharging, but this is the easy bit - you just the plug the thing in and make enough charging stations available. Batteries are more interesting, so it was a bit sad when the the guy just said they were doing "clever things" and moved on. Generating the electricity is another interesting area - we know how to generate the amount of electricity we need using offshore wind, but we're at least 20 or 25 years away from having enough nuclear in the mix to solve the problem, and we don't have a plan B that is non-nuclear.  

 

But the really tough problem is balancing the grid. When I hear from people who are actually working on solving this, they're very upbeat about it all, but they don't have a solution that is carbon zero. Wind generation is very peaky. Right now, when the wind starts to die down, we fire up the gas generators and in half an hour we've got another few GW on line. Nuclear generators don't do that; you have to start them up weeks before they reach full power, and they run best when they're always on. So we have nuclear + wind + what else can we add in to make up the deficit when we have a week of calm weather in December? I just can't see how everyone having an old battery from a car under the stairs (as the guy suggested) is going to keep all the lights on and all the traffic still running across the country for a week. Perhaps we need vast battery warehouses connected to the grid (I think they're doing this in the US?) or have carbon capture plants built next to the gas generators, and use overproduction from wind to synthesize fuel which the generator can burn when needed. Perhaps we need both.

Edited January 23, 2021 by bonio

[Bender]

Australia has the world's biggest battery store courtesy of Mr musk if I remember correctly, it's also working better then expected.

[Pie man]

On 22/01/2021 at 07:54, Gerontious said:

I wouldn’t worry so much about the present under capacity of electricity. When the inevitable tipping point arrives I reckon it will be the big oil companies that will fill the void by diversifying into production and supply. So you might have a petrol station owned by Shell for instance. With a single petrol and diesel pump and numerous fast charging points with the electricity produced by dedicated generating plants. If we are on the cusp of 5 minute full charging. Where might we be in another 5/10 years?

It's on it's way. BP station near me now has as many charging points than fuel pumps.