Pros and cons of different sized engines.

[James in Brum]

Hi gang,

I was musing this morning on my commute about how much more pleasant it is on my 600 compared to similar commutes on my 125. That said I’m not convinced that, on any part of my commute except the motorway/NSL roads, I need bigger and I notice a difference in fuel, 50mpg vs 100mpg.

I feel more secure and safe in all weathers on the 600, it is less easy (though not difficult) to filter. 
 

Then I saw an article about a 250 and a 370 CC (or something like that) and it go me wondering. 
what are the pay offs and losses as you increase in engine size?

[dynax]

Apart from the obvious fuel economy and putting less strain on the engine etc, most of it is psychological eg bigger engine equals bigger bike therefore better visibility, which is not always the case.

How much does your 600 weigh compared to the 125, I would hazard a guess that despite the power difference if they were both the same dimensions and weighed the same, in an urban enviroment they would feel pretty much the same.

It would be an interesting test to ride identical bikes but with different engine sizes to compare them with each other

[geofferz]

No one needs a bigger bike than a 125 but plenty of people want one. 

[Stu]

5 minutes ago, geofferz said:

No one needs a bigger bike than a 125 but plenty of people want one. 

 

Not entirely true! 

 

I wouldn't be able to do a 2 week trip to Europe on a 125 with luggage and a pillion  

[geofferz]

Just now, Stu said:

 

Not entirely true! 

 

I wouldn't be able to do a 2 week trip to Europe on a 125 with luggage and a pillion  

You absolutely could! Would be horrific but definitely possible (as long as you have a full licence). 

[Stu]

1 minute ago, geofferz said:

You absolutely could! Would be horrific but definitely possible (as long as you have a full licence). 

 

Thats what I am saying

 

"I" wouldn't 

 

You might be able to but I wouldn't  

 

A 125 is way too small in size for a start to get any sort of comfort on a long distance twos up then you have the challenge of getting all the luggage on and once in a mountain pass you're not making it to the top  

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

I loved my 125 and intended to keep it, but our main office moved and it meant using motorways to get there. Hence I bought the CBF500.

 

Sure you can do 60+ on a 125 but everything is at it limit and you've nothing in reserve. Passing sliproads going slower than traffic joining isn't fun.

 

I now have a 500 and a 1200, on the wet and muddy roads round here the 500 is easier to ride. But on a sunny day on a busy A road the 1200 makes overtaking much simpler.

 

On motorways it really doesn't make difference. Once you're at 70 on a naked bike there's little incentive to go faster.

 

If I didn't need to use motorways for work I'd probably go back to a 125 for the day job.

[Steve_M]

Some years ago I bought a Suzuki GN125, to sit alongside my VFR800, for my daily commute. My commute was about 7 miles using city roads (Norwich) or 6 miles if I used a short stretch of the A47 dual carriageway.

 

The city route was tedious. Norwich city planners are really good at causing traffic issues and even on the 125, filtering was a chore, so I used the A47. The 125 had a useable top speed of a around 60mph, though on the uphill stretch I had to ride (yes, Norfolk has some inclines) from Broadland up to Trowse that could drop to 50mph. This meant HGV’s were overtaking me, albeit slowly. In daylight in fine weather this was fine. In sh*tty winter weather in the dark it was unnerving - as in I had to change my underwear when I got home.

 

I kept that bike for 6months, sold it at a profit which paid for my six months of commuting and bought something a bit bigger. Do not laugh when  i tell you I bought a Honda ST1100 for my commute. It was actually a good decision as the A47 commute felt less hazardous, the little bit of town work remaining was no more of an issue, and I was able to use it for a wide variety of purposes (including a charity run up Prescott Hill climb with my good lady pillion).

 

With hindsight, a 250 - 400cc bike would have been ideal for the commute. As it happened, the succession of bikes arising from the decision to have the 125 has, by and large, worked out well for me. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Steve_M
Typos

[Bender]

1 hour ago, James in Brum said:

Hi gang,

I was musing this morning on my commute about how much more pleasant it is on my 600 compared to similar commutes on my 125. That said I’m not convinced that, on any part of my commute except the motorway/NSL roads, I need bigger and I notice a difference in fuel, 50mpg vs 100mpg.

I feel more secure and safe in all weathers on the 600, it is less easy (though not difficult) to filter. 
 

Then I saw an article about a 250 and a 370 CC (or something like that) and it go me wondering. 
what are the pay offs and losses as you increase in engine size?

There are some very good bikes in the middle ground between 125 and 5/600

 

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/bike-search?advertising-location=at_bikes&make=SUZUKI&model=V-STROM 250&price-from=500

 

I did like the 125 and it was great but I was glad to get off it, I find little to no difference filtering, both bikes are better at it than I would ever be

 

 

Practicality wise the 125 would have been hopeless with the wife on the back and possibly bordering on dangerous on nsl roads, overtaking would be out as everyone would be passing, hills would be of particular concern.

[dynax]

The biggest issue with 125's are that most don't have the max bhp allowed, if you look at the specs most are around 10 bhp, some are around 12 but very few actually have the full 15bhp. What would make sense would be to increase the limit to around 18bhp and actually have it there to use.

[Guest Richzx6r]

I found my 125s a hoot to ride and really I probably didn't need to get anything bigger but as has been said already its those moments where its just not quite fast enough in certain circumstances that the bigger cc machine makes riding safer 

[The Hitcher]

3 hours ago, Stu said:

 

Not entirely true! 

 

I wouldn't be able to do a 2 week trip to Europe on a 125 with luggage and a pillion  

Well, you probably could but it would turn into a 4 week trip and be quite unpleasant.....

 

Nothing wrong with 125s though, it’s just use the right tool for the job I suppose, fwiw I wouldn’t want to do a 2 week European trip on my bike either, it would be horrible!.

Edited January 4, 2021 by The Hitcher

[manxie49]

Doing big miles on a small bike is doable .... Look at this guy.  Would I want to do it, definitely not!  I went to Switzerland a few years ago on a blade, 900cc and it virtually crippled my back, good fun but wouldn't do it again.  Different bikes for different purposes that's why I'm now looking for a bike that is fit for two up, touring as well as day to day knock about.  In the winter I have a 250cc dual purpose bike that I use most of the time, road and off road, plenty of power and does what I need it to do .... As for 125's, I've had some good fun on smaller bikes over the years, cheap to run, nimble, great for the commute and easy to maintain.

 

[fastbob]

" Is that a GSXR 750 ? " " No mate , it's a GSXR 1100 " It was worth buying just to be able to say that .   I've never really made a rational decision about a bike other than it had to be bigger and faster than the last one .(  Until recently ) 

Edited January 4, 2021 by fastbob

[linuxrob]

Interesting discussion. I have seen an increase in bike commuting over the last 20 years so and would hope that more people want to use use a bike for this and more. More bikes not just 125's would solve a lot of places traffic problems and help the environment. 

 

Used to use a CD175 for winter and later a 400/4 then XJ550 till around 10 years ago to keep the worst off the bike bikes. I acquired the GS125 in boxes and decided to use that for the winter duties, now use it all year round for commute and short trips. Not as good as my CD175 was on A roads but at 120+MPG, £10 additional on my insurance and next to no VED it makes a lot of sense as well as being fun, fun, fun. Have thought about a 250 or even a 500 but do not have anymore space in the shed so the 125 would have to go. It is nearly half the weight of my Bandit and 80 KG lighter than the Z500 so is a cinch around town and getting it in an out of any parking spaces. I have done the odd trip to York and back (115 miles) at 50 mph on A roads but did not like the 8 miles or so I did down to Scotch Corner on the A1 getting to Richmond, and this was a clear dry day. 

 

I do run LED DRL's so my front view is about the same as a bigger bike. I find in general other see me no more or no less than my Bandit or Z500, when they bother to look anyway. If I worked in Middlesbrough and commuted on the A66. I would get a 500 or, god forbid, a car.

 

 

[dynax]

With biking there are no hard and fast rules to follow (apart from the obvious laws etc), so do whatever makes you smile

[James in Brum]

Thanks gang for engaging in the chat, what about the other sizes? The 250s 300s, 400s, nearly a litre, more than a litre. What are the pros and cons in your experience?

[Gerontious]

I get a consistent 65mpg from my 2018 1000cc whereas I got 48mpg from my 2000 1100.

For my purposes its all about torque and especially, though obviously not exclusively, in the mountains. and effortless motorway cruising for the 'getting there'. adding luggage or carrying a pillion has a no appreciable effect on performance. I can ride in any 'mode' I like and be confident there's always 'more' on tap. its been a long time since I last rode anything under 750cc, so im not exactly well placed to pass judgement on smaller bikes. These days it seems to be more about affordability, especially insurance that determines what you ride. unless you're a tad perverse. (obviously)

But.. I would be interested to read what the OP on his ZZR600D1's, opinion if he were ever to try, for an extended period a much larger and more modern Kawasaki. or go the other direction to one of these new 300cc bikes. (which I've always thought were rather smashing.. though too small for my frame.)

 

at the end off the day its not what you ride, its that you ride.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Gerontious

[dynax]

Over the next few years we will probably see an increase in the 250cc-500cc range. main reason the directive change for A2 licence, which although has already changed in the EU will take longer over here, but it will happen once things settle down with covid. Lexmoto have already introduced 250cc and 380cc models to their range, some other brands are also following suit or have done so for a while but not widely known about.

[stedebs]

I've taken a zx6r to france and back ......... wasn't a problem riding and fortunately hubby was along to carry all the luggage. It was also my daily commuter for the 15 or so miles to get to work and back. Prior to that I had a 1050 sprint....... I changed to the ninja for the weight ......... it was easier to manoeuver around in the garage and in the parking spaces at work.

 

[Bender]

Not owned a large bike but have ridden a few, on my 600 with pillion there is still a noticeable difference in performance. So gaps you wouldn't think twice about on your own suddenly become thought provoking, on a ltr there is still more power than you need.

[fastbob]

Get an ER5 . Marvelous bikes and plenty around for £800 . 

[James in Brum]

I would Rob but I have my zzr600 and it is brilliant. 
pro’s of bigger bikes are that they have more power and are capable of more particularly in carrying stuff or pillion and still having ooomph. 
smaller bikes may have lower insurance. 
mot seems this crowd don’t identify many pros or cons other than that?

[Stu]

10 minutes ago, James in Brum said:

smaller bikes may have lower insurance.

 

Not always the case! 

 

£80 a year for basic insurance on the FJR 

and £90 for same cover on the BMW F650 which ironically is half the size and 3 cylinders less! 

 

Its all about risk and the theft risk of the BM is higher than the FJR for a start 

[Pie man]

MT07 v KTM 1290SAS. I commute on an MT07, small bike and bags of fun to ride. Its also a bike that has enough power and gives me the confidence to get out of trouble easily and quickly. Both feet flat footed and its very light and easy to manoeuvre, its an enjoyable ride home in the summer (its longer going home than going to work ) Hardly any difference in MPG between the MT and the KTM.  The MT to me feels roughly the size of a 125 but more fun to ride IMO. Could I tour on the MT07 'yes'.  Would I tour on it, 'probably only for a few days'. Would I carry pillion on the MT 'No'. Would I commute on the KTM 'No', its too big n heavy for town riding' Ideal for big mileage days and touring in comfort and can carry more than a credit card. With the KTM Its nice to know you have the power to accelerate up the twisties in the likes of the Alps with pillion and luggage, ample power, torque, speed and all day comfort. I have a friend who likes to tour in the Picos on his Honda Cub, I think he is mad, he loves it (we never tour together ) But that's just my tuppence, its each to their own isn't it.