When to stand your ground?

[Fiddlesticks]

Interesting little problem on the way home this evening. It involved a car driver trying to gun it onto a roundabout, trying to jump out in front of the person already on it (i.e. me).

 

Happens all the time, and usually it's just a case of rolling off the throttle while the moron pushing his way out makes himself scarce. It's bad manners, particularly when done to a more vulnerable road user, but c'est la vie. Often it's just poor judgement or bad road skills. I tend to let it go without even sounding the horn. What would be the  point?  They know you're there, and they are in front of you by now anyway.

 

Tonight, though, bit different. She'd seen me. Reflective vest, spot lights on, no question. She had decided to ram her way onto the roundabout, at speed, anyway. Yes, the approaching motorcyclist would be forced to brake pretty hard in the wet, but so what, the important factor was that extra two seconds on her journey.

 

Quite frankly, I was irked.  Not completely ticked off, but certainly somewhere beyond miffed.

 

So, split second decision. Brake and wait, or ride on positively with no increase in speed, sound the horn and assume the priority that should have been yielded.

 

I chose the latter, knowing that she knew I was there and wouldn't want the paperwork of running me over. She slammed on the brakes a little later than I expected, which I took to be thinking time, plus time to get her head around the fact that I wasn't about to be bullied off the road, plus braking time.

 

I slowed, turned to look at her, shook my head and rode off.

 

But now what's bothering me is this: On the one hand, I knowingly rode into danger. And that's bad. On the other hand, strong communication of intention to follow the rules of the road, and not to allow a more confused situation to develop.

 

There's a fine line between recklessness and confidence.

 

Thoughts?

[S-Westerly]

Brave, understandable but..... had the idiot failed to react quickly enough which is quite possible you could potentially have been in a world of hurt. Probably not worth it. Personally I'd prefer to let the idiot push in then serenely waft past them at the next stoppage. Possibly with a gesture of disapproval as I pass.

Edited December 5, 2024 by S-Westerly

[Simon Davey]

Difficult to judge without seeing it but..... 

I reckon that your split second and subconscious decision making probably knew you made the right choice. 

Edited December 5, 2024 by Simon Davey

[bonio]

I've done something similar. Too many times tbh. If there was room, I reckon you'd have done better to put some throttle on and make sure you were safe.

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

36 minutes ago, S-Westerly said:

Brave, understandable but..... had the idiot failed to react quickly enough which is quite possible you could potentially have been in a world of hurt. Probably not worth it. Personally I'd prefer to let the idiot push in then serenely waft past them at the next stoppage. Possibly with a gesture of disapproval as I pass.

I second this entirely. But I will admit that at times I have fallen to the temptation to hold my ground when doing so meant a conflict between a motorbike and 2 tons of SUV - and we all know who comes out that the better side up.

[RideWithStyles]

Holding your ground and doing right is right as rules and guidelines are their for a reason but the world general populace doesnt see things as black and white when people and attitudes are involved.

The other aspect of it which can ingrained to the dim driver of lazy attitude - of well that worked that time I’ll do/can do it again and it will be fine probably the next driver or motorcyclist won’t be lucky and end up injured or dead….

[Fiddlesticks]

10 minutes ago, RideWithStyles said:

The other aspect of it which can ingrained to the dim driver of lazy attitude - of well that worked that time I’ll do/can do it again and it will be fine probably the next driver or motorcyclist won’t be lucky and end up injured or dead….

True. Rewarding bad behaviour is something that goes against the grain.

[daveinlim]

I see this behaviour daily. A common one is on a motorway overpass. The left lane is very clearly signposted to be left only but every other day there is someone who will turn right, not even going straight on and cut across 2 lanes that are going straight over the roundabout. 

 

Another is at local set of lights. Left lane goes left only. Middle lane straight on and right lane right. Simple! Very few go left so the usual Audi, BMW, AMG crowd go to the left lane and when the lights turn green they gun it forward. 

 

Sometimes I foolishly hold my course but that could end poorly one day. 

 

Better to be safe and alive and let the idiot past than be right but sliding down the road on your arse 

[RideWithStyles]

1 hour ago, daveinlim said:

I see this behaviour daily. A common one is on a motorway overpass. The left lane is very clearly signposted to be left only but every other day there is someone who will turn right, not even going straight on and cut across 2 lanes that are going straight over the roundabout. 

 

Another is at local set of lights. Left lane goes left only. Middle lane straight on and right lane right. Simple! Very few go left so the usual Audi, BMW, AMG crowd go to the left lane and when the lights turn green they gun it forward. 

 

Sometimes I foolishly hold my course but that could end poorly one day. 

 

Better to be safe and alive and let the idiot past than be right but sliding down the road on your arse 

Most of the ones and habits near me are reversed…on the right lane but prepared to cut across two lanes to the left within meters to go left, main road or motorways..

that habit I think is made worse by middle lane dawdlers. 

[S-Westerly]

GPS has a lot to answer for i think. People following it and diving off at last minute regardless of traffic in intervening lanes.

[RideWithStyles]

That’s not gps that driver error.

[rob m]

1 hour ago, S-Westerly said:

GPS has a lot to answer for i think. People following it and diving off at last minute regardless of traffic in intervening lanes.

 

Spot on. Seen many drivers who drive by their GPS and cut across lanes at the last minute. The classic is when they're in the left lane going straight on at a roundabout and all of a sudden they cut across you to turn right. Happened many times to me. I expect it now and am extra vigilant if I see a car to the left of me. 

 

A colleague of mine at work drives with her sat nav and can't even remember the trip from our HQ to another base which is 2 miles away even though she's done it hundreds of times. She told me (after I spent a trip digging my fingernails into the dashboard) that it is what she was taught on her driving lessons. She spends more time looking at the GPS screen than through the windscreen. I insist on driving now.

 

I also use the M25 frequently and have seen drivers with an ipad on their steering wheel watching Netflix. This is what we're up against these days.

[Mickly]

15 hours ago, Fiddlesticks said:

Interesting little problem on the way home this evening. It involved a car driver trying to gun it onto a roundabout, trying to jump out in front of the person already on it (i.e. me).

 

Happens all the time, and usually it's just a case of rolling off the throttle while the moron pushing his way out makes himself scarce. It's bad manners, particularly when done to a more vulnerable road user, but c'est la vie. Often it's just poor judgement or bad road skills. I tend to let it go without even sounding the horn. What would be the  point?  They know you're there, and they are in front of you by now anyway.

 

Tonight, though, bit different. She'd seen me. Reflective vest, spot lights on, no question. She had decided to ram her way onto the roundabout, at speed, anyway. Yes, the approaching motorcyclist would be forced to brake pretty hard in the wet, but so what, the important factor was that extra two seconds on her journey.

 

Quite frankly, I was irked.  Not completely ticked off, but certainly somewhere beyond miffed.

 

So, split second decision. Brake and wait, or ride on positively with no increase in speed, sound the horn and assume the priority that should have been yielded.

 

I chose the latter, knowing that she knew I was there and wouldn't want the paperwork of running me over. She slammed on the brakes a little later than I expected, which I took to be thinking time, plus time to get her head around the fact that I wasn't about to be bullied off the road, plus braking time.

 

I slowed, turned to look at her, shook my head and rode off.

 

But now what's bothering me is this: On the one hand, I knowingly rode into danger. And that's bad. On the other hand, strong communication of intention to follow the rules of the road, and not to allow a more confused situation to develop.

 

There's a fine line between recklessness and confidence.

 

Thoughts?

Although I agree with the sentiment, you don’t want “It was my right of way” engraved on your tombstone 

[Bender]

I see where your coming from and believe me I've made some truly bad decisions for standing my ground in hindsight that is, luckily I've survived them all but it would be so easy to end up with nil by mouth sign above a bed......

 

 its always always easier to look back and think ohh that probably wasn't wise as opposed to a split second decision.

 

The safer option is always just let it go and don't put yourself into positions where your going to come off worse, easier said than done.

[onesea]

16 hours ago, Fiddlesticks said:

Interesting little problem on the way home this evening. It involved a car driver trying to gun it onto a roundabout, trying to jump out in front of the person already on it (i.e. me).

 

Happens all the time, and usually it's just a case of rolling off the throttle while the moron pushing his way out makes himself scarce. It's bad manners, particularly when done to a more vulnerable road user, but c'est la vie. Often it's just poor judgement or bad road skills. I tend to let it go without even sounding the horn. What would be the  point?  They know you're there, and they are in front of you by now anyway.

 

Tonight, though, bit different. She'd seen me. Reflective vest, spot lights on, no question. She had decided to ram her way onto the roundabout, at speed, anyway. Yes, the approaching motorcyclist would be forced to brake pretty hard in the wet, but so what, the important factor was that extra two seconds on her journey.

 

Quite frankly, I was irked.  Not completely ticked off, but certainly somewhere beyond miffed.

 

So, split second decision. Brake and wait, or ride on positively with no increase in speed, sound the horn and assume the priority that should have been yielded.

 

I chose the latter, knowing that she knew I was there and wouldn't want the paperwork of running me over. She slammed on the brakes a little later than I expected, which I took to be thinking time, plus time to get her head around the fact that I wasn't about to be bullied off the road, plus braking time.

 

I slowed, turned to look at her, shook my head and rode off.

 

But now what's bothering me is this: On the one hand, I knowingly rode into danger. And that's bad. On the other hand, strong communication of intention to follow the rules of the road, and not to allow a more confused situation to develop.

 

There's a fine line between recklessness and confidence.

 

Thoughts?

 

I think you made the right decision, no harm done. Dropping bike on slippery roundabout and she would just drive off, your loss.

 

I never turn my head (helmet) towards a driver waiting at a roundabout. 

I watch them 100% they rarely pullout, unless I turn my head/  helmet (try it).

 

However in the car I normally make eye contact with car driver.  Normally whilst accelerating or making my driving wild or exaggerated, same for junctions. 

 

At Junctions on the bike I deliberately swerve to position so I can be seen and will be seen to turn my head to see them.

 

Seems to work for me some of the time.

[Fiddlesticks]

All well thought out points. And all appreciated. These things are quite often marginal and judgement calls made in the moment are best examined afterwards on a couple of levels. Not only the course of action taken, but attitude towards the other driver, impact and risk of it all not going to plan (in this case, no real danger of serious injury, but still... ), likelihood and benefit of it all working as intended. Also from the other angle. Submit, brake hard and skid, get rear-ended, drop the bike as the forks dive on a turn...

Sometimes there are only least worst options.

Still think my examiner would have probably given me a bollocking, but we'll never know.

[Bianco2564]

I like your scales of annoyance.

I've added a couple more.

 

5; Fuming, want to tear them a new one

4; Completely ticked off

3; Irked

2; Miffed

1; Chill, let it go

 

 

 

 

[onesea]

I am going to add a situation I am faced with almost daily. 

 

Routinely I ride and drive up this road. Cars barge past the road narrowing, into on coming traffic.

 

In the car I drive at them sensibly, leave just enough gap.  We all do the same and routinely get abuse.

 

 

 

On the bike its challenging, If you have to stop you are stuffed.

 

I think my record is 12 cars till one stopped. Being stopped by cars on one occasion a car tried to overtake me when a gap eventually appeared.  No surprise the car behind me felt it was my fault and gave abuse.

 

On the bright side going the other way I have nearly caused a few crashes whilst on the bike. 

 

There is a gap between the curb and road narrowing wide enough for the bike.  Ride on then nip through gap.  The on coming cars drive aggressively to stop you, the car behind trying to follow you. I have heard several squeals of brakes.

[bonio]

17 minutes ago, onesea said:

On the bright side, going the other way I have nearly caused a few crashes whilst on the bike. 

I appreciate a bloke who can see the good in a difficult situation

[Steve_M]

While I get the emotional reaction - I won’t pretend I haven’t done something similar at some point - the words of the copper who presented my Safe Rider course back in 1992 still echo around my head. “No matter who has priority, you’re the one who ends up in hospital when it all goes wrong”.

 

 

[RideWithStyles]

And he’ll be the one to state that you should of “expected it” and “stopped in time” even if you had priority, right of way and correct of what you did, your insurance with say you should take a percentage off the claim….oh how does that teach the mofo who did wrong? Its like when parents teach kids bad behaviour….

[onesea]

On 05/12/2024 at 20:34, bonio said:

I appreciate a bloke who can see the good in a difficult situation

You don’t work for the press?  Looking for sound bites
 

 

Edited December 6, 2024 by onesea

[Terry Came]

The main danger to this is that you have no idea of the condition of the other driver. Were they 'stressed' so have self medicated with pot or perhaps coke? Are they so busy on their phone that they simply haven't seen you? The last thing you want is to be confronted by 'Dylan' from the Magic Roundabout. 'Like er, what that screaming, grinding sound man? Why won't the car go?' We know they are out there. Take care and stay safe. 

[Fender1515]

9 hours ago, Terry Came said:

The main danger to this is that you have no idea of the condition of the other driver. Were they 'stressed' so have self medicated with pot or perhaps coke? Are they so busy on their phone that they simply haven't seen you? The last thing you want is to be confronted by 'Dylan' from the Magic Roundabout. 'Like er, what that screaming, grinding sound man? Why won't the car go?' We know they are out there. Take care and stay safe. 

I tend to agree with Terry's comments here. So often the rules/laws of driving on the road, that have been defined in order to ensure road use is safe, is blatantly and purposely ignored,  some dumb arses will use the road, in which any way the chose that suits them. Trying to second guess if they will/wont abided by the rules is high risk IMO.  I personally find this emotionally challenging, in as much as I don't find it easy to let folks take the piss. BUT, I always remeber a shared wisdom from an elderly IAM instructor, who incidentally was a very quick rider, "think of it this way, everybody in a motor vehicle is out to kill you, if you stop them from killing you, you win"  I try and ensure I am in a winning situation. As has been said, if I feel the need to reclaim the 20 feet of road I let them take from me, on two wheels, there are always plenty of opportunities!

It is a sad fact, that so many folks believe they can act with impunity, there are negligible consequences for their actions, so as rule, I tend to work on the basis, if in my intuition, assessment the driver can put in a position of danger, they probably will. So how do I WIN