F1......

[Six30]

[billy sugger]

12 minutes ago, Six30 said:

Where's the rofl emoji when you want it

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

Since the races are now subject to the vagaries of one man I suggest that in 2022 all teams submit a photograph of their car and Masi picks a winner on the basis of which is the prettiest.

 

This will save a lot of bother and disappointing those who follow F1 as a Motorsport.

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

I had lunch today with Jonathan Palmer so asked him for his take on the outcome. As a former F1 driver and CEO of MotorSportVision he takes an active role in motorsport. It was an interesting response - he acknowledged that Hamilton had led most of the race and would almost certainly have won if Latifi hadn't crashed causing a safety car to come out. However he said racing drivers accepted that if a safety car is needed then the field bunches up and in that situation the leader loses their advantage. That is bad luck but it's the risk drivers accept as part and parcel of motor racing.

 

Had the lapped cars been allowed to overtake earlier, as would usually happen, Verstappen would have been right behind Hamilton. So whilst the decision was muddled it probably didn't affect the outcome of the race as given there was a safety car situation that was just bad luck for the leader. 

 

The decision was bodged and handled badly, but in his view it was a safety car incident and whilst bad luck for Hamilton not something that an appeal is going to change.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MikeHorton]

Looks like the pitstop timing worked in the favour of Red Bull I'm thinking there is an element of luck and strategy as well as driver skill. I know there's a lot in the press and it's a Lewis or Max type viewpoint but it was the closest season for a long time I guess. Hamilton will most likely be more hungry for taking the crown back next year but have potentially a tougher team mate too. 

[Bender]

45 minutes ago, MikeHorton said:

Looks like the pitstop timing worked in the favour of Red Bull I'm thinking there is an element of luck and strategy as well as driver skill. I know there's a lot in the press and it's a Lewis or Max type viewpoint but it was the closest season for a long time I guess. Hamilton will most likely be more hungry for taking the crown back next year but have potentially a tougher team mate too. 

Botas has been far too inconsistent, roll on next season 

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

43 minutes ago, Bender said:

Botas has been far too inconsistent, roll on next season 

Hmm...not sure if this means Bottas or Boris. 

[Bender]

2 minutes ago, Mississippi Bullfrog said:

Hmm...not sure if this means Bottas or Boris. 

Not much difference  

[Steve_M]

1 hour ago, Mississippi Bullfrog said:

I had lunch today with Jonathan Palmer so asked him for his take on the outcome. As a former F1 driver and CEO of MotorSportVision he takes an active role in motorsport. It was an interesting response - he acknowledged that Hamilton had led most of the race and would almost certainly have won if Latifi hadn't crashed causing a safety car to come out. However he said racing drivers accepted that if a safety car is needed then the field bunches up and in that situation the leader loses their advantage. That is bad luck but it's the risk drivers accept as part and parcel of motor racing.

 

Had the lapped cars been allowed to overtake earlier, as would usually happen, Verstappen would have been right behind Hamilton. So whilst the decision was muddled it probably didn't affect the outcome of the race as given there was a safety car situation that was just bad luck for the leader. 

 

The decision was bodged and handled badly, but in his view it was a safety car incident and whilst bad luck for Hamilton not something that an appeal is going to change.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It’s good to get an independent expert view. Thanks for sharing. 
 

[S-Westerly]

34 minutes ago, Bender said:

Not much difference  

I'd like to see Boris squeeze into an F1 car. Be like a cork in a bottle.

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

Looking at the people I've spoken to and listened to they fall into two broad camps. Those for whom F1 is a commercial event think the outcome is OK because it has raised the profile of F1. Those who see it as a sport think it's a bad result because it's unsporting.

 

I think my conclusion is that Masi was driven by commercial instincts first and foremost and to have the title decided under a safety car wasn't what F1 needed.

 

However, in the long run a sport that becomes too obviously run on commercial lines will lose fans because people generally aren't mugs.

[MikeHorton]

Makes sense and everything sporting wise seems to come down to sponsorship and how much money you can squeeze out of the public. I stopped watching F1 in the Schumacher years just thought I know the result before the race is run. For many years there's never a tight competition and it's very rarely shown on terrestrial TV. Bit like football it's all commercial and for profit. Example I had corporate tickets for wolves West ham last year friends from London coming up and the fixture got changed last minute Saturday to Sunday for Sky. I couldn't get that day off and missed out,  no regard for the fans. I was lucky no change this year and had a good day with my West ham chums even better as Wolves managed a win. I grew up being able to go to a sporting event which was affordable and if not could watch on the TV. Feel sorry for children today as they can't grow up watching their sporting idols unless parents have money and there lies the pressure on parents to be able to find the money. And my final rant I don't like the constant link in sport to gambling it can destroy as many lives in some way as tobacco sponsorship did but that wasn't ethical but the gambling and booze sponsorship is?

[MikeHorton]

Saturdays were great for sport! 

[Fozzie]

I was absolutely stunned, firstly by Mercedes pitting strategy. With that lead, all they had to do was mirror Verstappen's strategy, as they had the faster car (or at least the faster driver). 

 

Then I was stunned by the safety car rules by Masi, he needs sacking for what happened there. Imagine in football, the rules for penalties were changed as they were being taken, and that is what you had here. 

They only cleared the cars between Lewis and Max, as they knew the time required to do it for all the cars would have meant the race finished under a safety car to get the pack in order. So I understand why Mercedes are going to the courts over this, the rules were simply not followed, and the change to them altered the outcome of the race. However this wasn't the only race where this happened, and I am far from a Lewis fan, more a FIA critic. 

 

You had two great drivers this season, completely undermined by the FIA, in my opinion

[husoi]

Since F1 has become a stupidly profitable business where FIA takes money from everywhere and everyone I lost interest.

 

People that become drivers not because they are skilled but because daddy have deep filled pockets and rules are changed every 15min...

[S-Westerly]

5 hours ago, husoi said:

Since F1 has become a stupidly profitable business where FIA takes money from everywhere and everyone I lost interest.

 

People that become drivers not because they are skilled but because daddy have deep filled pockets and rules are changed every 15min...

Doesn't really apply to Hamilton as his father didn't have deep pockets at all. Even Verstappen wasn't that well off and his father certainly force fed him racing from a very young age.

[Joe85]

On 13/12/2021 at 16:54, Mississippi Bullfrog said:

I had lunch today with Jonathan Palmer so asked him for his take on the outcome. As a former F1 driver and CEO of MotorSportVision he takes an active role in motorsport. It was an interesting response - he acknowledged that Hamilton had led most of the race and would almost certainly have won if Latifi hadn't crashed causing a safety car to come out. However he said racing drivers accepted that if a safety car is needed then the field bunches up and in that situation the leader loses their advantage. That is bad luck but it's the risk drivers accept as part and parcel of motor racing.

 

Had the lapped cars been allowed to overtake earlier, as would usually happen, Verstappen would have been right behind Hamilton. So whilst the decision was muddled it probably didn't affect the outcome of the race as given there was a safety car situation that was just bad luck for the leader. 

 

The decision was bodged and handled badly, but in his view it was a safety car incident and whilst bad luck for Hamilton not something that an appeal is going to change.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jonathan Palmer seems to lack a fundamental understanding of F1, then. 

It’s widely agreed that if standard convention was followed, one of two things should have occurred:

 

1) Lapped cars were not allowed to unlap and we go racing. Max would not have caught Lewis in 1 lap due to time lost passing the lapped cars. 

 

2) ALL lapped cars unlap themselves and the safety car pits the following lap. The race would have finished under the safety car.
 

It’s that simple. By only allowing those cars between Lewis and Max to unlap, AND to immediately pit the safety car was a gross manipulation of the rules and  engineering of the race heavily in favour of Verstappen whilst giving Hamilton absolutely no chance of defending his lead. 
 

It’s an absolute disgrace. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Joe85

[Joe85]

10 hours ago, Fozzie said:

I was absolutely stunned, firstly by Mercedes pitting strategy. With that lead, all they had to do was mirror Verstappen's strategy, as they had the faster car (or at least the faster driver). 

 

Then I was stunned by the safety car rules by Masi, he needs sacking for what happened there. Imagine in football, the rules for penalties were changed as they were being taken, and that is what you had here. 

They only cleared the cars between Lewis and Max, as they knew the time required to do it for all the cars would have meant the race finished under a safety car to get the pack in order. So I understand why Mercedes are going to the courts over this, the rules were simply not followed, and the change to them altered the outcome of the race. However this wasn't the only race where this happened, and I am far from a Lewis fan, more a FIA critic. 

 

You had two great drivers this season, completely undermined by the FIA, in my opinion

Merc actually did mirror Red Bulls Strategy. However, once the safety cars come into play, virtual or otherwise, they’re between a rock and a hard place. You could argue that under the VSC they had an opportunity to give up track position and be fast enough, with enough laps remaining, to re-take the lead from Verstappen, and under normal racing conditions i’d agree. But to put yourself in a situation where Verstappen only has to open the steering wheel going into a corner, taking both Hamilton and himself out of the race to become world champ, it was a no brainier to stay out. 
 

As for the second actual safety car, there’s no way in hell you’d relinquish the lead of the race with 5 laps to go. It was entire;y reasonable to assume the rules would be followed and either lapped could would not be allowed to unlap themselves, or the race would be finished under the safety car. In both circumstances, Lewis is gifting the WDC to Verstappen. 
 

 

[Joe85]

I’m genuinely disgusted. Even a few days after it f**king riles me up thinking about it. Don’t think I can bring myself to watch F1 again.

[S-Westerly]

It was a complete stitch up for Verstappen and renders F1 about as credible as American wrestling. Choreographed "sport".

[DuRavary]

The ultimate example of how the leading car doesn’t have the luxury that the other cars do under safety car or vsc was the GP earlier this year where at the restart Lewis Hamilton was the only car on the grid. Every car behind him pitted to change tyres. He could not pit because their pit box was at the start of the pit Lane and he would have been unable to leave because of the stream of cars coming in after him. Saying that Mercedes was wrong not to follow the Red Bull strategy shows a lack of understanding. 

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

7 minutes ago, DuRavary said:

The ultimate example of how the leading car doesn’t have the luxury that the other cars do under safety car or vsc was the GP earlier this year where at the restart Lewis Hamilton was the only car on the grid. Every car behind him pitted to change tyres. He could not pit because their pit box was at the start of the pit Lane and he would have been unable to leave because of the stream of cars coming in after him. Saying that Mercedes was wrong not to follow the Red Bull strategy shows a lack of understanding. 

Precisely. Hamilton didn't have the option of pitting after the Latifi crash because he'd have lost track position. Verstappen was already on newer tyres, so if Hamilton pitted Verstappen would have stayed out and inherited the lead. It was the classic case where the guy following is in the better position. 

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

User the FIA have agreed to look into what happened, which as near an admission that it wasn't right as we're going to get.

 

Tough on Hamilton but I can't see that an appeal could make things better. I suppose he will have to console himself with the few bob he earns. At least over the winter he can moonlight driving a delivery truck, there's plenty of work going for someone with a licence.

[Joe85]

22 minutes ago, Mississippi Bullfrog said:

User the FIA have agreed to look into what happened, which as near an admission that it wasn't right as we're going to get.

 

Tough on Hamilton but I can't see that an appeal could make things better. I suppose he will have to console himself with the few bob he earns. At least over the winter he can moonlight driving a delivery truck, there's plenty of work going for someone with a licence.

Yep, and some pretty strong condemnation from Toto Wolff, too. 

 

Personally, i think some backroom agreement has been struck. Masi will fade away quietly and Merc have probably been given some sort of payout. Think Ferrari and losing all performance in their ICE overnight following the 2019 season. 

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

4 minutes ago, Joe85 said:

Yep, and some pretty strong condemnation from Toto Wolff, too. 

 

Personally, i think some backroom agreement has been struck. Masi will fade away quietly and Merc have probably been given some sort of payout. Think Ferrari and losing all performance in their ICE overnight following the 2019 season. 

You are surely not suggesting that Ferrari were being a bit naughty ......

 

But I think you're right. A deal has been done which the fans will never know about. After all, they're the least important people in F1.