Sorry state of affairs - sports bikes

[geofferz]

My local mv dealer (alfs motorcycles worthing) is no longer an mv dealer. My local ducati dealer (P&H motors Crawley) is no longer a ducati dealer. They picked up norton who do sell a sports bike but it's 60k...

 

P&h don't have a single new faired sports bike in store. They're a yamaha, kawasaki, suzuki, ktm and honda dealer. They had an r7 (barely counts), but no r1, no ninja 6r or 10r (they had the 400), and no fireblade. Suzuki and ktm don't make sports bikes. 

 

Sad times. 

Edited August 15, 2023 by geofferz

[Steve_M]

It’s a direction the UK has been heading in for some while. I’m guessing that  the biking community having an aging demographic, comfort starts becoming a factor. And how we use the bikes, too. I don’t think we’re quite into bike motorsport in the same way we’re we’re when Foggy was dominating WSB, Or am I not aware of that enthusiasm because I no longer read the biking press? 

[fullscreenaging]

It’s to do with Euro Emissions targets also. 

[manxie49]

Our local Yamaha dealer, who recently and very sadly, closed down, got to point where he just wasn't really carrying any stock of the sportier R1 or R6 bikes.  Even the MT10  I had was really a one off, ex demo.  Why, because he just wasn't shifting them.  He was selling lots of the KTM enduro bikes, and mainly commuters and the odd tourer.  He basically changed his stock to cater for demand.   You'd think, living here, sports bikes would be in demand, but it doesn't seem to be the case.  Not really sure what it is, whether it be the cost of insurance, comfort factors, or as Steve_M says, an ageing demographic.  Things are certainly changing, sadly not all things are changing for the better.

[skyrider]

Hi manxie which is the dealer that has closed down  ?

[RideWithStyles]

To see it another way... bikes have gotten so much better, faster, lighter and to narrow minded  the the times but too much biased to the track ethos and racing regulations with less eyes to world legitimises that they no longer fit in the open world... its the chasing the racing that has harmed them hence the view of the r7 statements...

  

see it this way, late 1990-2000s R1 was hovering the 200kg mark with 120hp roughly way seen as a game changer and animal... even mid 2010 600s were considered junk if they rolled out with specs like that. 1000s now 250+hp well under 200kg more than hyabusas and tuned race bikes... with prices to match.

in a way i can see the 1000s soon dwindling some what even if they can keep the battery brigade at bay.

need to think of starting a fresh again really, if the manufacturers actually put some decent effort and stuff on smaller classes like they have to 1000's it could really jump it again but the bike market is sooo slow to do owt or see the bigger picture..

Another is a big reset of peoples minds could 600s or even 500s become the 1000s of today with a different thought using turbos and superchargers but i see legitimates with be closing to fast as batteries are closing in.

 

 to use the car world, engines are soo much smaller and much more powerful than even 7 years ago! 1.5ltrs cars are quick and faster that 2.5s only a few years ago, even 1ltrs are more than enough these days where as if it was less than 2ltr u might aswell get the bus..

 

thats my many thoughts on it anyway.

Edited August 18, 2023 by RideWithStyles
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[Fozzie]

The Aprilia RS660 is a twin that keeps pace with the 600cc inline 4's of old. Its midrange makes it a power house on tight tracks. 

I'm hoping the Yamaha R7 will close the gap a bit. And Kawasaki ditch that agricultural sounding 650, for a cross-plane. I think there is a market for super twin type bikes. They aren't V-twins anymore, which is a shame, but a cross-plane inline twin is close enough. 

 

But agree with the sentiments on the broader market. The selection just isn't there anymore. It's all aimed at an older demographic, who want something comfy. 

[RideWithStyles]

I like the look and sound of the rs660 though my titinus will disagree if i bought one, to a point its a first step to the same direction its always been going.

i was thinking more of the lines of 500s turbos as 1000 replacements and 250 turb or superchargers as 600 replacements sort of follow the car tech, it just that manufacturers are quite slow and lazy in away only do when pushed out of the nest.

 

Agreed but to my point is just isn't one thing, it so many...racing reg, manufacturing, road license, world domestic legislation, peoples mind sets...

 

[geofferz]

Re the car comparison yeah a 2 litre can now make 500bhp and I'm cool with that. But, they're not making fast, sporty bikes at all. R7 makes 72bhp which is less than the training bike you get on a das. Ninja 4r makes more at 77bhp, and at least it's a fun revvy 4 cylinder. If it made 110 I'd actually be quite happy, but alas. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by geofferz

[Mississippi Bullfrog]

Look at any biker meeting and the vast majority are old farts like me. The generation who realised sports bike are uncomfortable. The manufacturers are making bikes for the people who are buying them. 

 

A few of my mates getting back into bikes bought sport models and then got rid within a few months. 

[RideWithStyles]

Also to note youngys dont meet and talk with others outside in the real world.... itz done only on tictock and tinder

[billy sugger]

I'm 63,and my current steed is now getting a bit uncomfortable to ride over long distances. My commute to work is 23 miles either way, and when I go to get off my left knee clicks and  hurts and both hands and wrists are stiffening up

[bud]

The Kawasaki ninja ZX-R is coming back to the uk as a 2024 model. Not sure how many they might sell though.

When Yamaha brought back the newer styled R6, it didn't exactly set the sales charts alight.

Nice to see a sports bike brought back from the dead though.

Edited August 21, 2023 by bud

[geofferz]

23 minutes ago, bud said:

The Kawasaki ninja ZX-R is coming back to the uk as a 2024 model. Not sure how many they might sell though.

When Yamaha brought back the newer styled R6, it didn't exactly set the sales charts alight.

Nice to see a sports bike brought back from the dead though.

Yeah I'm sure the reason they're not selling them is cos no one is buying them. That's the sorry state of affairs! 

[geofferz]

On 20/08/2023 at 01:53, billy sugger said:

I'm 63,and my current steed is now getting a bit uncomfortable to ride over long distances. My commute to work is 23 miles either way, and when I go to get off my left knee clicks and  hurts and both hands and wrists are stiffening up

Sure, commuters are necessary, for me sports bikes are biking for passion - like a ferrari or something. Their demise makes me sad

[geofferz]

26 minutes ago, bud said:

The Kawasaki ninja ZX-R is coming back to the uk as a 2024 model. Not sure how many they might sell though.

When Yamaha brought back the newer styled R6, it didn't exactly set the sales charts alight.

Nice to see a sports bike brought back from the dead though.

Yeah the ninja 600 is still going, but my dealer doesn't have any in! 

[RideWithStyles]

Think it would be if you placed the deposit first in advance and they asked for the allocation from kawa europe it would happen. 
 

sure the racers and the flush track dayers usually get hold of them, thats their usual customer bracket.

Edited August 21, 2023 by RideWithStyles
G

[bud]

On 21/08/2023 at 10:55, RideWithStyles said:

Think it would be if you placed the deposit first in advance and they asked for the allocation from kawa europe it would happen. 
 

sure the racers and the flush track dayers usually get hold of them, thats their usual customer bracket.

That's why Yamaha started the GYTR program and others have similar program where you can buy for the track only.

[Fleck]

All my biking buddies (in their 50s) have got adventure bikes. Very popular at the moment but don't do anything for me. 

I've got a Hornet 750 and Duke 390 at the minute

[RideWithStyles]

Exactly for the track only.... not much use for the public road buyer.

 

maybe MSV might aswell fill the grid  full of another one make series or a gaggle of adventure bikes, sports tyres like rosso4

s, sports touring tyres for intermediates (Angel gt2) and wets can be knobblies.

[Tiggie]

China are moving up to 1ltr bikes now 

 

cfmoto V4 

 

Still in production for now 

 

[RideWithStyles]

Still in production?? U mean design and testing?

it may take a good few years/generations to get anywhere near the established big players, it might raise a few brows and maybe push a buttons if they can actually make it not be problematic.

if memory serves me correctly the engine (or half of it?) was from the doomed terrible design, mismanagement of the Norton saga? will be is an exact copy (china default) rather than an actual redesign of one or even possibly a new home made design?

be interesting to place bets on what goes first on them... electrics, explosive detonation or rust...

Wish it well all the same.

[Stu]

On 21/08/2023 at 10:55, RideWithStyles said:

sure the racers and the flush track dayers usually get hold of them, thats their usual customer bracket.

 

That's not actually true! 

 

You do get race teams buying new bikes but these are the professionals with loads of money it's not a patch on the sales figures to the public. 

 

After bikes have been out a while you will get people buying them second hand for track days and racing. 

 

They are bringing back a whole new series in connection with bennetts bsb for the zx400r but again they will need loads of money! You're talking 16k for each race bike. 

 

Hopefully this gives things a nudge in the right direction for sales but I'm very doubtful as the younger generation are put off from bikes due to all the restrictions in place. 

[RideWithStyles]

This discussion to start with was road going public use bikes from dealers now were going onto race teams....I think there is a confusion between a road bike, a track day and a race bike which has many grades of usefulness to each requirement.

as a road bike to a public buying customer is harder to judge the numbers and dealers dont want loads sitting around. So these will be registered.

track days ones are mostly used from different previous users with less that comes from a dealer nut not to be ruled out.
alot of race bikes are still dealer supplied from the start.The race bikes to supply the teams are easier for the manufacturer to know how many numbers to allocate for a region at the start of a season and what back up to have.

These bikes to most teams (unless tour budget is huge) are just normal road bikes that are supplied then its up to the team to strip it and exchange parts as they see fit or budget to... with the likes of even pbm, they buy in a spec that they want from the start and support they receive from the manufacturer with agreements in place. Theae will nit be registered so numbers are harer to work out for normal people.

 

Yea the numbers for race teams wont keep a manufacturer going on that income alone on just bikes without the public buy in too but it goes both ways.
just a single year teams bring in a lot of money to the bank with bikes every year plus in replacing parts (parts vary to oem to aftermarket depending on race series) when the riders crash it. Its all anout looking at it from the big picture when tou bring them all together but if there is a dwindling buying public road user just for ownership every 3 ir more years and a oil change yearly just to keep a dealer interested.

yea those zx400's will be race ready price..race bikes aint cheap and even superstocks are not cheap, never has been. even just the starting parts like change of body work, forks £1000-2000 pair, shocks£1000-2000 each , brakes  £1000+ and pads every session/ day, wheels (£1000+one pair) plus Add spares and sets ready for wets and two sets of tyre warmers minimum, tyres at least three sets of drys for a meet if ar the back of the grid, plus remaps or flashes to the ecu, changing it to race regulations adds cost. Oil changes every meet and beake fluid changes..Not to forget spares...

 

i know a mate who had a r6 race bike in the paddock, £25k just for that bike with only what it had bolted on at the time ready to roll... so for race teams and topend track dayer buying the bike is the cheapest thing, putting stuff on it and actually running it is the most expensive part...unlike the average road user which is rhe other way round.

Edited August 29, 2023 by RideWithStyles

[Stu]

9 hours ago, RideWithStyles said:

This discussion to start with was road going public use bikes from dealers now were going onto race teams....I think there is a confusion between a road bike, a track day and a race bike which has many grades of usefulness to each requirement.

as a road bike to a public buying customer is harder to judge the numbers and dealers dont want loads sitting around. So these will be registered.

track days ones are mostly used from different previous users with less that comes from a dealer nut not to be ruled out.
alot of race bikes are still dealer supplied from the start.The race bikes to supply the teams are easier for the manufacturer to know how many numbers to allocate for a region at the start of a season and what back up to have.

These bikes to most teams (unless tour budget is huge) are just normal road bikes that are supplied then its up to the team to strip it and exchange parts as they see fit or budget to... with the likes of even pbm, they buy in a spec that they want from the start and support they receive from the manufacturer with agreements in place. Theae will nit be registered so numbers are harer to work out for normal people.

 

Yea the numbers for race teams wont keep a manufacturer going on that income alone on just bikes without the public buy in too but it goes both ways.
just a single year teams bring in a lot of money to the bank with bikes every year plus in replacing parts (parts vary to oem to aftermarket depending on race series) when the riders crash it. Its all anout looking at it from the big picture when tou bring them all together but if there is a dwindling buying public road user just for ownership every 3 ir more years and a oil change yearly just to keep a dealer interested.

yea those zx400's will be race ready price..race bikes aint cheap and even superstocks are not cheap, never has been. even just the starting parts like change of body work, forks £1000-2000 pair, shocks£1000-2000 each , brakes  £1000+ and pads every session/ day, wheels (£1000+one pair) plus Add spares and sets ready for wets and two sets of tyre warmers minimum, tyres at least three sets of drys for a meet if ar the back of the grid, plus remaps or flashes to the ecu, changing it to race regulations adds cost. Oil changes every meet and beake fluid changes..Not to forget spares...

 

i know a mate who had a r6 race bike in the paddock, £25k just for that bike with only what it had bolted on at the time ready to roll... so for race teams and topend track dayer buying the bike is the cheapest thing, putting stuff on it and actually running it is the most expensive part...unlike the average road user which is rhe other way round.

 

We are still on about road going machines that racers can buy  

 

Its this what feeds the young uns in to buying the sports bike when the racers are winning the races they young ones have to have the "fastest" bike 

 

The ZX4RR will have race spec from the factory and is basically a road going bike with a slightly different map and some little extra goodies for the track 

 

This is the bike they will be using 

 

 

 

Pics taken at Thruxton a couple of weeks ago while I was there 

 

There is nothing special about this bike and they aren't allowed to do anything to it either! 

 

Its a new series they are running called British Superteens all the same bikes and spec out the factory and road going 

 

Just like they did in the late 90's early 2000's with the Virgin R6 cup which made the R6 numbers boom 

 

The point I am making is what's getting raced is what the young ones want to ride but these days its all factory spec bikes with loads of money thrown at them