S-Westerly Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 56 minutes ago, Mississippi Bullfrog said: Which is why I asked about the starter system. On both mine the engine will fire if it's in gear so long as the clutch is pulled in. The reason being if you stall it you can get it going again quickly, at a junction for example. It won't fire in gear if the clutch isn't pulled in for obvious reasons, that's when you end up in a heap. Ditto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 1 hour ago, fastbob said: But you wouldn't want the starter to turn it IN GEAR because if it fired up you could end up in a heap on the floor . But thats the point! its not starting in gear with side stand up and clutch pulled when it should be 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six30 Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 6 pages and i could of sorted this halfway down first page .... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastbob Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Ian Frog said: I am also very confused as to what is going on with what is essentially a simple system. May I ask if you have tried putting the bike in gear and pulling the clutch lever in while being pushed along? Forget starting the engine for the moment let`s try and establish if the mechanism is functioning. If this can be done I would start to look at stand switches etc and if not I would suggest the clutch itself. @fastbob please tell me if you can think of a simpler way? Cheers Ian Well I'm glad I'm not the only one that's confused . If it were me I'd take all the clutch plates out again and inspect every one of them for warpage using the correct method . Once reassembled using copious amounts of oil , I'd put a zip tie around the clutch lever and with the bike in gear I'd wrestle the wheel around until I could see the inner and outer basket moving independently of each other . But all this seems pointless when the bike stalls when it's put into gear without lurching forward . Just out of interest , can anyone else with a reasonably sized four cylinder bike turn the back wheel by hand with the clutch pulled in ? Edited April 4, 2021 by fastbob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 18 minutes ago, fastbob said: Well I'm glad I'm not the only one that's confused . If it were me I'd take all the clutch plates out again and inspect every one of them for warpage using the correct method . Once reassembled using copious amounts of oil , I'd put a zip tie around the clutch lever and with the bike in gear I'd wrestle the wheel around until I could see the inner and outer basket moving independently of each other . But all this seems pointless when the bike stalls when it's put into gear without lurching forward . Just out of interest , can anyone else with a reasonably sized four cylinder bike turn the back wheel by hand with the clutch pulled in ? Wil go give my fazer a try in a mo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry1111 Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 15 minutes ago, fastbob said: Just out of interest , can anyone else with a reasonably sized four cylinder bike turn the back wheel by hand with the clutch pulled in ? XJ6. Tiny bit of friction when kicking my tyre with No 8 boot (when in 1st with clutch in). I could "just" tell it wasn't in neutral. Started the bike cold, put it in first, clutch in - back wheel rotating one rev every 5s. But then it rotates one rev every 10s when in neutral on centre stand anyway - which is interesting, some directional oil flow? From reading all this, I suspect side stand switch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 40 minutes ago, fastbob said: Just out of interest , can anyone else with a reasonably sized four cylinder bike turn the back wheel by hand with the clutch pulled in ? Not easily! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 Nope, solid clonk with clutch pulled in no chance of turning it by hand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mississippi Bullfrog Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 I can turn mine by hand with ease one handed, but they are both twins. The Triumph is a 1200 so it's a reasonable sized engine. But if Fazers generally can't then that test isn't relevant to the problem. In which case it's almost certainly a switch issue. And if it does it with the side stand up then my thinking is towards the clutch switch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bender Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 11 minutes ago, Mississippi Bullfrog said: I can turn mine by hand with ease one handed, but they are both twins. The Triumph is a 1200 so it's a reasonable sized engine. But if Fazers generally can't then that test isn't relevant to the problem. In which case it's almost certainly a switch issue. And if it does it with the side stand up then my thinking is towards the clutch switch. Pulling clutch on mine in gear on centre stand makes no difference it's always had a noticeable thump when you drop it into first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mississippi Bullfrog Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 1 minute ago, Bender said: Pulling clutch on mine in gear on centre stand makes no difference it's always had a noticeable thump when you drop it into first. Both mine thump going into first, but with clutch pulled in you can still turn the wheel by hand. There's always drag on bike clutches of course. Maybe the Fazer just has more than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James in Brum Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 Mine thumps into gear if revs are over 1500k. I cannot easily move the rear wheel whilst clutch pulled in and in gear. It’s a four cylinder. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedibiker Posted April 5, 2021 Author Share Posted April 5, 2021 17 hours ago, fastbob said: But you wouldn't want the starter to turn it IN GEAR because if it fired up you could end up in a heap on the floor . The clutch is pulled in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedibiker Posted April 5, 2021 Author Share Posted April 5, 2021 17 hours ago, Mississippi Bullfrog said: Which is why I asked about the starter system. On both mine the engine will fire if it's in gear so long as the clutch is pulled in. The reason being if you stall it you can get it going again quickly, at a junction for example. It won't fire in gear if the clutch isn't pulled in for obvious reasons, that's when you end up in a heap. clutch is pulled and I think he knows that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mississippi Bullfrog Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 Just wondering, why does it make a difference between a twin or a 4 cylinder in terms of clutch drag? Or are mine just unusual? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedibiker Posted April 5, 2021 Author Share Posted April 5, 2021 I think something has gone a miss here and maybe due to posts being read wrong, so thanks for the thoughts trying to figure this out but Il make a clear list here. With the Clutch pulled in, it wont start in gear. when put into gear it does jerk forward a little. Backwheel is hard to move when in gear And clutch pulled in, will move a little if move it back and forth. Ive tested the switched by bypassing and with a multimeter, both did what they are meant to as per online instructions. I mentioned testing the plates as per fastbobs advice, and asked why one side will sit flush (the sharp edge) and the rounded side isnt so flush. But, this could be how they are machined. If one side is flush, then no warpage. No evident wear as all ha the machined dots. The starter is fine, I only said it didn't work when the bike was in gear and clutch in. I mentioned early on that the springs are 4mm longer than spec, so have a new set coming just to get rid if that.. plates etc are all within haynes spec. The basket had the usual marks where plates sit, but didnt feel rough. I smoothed anyway to aid movement. At this point all I can think may be an issue is springs and if there is anything to go by with steel plates being flush one side and not the other. But if the sit flush on one side they can't be warped. I could also smooth out the fingers a little more, cant hurt. cheers all hilarious @Six30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mississippi Bullfrog Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 15 minutes ago, jedibiker said: clutch is pulled and I think he knows that Going off what others are saying about clutch drag on their bikes it seems being unable to move the rear wheel by hand isn't significant. In which case it looks like it's a switch issue and from what you've said probably the clutch switch. You ought to be able to operate the starter with bike in gear if the clutch is pulled in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedibiker Posted April 5, 2021 Author Share Posted April 5, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Mississippi Bullfrog said: Going off what others are saying about clutch drag on their bikes it seems being unable to move the rear wheel by hand isn't significant. In which case it looks like it's a switch issue and from what you've said probably the clutch switch. You ought to be able to operate the starter with bike in gear if the clutch is pulled in. if its a switch issue then its doing it past the switch as both have been tested and bypassed. I see moving the wheel isnt as good a test. I can free wheel my bandit with clutch in and in gear, its a good way to move it and use as a brake Edited April 5, 2021 by jedibiker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 Just a thought I know you have tested the switches and they work but are you getting continuity through the wiring? Is there voltage at the wiring if there needs to be? Some just earth out I am wondering if there is a break in a wire? You may have trapped one I don't think it's clutch related as it would still start and just spin the wheel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedibiker Posted April 5, 2021 Author Share Posted April 5, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stu said: Just a thought I know you have tested the switches and they work but are you getting continuity through the wiring? Is there voltage at the wiring if there needs to be? Some just earth out I am wondering if there is a break in a wire? You may have trapped one I don't think it's clutch related as it would still start and just spin the wheel The test I did was with the multimeter on the switch wiring. it showed 1, then when I made the switch function the figures changed. tested the clutch switch and side switch. does make me think the wire from the the connectors could be at fault based on replies so far. Just looked at wiring for the side stand switch and it seems to go through starter cut out relay.. Il have to have a check of all wires and even lever switch wire. Edited April 5, 2021 by jedibiker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastbob Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mississippi Bullfrog said: Just wondering, why does it make a difference between a twin or a 4 cylinder in terms of clutch drag? Or are mine just unusual? More plates usually . For example a GSXR 1100 has 10 friction plates whereas an ER5 only has 6 . Edited April 5, 2021 by fastbob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mississippi Bullfrog Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 1 hour ago, fastbob said: More plates usually . For example a GSXR 1100 has 10 friction plates whereas an ER5 only has 6 . I'll have to take a look how many the Bobber has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastbob Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 2 hours ago, Mississippi Bullfrog said: I'll have to take a look how many the Bobber has. You've got six friction plates and four springs . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mississippi Bullfrog Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 8 minutes ago, fastbob said: You've got six friction plates and four springs . It seems I have 8 friction plates and 3 springs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastbob Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 2 minutes ago, Mississippi Bullfrog said: It seems I have 8 friction plates and 3 springs. I must have been looking at the wrong engine then . Sorry about that . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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